Team Melli should be banned

[Bavafa]

It is true Saddam started the war but a real provocation was started by Khomeini!
Ebrahim Yazdi in one of his last interviews said, it came to the point that Saddam met Iranian ambassador in Baghdad and asked him to calm down Khomeini otherwise they find other way to deal with him, but as Khomeini said many times: اسلام و باید صادر کرد!
At the end poor people ended up with 8 years of miserable war!
same thing happened with his successor Khamenei!

Okay, Yazdi is a decent reference, I’ll give you that much. But you’re conflating two things that aren’t the same, and it’s kind of fundamental.

Provocation is not causation. Khomeini’s rhetoric made Saddam nervous, sure, everyone knows that. But nervous doesn’t mean invaded. By that logic every country that ever got attacked had it coming for existing too loudly. That’s not history, that’s just victim blaming with extra steps.

The Yazdi story is actually shooting you in the foot. If Saddam was still routing diplomatic messages through the Iranian ambassador asking Khomeini to calm down, he hadn’t run out of options yet. You don’t get to exhaust diplomacy and then walk away clean from the war you started.


And the idea of Saddam as a reluctant man of peace who got pushed too far is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. He wanted the Shatt al-Arab for years. He saw a country in post-revolutionary chaos and saw his shot. Khomeini gave him something to point at.

That’s called a pretext, not a cause.

[Super Shojaei]

Understood!

But I want to flag something for transparency: I was told to “get off the drugs” in a direct response to my post, which by any measure is a personal attack. No warning was issued there.

I didn’t attack anyone. I made a historical argument, acknowledged where my phrasing could have been read uncharitably, and asked for a counter-argument.

I don’t think you did anything wrong certain members like artaxexers have been spamming this forum for months and haven’t been getting any warnings whatsoever

there’s clear double standards here which will kill the forum the mods need to show some sort of self control and not let the events in Iran cause continued divide in the forum

I personally donate to keep the forum because the owners deserve it for their time sacrifice but what’s the point in wishing for unity in Iran when we can’t even simply have some form of unity on an internet forum - divide and conquer is what the elites want whether it be by religion , capitalist v socialist, dispora v natives - it’s all the political elites want is us to turn on each other which is what is happening now on this forum .

[Bavafa]

If one were to touch on the external forces in effect in Iran/Iraq war....US is but one influence. The narrative that big bad USA was a major player and gave the go ahead for the chemical weapons..that is revisionism...USA was one aspect of a huge and long war.

Who gave Iraq the ability to make the weapons? Germany and UK.
Who sold Iraq precursors chemicals and lab equipment.France, Italy, Netherlands
Who sold Iraq their armoured vehicles? Russia and China
Warplanes? Russia and France
Advanced war helicopters? France
State of the art rockets (Exocet)? France 812 of them!
Surface to Ship missiles (Silkworms)? China
SCUD missiles that rained on us? Russia
Money? Saudi, UAE and other PG states..to the tune of 35 to50 billion dollars (three times as much in today's money).

So yes, USA supported Iraq and blocked UN efforts in condemning chemical weapons use but so did other parties. France and USSR worked hard for Iraq not to get sanctions for chemical weapons use... because Iraq was a major customer. So European powers (and a whole host of Arab states) armed Iraq with chemical weapons and prevented condemnation of its actions.

Meanwhile at the same time...US started dealing with Iran, Reagan sent Khomeini an autographed Koran, US sold Iran Tow missiles and Anti aircraft parts.

Two nations with crazy leaders started fighting and everyone took advantage of it or at least pushed its own agenda.

What Blue Blood was saying is fairly correct...Saddam, the butcher of Baghdad, started the war. By june 1982 withdrew from all Iranian territory and at multiple junctures wanted a ceasefire or peace but Khomeini the butcher of Tehran did not agree. This is not revisionism..this is how I remember it. Fact check it.

Actually, we agree on more than you think. I never said the US was the only player. Go back and read what I wrote. The point was that a specific narrative, the one Blue Blood was pushing, erases external actors entirely and lands on “Khomeini’s war.” That’s the revisionism I called out. Not that America alone did it.

You’ve actually strengthened the argument. France, Germany, Russia, China, Saudi money, all of it. That’s exactly the point. This was a proxy playground for half the world and framing it as two crazy leaders who just couldn’t get along lets every single one of those actors off the hook. Conveniently.

And Iran-Contra doesn’t help the “big bad Khomeini” narrative either. Reagan sending an autographed Quran and TOW missiles to the same regime he was publicly denouncing tells you everything about how cynical the external involvement actually was. That’s not two nations with crazy leaders. That’s calculated exploitation dressed up as ideology.

On the ceasefire framing, Saddam was using chemical weapons on Iranian soldiers while simultaneously offering peace. You don’t get to gas people and then claim the moral high ground because they wouldn’t shake your hand.

So yes, fact checked. And it still doesn’t say what you think it says.

[Bavafa]

I don’t think you did anything wrong certain members like artaxexers have been spamming this forum for months and haven’t been getting any warnings whatsoever

there’s clear double standards here which will kill the forum the mods need to show some sort of self control and not let the events in Iran cause continued divide in the forum

I personally donate to keep the forum because the owners deserve it for their time sacrifice but what’s the point in wishing for unity in Iran when we can’t even simply have some form of unity on an internet forum - divide and conquer is what the elites want whether it be by religion , capitalist v socialist, dispora v natives - it’s all the political elites want is us to turn on each other which is what is happening now on this forum .

I Appreciate it man, but honestly I don’t take any of this personally, not even the drug comment. I called it out because it was a weak deflection, not because it stung. I’m here to engage, not fight.

But I love Iran and Iranians too much to stay quiet when I see fabricated history being passed around as fact. That’s the only thing that compels me to push back. It’s never personal.

[blue blood]

Actually, we agree on more than you think. I never said the US was the only player. Go back and read what I wrote. The point was that a specific narrative, the one Blue Blood was pushing, erases external actors entirely and lands on “Khomeini’s war.” That’s the revisionism I called out. Not that America alone did it.

You’ve actually strengthened the argument. France, Germany, Russia, China, Saudi money, all of it. That’s exactly the point. This was a proxy playground for half the world and framing it as two crazy leaders who just couldn’t get along lets every single one of those actors off the hook. Conveniently.

And Iran-Contra doesn’t help the “big bad Khomeini” narrative either. Reagan sending an autographed Quran and TOW missiles to the same regime he was publicly denouncing tells you everything about how cynical the external involvement actually was. That’s not two nations with crazy leaders. That’s calculated exploitation dressed up as ideology.

On the ceasefire framing, Saddam was using chemical weapons on Iranian soldiers while simultaneously offering peace. You don’t get to gas people and then claim the moral high ground because they wouldn’t shake your hand.

So yes, fact checked. And it still doesn’t say what you think it says.

There you go again!!! That is the 3rd time. I tried not to respond to you personally, but you keep poking. I tried and try to stay within the forum rules.
Remember, you started this.
I don't have an agenda and not pushing anything. I just want freedom!

My original post was in no way to support Saddam or that he was any better than Khomeini. Your accusatory tone disgusts me. You sound like the judges in Iran, short trials followed by death as punishment.

For 47 years, IR has done nothing but picking a fight with other countries and killing Iranians. Nothing Positive or productive has ever come out of these motherfuckers.
Those are the facts that you refuse to acknowledge in your posts. What you claim to be "facts" are different from my facts, and you fail to see it.
The bottom line is that the Islamic Republic wanted to export and expand the "Islamic revolution" to build an "Islamic empire", at any cost.

Regarding the games, you are free to go wave whichever flag you like. That is your choice. For me, it has always been Shiro Khorshid.

[Bavafa]

There you go again!!! That is the 3rd time. I tried not to respond to you personally, but you keep poking. I tried and try to stay within the forum rules.
Remember, you started this.
I don't have an agenda and not pushing anything. I just want freedom!

My original post was in no way to support Saddam or that he was any better than Khomeini. Your accusatory tone disgusts me. You sound like the judges in Iran, short trials followed by death as punishment.

For 47 years, IR has done nothing but picking a fight with other countries and killing Iranians. Nothing Positive or productive has ever come out of these motherfuckers.
Those are the facts that you refuse to acknowledge in your posts. What you claim to be "facts" are different from my facts, and you fail to see it.
The bottom line is that the Islamic Republic wanted to export and expand the "Islamic revolution" to build an "Islamic empire", at any cost.

Regarding the games, you are free to go wave whichever flag you like. That is your choice. For me, it has always been Shiro Khorshid.

There’s no such thing as ‘your facts vs my facts’.

There are facts, and then there’s what you wish were facts. That’s not a philosophical difference, that’s just one person being wrong.

And it’s telling that the moment the actual facts stopped cooperating, suddenly we’re in feelings territory. Disgust, tone complaints, ‘you started it’. That’s not a debate, that’s someone looking for the door.

You didn’t get open minded. You got cornered. The personal attack wasn’t a response, it was a retreat.

[FeLFeL]

Reading Bavafa's posts; I am inclined to say he was classmates with Trita Parsi. Fancy words. No substance. No spine. Supporting scum indirectly. The days of people falling for this sort of lobbying is long gone. Dare dokoono beband, jam kon boro. There's about to be a new Iran void of all these BS narratives and propaganda.

[koorosh]

[QUOTE=Bavafa;n3833449]

Actually, we agree on more than you think. I never said the US was the only player. Go back and read what I wrote. The point was that a specific narrative, the one Blue Blood was pushing, erases external actors entirely and lands on “Khomeini’s war.” That’s the revisionism I called out. Not that America alone did it.

You’ve actually strengthened the argument. France, Germany, Russia, China, Saudi money, all of it. That’s exactly the point. This was a proxy playground for half the world and framing it as two crazy leaders who just couldn’t get along lets every single one of those actors off the hook. Conveniently.

On the ceasefire framing, Saddam was using chemical weapons on Iranian soldiers while simultaneously offering peace. You don’t get to gas people and then claim the moral high ground because they wouldn’t shake your hand/QUOTE]

1. Not proxy war. Conventional war in which the main two actors were in direct conflict and decisions about when, where and who to attack were made by the main actors independently.

2. Khomeini kept the war going. 6 days into the war, Khomeini refused cease-fire offer by Saddam. May-Jul 1982. Khomeini refused peace offer.

Both were before the main chemical weapons attacks of 1983. Also refused a number of other opportunities while our dead mounted and mounted. This is no one else's fault. All other actors in Iran's at the time have pointed the finger to Khomeini. All the meanwhile, political executions and murders were very common...sometimes daily.

Framing it as two crazy leaders is exactly factually correct. Two terrible murderous men.

[Iran_19]

Okay, Yazdi is a decent reference, I’ll give you that much. But you’re conflating two things that aren’t the same, and it’s kind of fundamental.

Provocation is not causation. Khomeini’s rhetoric made Saddam nervous, sure, everyone knows that. But nervous doesn’t mean invaded. By that logic every country that ever got attacked had it coming for existing too loudly. That’s not history, that’s just victim blaming with extra steps.

The Yazdi story is actually shooting you in the foot. If Saddam was still routing diplomatic messages through the Iranian ambassador asking Khomeini to calm down, he hadn’t run out of options yet. You don’t get to exhaust diplomacy and then walk away clean from the war you started.


And the idea of Saddam as a reluctant man of peace who got pushed too far is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. He wanted the Shatt al-Arab for years. He saw a country in post-revolutionary chaos and saw his shot. Khomeini gave him something to point at.

That’s called a pretext, not a cause.

It seems to me you are defending someone like Khomeini, aren’t you? lol

No one defending Saddam, he was another animal. the thing is when you provocating people over and over at some point you pay the price for!
Khameini did the with Israeil for over 40 yrs!
haarto port..

[koorosh]

Sorry... duplicate post.

[FeLFeL]

We can discuss the Iran-Iraq war culprits and thousands of other problems that Iran and Iranians have experienced in the past 47 years and point fingers at Europe, The Arabs, Americans, Israel, etc. but the fact of the matter is that IRANIANS fked up and fell for the Islamist/Marxist trap, and the rest is history.

All of our problems, to this day, boil down to the fact that WE let THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC take power and control our nation since 1979. Point blank period.

[Bavafa]

It seems to me you are defending someone like Khomeini, aren’t you? lol

No one defending Saddam, he was another animal. the thing is when you provocating people over and over at some point you pay the price for!
Khameini did the with Israeil for over 40 yrs!
haarto port..

Ah yes, the classic "you disagree with me, therefore you're a Khomeini supporter" argument.

The discussion was about historical facts. Your response was to start assigning jerseys.

Thank you for proving my point better than I ever could.

The funny thing is I never defended Khomeini once. You just saw criticism of Saddam and immediately short-circuited into tribal politics.

And honestly, this mentality is exactly why the monarchy restoration crowd keeps running into a wall. The moment someone refuses to worship their preferred faction, they get accused of being an IR supporter.

People don't want to exchange one cult of personality for another. That ship sailed a long time ago.

[persiangodfather]

Ah yes, the classic "you disagree with me, therefore you're a Khomeini supporter" argument.

The discussion was about historical facts. Your response was to start assigning jerseys.

Thank you for proving my point better than I ever could.

The funny thing is I never defended Khomeini once. You just saw criticism of Saddam and immediately short-circuited into tribal politics.

And honestly, this mentality is exactly why the monarchy restoration crowd keeps running into a wall. The moment someone refuses to worship their preferred faction, they get accused of being an IR supporter.

People don't want to exchange one cult of personality for another. That ship sailed a long time ago.

Who did our people chant for back in jan and Feb?

[webmaster]

^ they did not chant against the war either. They want the regime to be desroyed. Unfortunately some people try to hide our peoples ply for freedom. If you guys haven't seen who and what people chanted for, I can remind you of that.

It is so easy, just search for Iran January 8th and 9th Masacre and you will be reminded who and what our people wanted and died for and it is not the regime a lot you want to normalize here. Easy peezy Lemon squeezy. I heard Javid Shah in more than 100 videos. if you want to play deaf, it won't work here. Whether you guys want it or not, Iranian people want REZA PAHLAVI and they do not care about your recipe for freedom. They have their own so stop your horses.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-m&q=Iran%20January%208th%20and%209th%20Masacre%2 0

The best action most of you can do is to step up and support the Iranian people inside Iran and hear what they want instead of trying to make it look like something else. It will never work.

[webmaster]

^ watch and stop your leftie propaganda. Iranians want to raise the lion and sun flag and are standing tall behind Reza Pahlavi.

Read this 100 times till you finally get it and stop being a hurdle to their freedom. This website only supports them and will stop any of you who is trying to stop their revolution. Bet all you have on this or lose it all together.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DZPvidZszIV/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==