QUEIROZ vs BRANCO Discussion!

[FutbolGods]

^ It's not a valid question. It's a rhetorical question.

Mahdavikia says Branko is great, Daei says CQ is great. A lunatic like Mayeli Kohan says CQ is Satan, a much more respected football mind like Taghavi says CQ is the best thing to happen to our football.

Personal opinions are subjective, especially when stated in simplistic terms like "[X] is great", and especially in cases like this where you're dealing with a lot of bias and personal agendas. Ever since Branko started his beef with CQ and red fans went crazy on social media, opportunistic former red players started coming out of the woodwork to bash Queiroz and support Branko to score cheap points and instagram likes from fans.

The only arguments that hold any water are the types Abedzadeh and Afat have made here, where the record of each coach is analyzed and contrasted with the other. And when you do that, both in terms of their overall career and what they've done with our football, the suggestion that Branko is better than or even as good as CQ is comical.

[tooleh khers]

^ It's not a valid question. It's a rhetorical question.

Mahdavikia says Branko is great, Daei says CQ is great. A lunatic like Mayeli Kohan says CQ is Satan, a much more respected football mind like Taghavi says CQ is the best thing to happen to our football.

Personal opinions are subjective, especially when stated in simplistic terms like "[X] is great", and especially in cases like this where you're dealing with a lot of bias and personal agendas. Ever since Branko started his beef with CQ and red fans went crazy on social media, opportunistic former red players started coming out of the woodwork to bash Queiroz and support Branko to score cheap points and instagram likes from fans.

The only arguments that hold any water are the types Abedzadeh and Afat have made here, where the record of each coach is analyzed and contrasted with the other. And when you do that, both in terms of their overall career and what they've done with our football, the suggestion that Branko is better than or even as good as CQ is comical.

You mean the ones that were proven incorrect and completely ignore records and stats but focus in on which player scored in the 82nd minute? Well, good to know where you stand on this. Thanks.

[FutbolGods]

You mean the ones that were proven incorrect and completely ignore records and stats but focus in on which player scored in the 82nd minute? Well, good to know where you stand on this. Thanks.

The only way you can prefer Branko to Queiroz is by either ignoring records and stats or having no idea how to interpret them. If Branko was in the same league as CQ his career wouldn't have been spent in Asian clubs, Croatia's league and German second division.

You couldn't refute a single point made by Abedzade and Afat. You don't have an argument and you know it. Just plain bias.

[NFL]

^ It's not a valid question. It's a rhetorical question.

Mahdavikia says Branko is great, Daei says CQ is great. A lunatic like Mayeli Kohan says CQ is Satan, a much more respected football mind like Taghavi says CQ is the best thing to happen to our football.

Personal opinions are subjective, especially when stated in simplistic terms like "[X] is great", and especially in cases like this where you're dealing with a lot of bias and personal agendas. Ever since Branko started his beef with CQ and red fans went crazy on social media, opportunistic former red players started coming out of the woodwork to bash Queiroz and support Branko to score cheap points and instagram likes from fans. The only arguments that hold any water are the types Abedzadeh and Afat have made here, where the record of each coach is analyzed and contrasted with the other. And when you do that, both in terms of their overall career and what they've done with our football, suggesting Branko is as good or even better than CQ is comical.

Personal opinions are subjective, yes. but when Kia gives his opinion, It it is not the same as you or me giving an opinion.
Daie doesn't say CQ is great and Branko is shit, which you are implying. I am sure Daie will have praise for Branko as well. I don't know what Taghavi's opinion of Branko is, but him saying CQ is the best thing to happen to us , doesn't imply that Branko is shit, unless you want to imply that here as well.


You put down opposing views as "subjective" but go on with your own subjective opinion and accusing others of having an agenda or personal bias (which you are clearly pointing at those supporting Branko). the only bias I see here is from branko haters. Branko supporters aren't putting down CQ (not on this site at least). but CQ supporters seem to have an agenda (like their coach) to put down Branko and Persepolis (we will discuss this after the tournament). but this is not even Tooleh Khers's argument. all Khers did was post a stat sheet. not his own words. just numbers from record books. that's all.

[tooleh khers]

The only way you can prefer Branko to Queiroz is by either ignoring records and stats or having no idea how to interpret them. If Branko was in the same league as CQ his career wouldn't have been spent in Asian clubs, Croatia's league and German second division.

You couldn't refute a single point made by Abedzade and Afat. You don't have an argument and you know it. Just plain bias.

Are these the records you are talking about? We are discussing records with Iran national team not Man u assistant record. no one argues internationally CQ is more known, In fact no one argues he has a better resume but dont come here and tell us his record with TM is better than Branko's. It clearly is not!

[FutbolGods]

Personal opinions are subjective, yes. but when Kia gives his opinion, It it is not the same as you or me giving an opinion.

Sure, as long as you keep that in mind when others of similar stature offer the opposite opinion. You can't have it both ways.

When Karimi said Branko is a coward and a loser at the end of WC 2006, I guess you agreed with him?? Or does his opinion only count when he starts a beef with CQ and decides he likes Branko all the sudden?...

When every single player on the national team backs CQ, are their opinions the same as yours and mine? or does that only apply when it suits your bias? When Dejagah calls CQ the greatest coach he's ever played for, is his opinion the same as yours and mine?...

We've had an entire generation of national team players back CQ for years now, with many of them calling him the best they've ever worked with. That means a hell of a lot more than the statements of a few former red players coming out of the woodwork to score brownie points with hysterical red fans.

Daie doesn't say CQ is great and Branko is shit, which you are implying.

No, that's what *you're* implying. I simply pointed out that Kia is not the only one to offer an opinion on the subject, and more than a few major figures have said similar things about CQ.

Branko supporters aren't putting down CQ (not on this site at least).

I'm new here so I don't know what they've been doing on this specific site, but I do know that Branko's fans (i.e. Perspolis fans) have been attacking CQ and team melli for about 3 years now on social media and on comments sections of every sports site. Also, the beef between them did not start by CQ. So I think those who care more about the national team than Perspolis have every right to resent Branko for exploiting red fans and creating unnecessary side issues for the national team.

Without bias and petty club loyalties I don't even know how anyone who has followed our football in the last 20 years can possibly compare Branko to CQ as if it's a toss up that comes down to personal preference! It's not even close to a 50/50 situation.

[NFL]

Sure, as long as you keep that in mind when others of similar stature offer the opposite opinion. You can't have it both ways.

When Karimi said Branko is a coward and a loser at the end of WC 2006, I guess you agreed with him?? Or does his opinion only count when he starts a beef with CQ and decides he likes Branko all the sudden?...

I actually agreed with him at the time. remember, I can have a subjective opinion. and have every right to change that opinion at a later time. there is nothing wrong with that. Just because Karimi said that in 2006 then he has to think the same way about Branko until 3006?

When every single player on the national team backs CQ, are their opinions the same as yours and mine? or does that only apply when it suits your bias? When Dejagah calls CQ the greatest coach he's ever played for, is his opinion the same as yours and mine?...

We've had an entire generation of national team players back CQ for years now, with many of them calling him the best they've ever worked with. That means a hell of a lot more than the statements of a few former red players coming out of the woodwork to score brownie points with hysterical red fans.

No, that's what *you're* implying. I simply pointed out that Kia is not the only one to offer an opinion on the subject, and more than a few major figures have said similar things about CQ.

I'm new here so I don't know what they've been doing on this specific site, but I do know that Branko's fans (i.e. Perspolis fans) have been attacking CQ and team melli for about 3 years now on social media and on comments sections of every sports site. Also, the beef between them did not start by CQ. So I think those who care more about the national team than Perspolis have every right to resent Branko for exploiting red fans and creating unnecessary side issues for the national team.

Without bias and petty club loyalties I don't even know how anyone who has followed our football in the last 20 years can possibly compare Branko to CQ as if it's a toss up that comes down to personal preference! It's not even close to a 50/50 situation.

I am not sure why you are asking me these questions. I don't have a beef with CQ, as a coach. I think he is a great football coach. probably one of the best we have ever had, if not the best. I just think he is dickhead of a person! there are many Portuguese coaches who agree with me. does that give my words more weight??

[K. Nader]

Are these the records you are talking about? We are discussing records with Iran national team not Man u assistant record. no one argues internationally CQ is more known, In fact no one argues he has a better resume but dont come here and tell us his record with TM is better than Branko's. It clearly is not!

You don't seem to get it so here are two quick things:

1. Branko was the manager longer than the stated 42 matches. He was the manager for 10 games from February 2002 - February 2003, during which he won 10 games. Based on this, his win percentage is 63.5%, not 69.1%. Now if you want to argue that this is still higher than CQ's 59.5%, go ahead. But then I challenge you to go and get another stat which is the line-up of Branko's 52 games in charge and CQ's first 52 games in charge. I am certain that you'll find the rotation of players and introduction of new players under CQ will out-trump Branko.

2. You mention the average FIFA ranking of our opponents. I did a weighted average of our FIFA ranking under Branko and under CQ. I also took the FIFA ranking of each of our opponents at the time which we played them in order to calculate the average ranking of our opponents. Like I mentioned before (and what was dismissed) is that the FIFA ranking formula was change after the 2006 World Cup. The result is that difference between our average FIFA ranking and that of our opponents is practically equivalent across both Branko and CQ (~40 ranks). So this notion that Branko played tougher teams is nonsense. Also, what do I mean by weighted average? Say we played twice in July when we were ranked 15 and once in August when we were ranked 30. The weighted average would be 20.

[FutbolGods]

Are these the records you are talking about? We are discussing records with Iran national team not Man u assistant record. no one argues internationally CQ is more known, In fact no one argues he has a better resume but dont come here and tell us his record with TM is better than Branko's. It clearly is not!

I said in my earlier post that the only way one can compare Branko to CQ is by either ignoring stats or not knowing how to interpret them. We'll have to put you down in the second category then

For one thing, the rankings have drastically changed since the Branko era. Back then a team like USA was consistently in the top 10 when everyone knew they weren't even close. The "West Asian Cup" was a bs joke of a tournament that proves nothing one way or the other. The Asian Games in 2002 was won with a squad that featured overage players like Golmohammadi in his 30s going up against Japan's U-21 in the final!

All around, it's just painfully simplistic to reduce the comparison to basic numbers and ignore the culture CQ introduced to our football which is historically unprecedented and is practically a revolution. The team spirit that used to be our Achille's Heel has been our ace with him in charge. The team he built is the only one we've ever had that plays as a unit independent of any one player, instead of a team of individuals counting on a couple of superstars in every match. In Branko's era those stars were Karimi and Kia. The team he took to WC 2006 was the most divided and clique-driven team I've seen in all the years I've followed the national team. Some of the main players (Daei and Karimi) didn't even talk to each other! The difference between his and CQ's teams are night and day.

CQ may have won "10% fewer games" so far, but he qualified to the world cup while missing Dejagh and his starting keeper in three do or die games. Branko never lost two key players for that length of time, and he still lost to Jordan in Tehran (!) and needed a last second goal from a player that was forced on him by the Federation (Hashemian) just to make it to the WCQ second round.

To reduce all this nuance and context to some nonsense about "Branko winning 69% of 42 games" versus "CQ only winning 59% of 93 games" is both desperate and childish.

[Ostad_Goosfand]

Are these the records you are talking about? We are discussing records with Iran national team not Man u assistant record. no one argues internationally CQ is more known, In fact no one argues he has a better resume but dont come here and tell us his record with TM is better than Branko's. It clearly is not!

There’s no context to those win % stats.

[DR Strangemoosh]

By the way, this famous quote by Mark Twain isn't meant to say "disregard statistics". It's meant to highlight the persuasive power of indiscriminate statistics, without context, to bolster weak arguments.

In any case, Branko's win aren't even 69%! I'm interested to see why whoever made that stat removed Branko's results from February 2002-February 2003, and whether this is being perpetuated in social media. Branko played 52 games, he won 33, drew 10 and lost 9. Is there anyone who is good on wikipedia and can amend his stats in the table because tooleh khers seems keen on repeating this false statistic? He should be in the same ball-park as Mayeli Kohan, Ali Daei, Jalal Talebi and CQ in terms of win percentage (such a useless stat without context anyway).

Regardless, it's not important. If anything it reinforces the message of the quote above.

[beevee]

You are incorrect as proven over and over again. Stats tell a different story. Branko and other coaches should not be included in any discussion about CQ worth or caliber but if one makes a mistake of doing so then Branko's stats with TM are better. All of the context, all of the leadership, all of the details is boiled down to give a stew and Branko's stew for the time being is thicker with better ingredients and more ingredients. CQ wins the Asian cup or reaches the final then we can have a proper argument on who has better stats. I will not even argue with you and other CQ fans. He makes the final I will concede. He does not it will a different story. If he doesn't reach the semis, off with his head and his die hard fans. LOL

Dear friend, it is so helpful to fully read and understand what a person is saying or has said before thinking of an answer or putting labels such as "die hard fans". The only die hard fan I see here is you who without understanding the subject looks for an answer!! I said this is a useless discussion if your only argument is based on stats, reason being because of geography, timing, talent pool, economy, population, history and and and. For a simple example Iran won the the Asian cup 3 times in a row statistically that is the best team Iran had, but in truth that team would lose 10 to zero to todays Yemen. Statistics are valid under equal or very close conditions, in football Number one decider of results is the talent level of the players, so it would be foolish to quote a certain stats that suits your die hard love for Bronco. On the other hand I'd take CQ over Bronco anyday of the week, so will Colombia, Manchester United, Real Madrid or the Portuguese national team. Is the same true for Bronco? Now this is statistics on equal basis.

[paas]

Branko fans are almost all red fans who never gave a damn about him until he started coaching their favorite club. Arguing with them is like arguing with a guy who says Honda Civics are better than Ferraris, only because his dad used to drive a Honda Civic!

You are implying that Branko is a Honda Civic and CQ is a Ferrari. So how is it that the Honda civic is putting up better numbers than the Ferrari? We’re supposed to just dismiss it based on one sided biased “context”.

The only way you can prefer Branko to Queiroz is by either ignoring records and stats or having no idea how to interpret them. If Branko was in the same league as CQ his career wouldn't have been spent in Asian clubs, Croatia's league and German second division.

You couldn't refute a single point made by Abedzade and Afat. You don't have an argument and you know it. Just plain bias.

Really? Like saying “Branko inherited a team that had many of the Stars of 1998 World Cup” or that “CQ inherited a team with a star-studded cast of Mohammad and Pejman Nouri, Gholamreza Rezaei” .
Completely false statements intended to make Branko look bad and CQ look good. Ie “putting thing in context”

All these things you guys call “context” are basically just a form of spinning reality to fit a certain narrative.
I showed how this biased “context” can be used both ways (Like highlighting referee mistakes in certain matches, or highlighting that Korea hit the crossbar 4 times in azadi, or Rahman Ahmadi turned into Buffon in the last match etc.)
In fact you can question lots of championships and achievements with “context”. Just depends how you use it.

[Abedzadeh]

No, all you do is try to put a whole question mark on the final result by stating that Hashemian scored 2 goals. Hardly accurate but to each his own. The guy you have in your signature says that Branko is the best foreign coach that has come to Iran. Would you like to add a "goh" or something to his name? Or question his football knowledge? Or maybe even better question his TM allegiance? You should write a ten page letter to Mahdavikia explaining how we barely qualified from the first round had it not been for a 82nd minute goal by Hashemian. Sorry I do not mean any disrespect as you are a respectful member but your logic and comments are very biased towards Branko and for CQ. We have a good saying in Persian: pas charbish koo? If CQ is so great then why he is just doing darja with our football? Where is a final advancement or a group advancement in the world cup? he has not even reached a semis in an Asian cup something we have done 50% of the time we appeared.

False, and once again, no substantive reply to the content of my post. You simply don't like the fact that I provided an accurate discussion of the context, and circumstances surrounding that particular match, as well as the preliminary qualification round for the '06 WCQs. I responded to a specific assertion (that we qualified for the 2006 WC stress-free), which is not true, and I explained why, and my explanation was factually accurate.

However, since you are clearly biased in favor of the current headcoach of PP, you take issue with that, and prefer that I omit any discussion of the surrounding circumstances and context, which can never be overlooked, because they deflate your argument.

You have even said the following in previous posts:

in the end all that remains is stats no one remembers any context.

^^ I am an engineer your words mean nothing. Only numbers matter.

Again, totally false. As many others have already explained to you, numbers are certainly important, but they are not the be-all, end-all as you incorrectly argue, as they do not tell the full story. If that were truly the case, then you should also be of the opinion that Miroslav Blazevic is not a successful coach because he failed to qualify TM to the WC, unlike the current headcoach of PP, without taking into account the other controlling factors that were involved (such as team quotas, etc.), which I already discussed and don't need to mention again.

Likewise, the table that you have posted is flawed and inaccurate, as many others have mentioned, as it contains glaring omissions, and contextual deficiencies, and to top it off, it has a "irpersepolis" watermark in the background which only underscores your bias, the bias of the table's creator, and the "reliability" of the table. If you are going to present an inaccurate and skewed table or chart for the purpose of glorifying branko, and undermining CQ, at least try to maintain a facade of objectivity.

As for my signature ..... yes, so what? I like Ali Karimi, and I'm sure you do too ..... but does that mean you necessarily agree with him on each and every topic, simply because he is Ali Karimi? A rather nonsensical argument. If you take a closer look at his picture, you will notice that the picture is from the '06 WC match against Portugal, and I specifically used that picture because I wanted to show my support for him; after getting injured some months before the World Cup, he had a lot of pressure on him, and after the tournament, I felt he was unfairly attacked by many so I wanted to show my support for his efforts, despite the injury.

If anything, you undermine your own (already) very weak arguments by referencing my signature; you allege that I am "biased" in favor of CQ, but point out that I also display a former player in my signature who regularly speaks out against CQ, and in favor of the PP head-coach . If anything, if I were truly "biased" in favor of CQ, wouldn't you think that I would not continue to display that particular player in my signature, or at the very least change it? The only bias here is the one that you displayed, and continue to display, among the other PP fans, over the last 20+ pages of this thread.

And as for Ali Karimi, and his comments on the CQ vs. PP head coach issue, have a look at this

From the 2012 WCQs, you will clearly see karimi not only praise CQ's admirable qualities and attributes, but actually express how if coaches of CQ's stature were coaching the national team when he was a young up and comer, the national team would have achieved better progress, and that the younger players should appreciate their opportunity to have such a coach. Gee, I wonder which particular coach he could possibly be taking a dig at. Sure, you can say that everyone can change their mind, which he clearly has ..... but apparently his mind changed when PP started to win IPL titles.

[beevee]

"^^ I am an engineer your words mean nothing. Only numbers matter."
I don't know what you engineer, I have 4 engineers that work for me and I would fire them everyone of them if they made this same statement. Numbers are a product of calculations and parameters if your parameters and calculations are wrong then your numbers are false and worthless.