QUEIROZ vs BRANCO Discussion!

[PersianLion80]

2006 was not a stress free qualifier, in fact we barely made it to the final round were it not for the heroics of some players....

[RaginG Inferno]

Mods, can we lock this thread until the Asian Cup is over? This is not a constructive discussion at this point.

[Abedzadeh]

The whole problem with some of you here is that all you do is undermine anything that Branko has done and glorify everything that involves CQ. For example you say the 2010 wc campaign was horrendous (which I actually agree with you) but lets be honest, the only difference between 2010 and 2014 was that we kept the 1-0 lead away to Korea in 2014 but lost it in 2010 at the 82nd minute.

Plus in 2014 we were also very fortunate to have 3 big referee mistakes go our way (Uzbekistan away goal, Qatar away pk, Korea away red card). ie it wasn’t this clean no stress campaign like in 2006 and 2018. It literally went down to the wire (again). But somehow that gets pushed under the rug.

No, not at all. It's just that some of you try to falsify the record with demonstrably false statements, and deliberate omissions, which prompts some of us to post responses which provide clarification, and full context. Let's just take your reply as an example.

You just said that we had a no stress campaign in 2006, which is false. Myself and many others in this thread have already explained that our qualification to the 2006 WC was by no means stress free, particularly in the preliminary qualification round where we faced the real prospect of early elimination, only to be saved in injury time by Vahid Hashemian, the #3 goal scorer of the Bundesliga/Bayern striker at the time, who refused to play for the national team until he saw the desperation of our qualification prospects.

Due to the defeat against Jordan at home (our first official defeat in Azadi since the 70s) we had to defeat Jordan away, and Qatar away, otherwise we would have been eliminated. As you may know, branko did not want Khodadad Azizi on the team, and refused to invite him, despite being arguably the best player in the IPL and playing a key role in Pas's '03-'04 championship season. Both Dadkan ,and Mehrlizadeh (I don't know the spelling, but the then sports minister) ultimately forced branko to invite Azizi for these two matches. As we all know, Vahid was sublime in Qatar, and Azizi played a key role in initiating the sequence of play which lead to the third/game winning goal. As I said earlier, we needed a prime Vahid Hashemian, a prime Mahdavikia (who at that point was arguably the best right winger in the Bundesliga), a young Ali Karimi (who was the then Asian player of the year), R. Rezaei and Khodadad just to beat Qatar in injury time to advance out of the preliminary round of a WCQ.

As for the final round of the 2006 WCQs, we did qualify in rather comfortable fashion..... but you shouldn't omit the fact that during the 2006 WCQ cycle, the final round of the qualifiers consisted of 2 groups of 4 teams, and that the top two teams of each group would advance, meaning that 50% of the Asian teams in the final round of the qualifiers would qualify directly to the WC. On top of that, we had legionaries, at their peak in the Bundesliga, and Serie A at that time .... nonetheless, we were still the only team in our qualification group that failed to defeat Bahrain in Bahrain .

In other words, I am providing context when myself and others post these critical details ..... which is far different from "undermining". Of course you may not like to be reminded of the context, because it demonstrates that our qualification to the 2006 WC had more to do with the relative ease of the qualification process, rather than the coaching acumen of branko. It would be akin to asserting that branko is a better coach than Miroslav Blazevic because branko qualified to the WC with TM, but Blazevic did not, but failing to mention that in the '02 WCQ cycle, there were two groups of 5 teams, and only the group winner would advance. Context matters, and should not be ignored, or swept under the rug.

Also, I'm not "glorifying" anything achieved under CQ as much as I am pointing out simple facts that can be either confirmed or denied; I specifically said that we qualified as group leaders for the first time since the revolution for WC '14, which is demonstrably true. under branko, we qualified in second place, out of a group of four, behind Japan, but only ahead of North Korea and Bahrain, . In the '14 WCQ cycle, there were two groups of 5, not 4 like in 2006, and Iran finished ahead of all of the teams in her group. This isn't "glorification", but merely pointing out facts. I never claimed or asserted that the '14 WCQ campaign, despite the final table, was smooth sailing, because it wasn't. In the first match against Uzbekistan, they were clearly superior to us, and the referee made an error, as they scored a goal which the ref did not register, even though we won the match. But you also shouldn't exclude the fact that Uzbekistan got their payback against us in Tehran when the referee absurdly disallowed a perfectly legit goal by Mamad Nouri, in a match which we played without our coach on the bench (as CQ was suspended). I also disagree with you about the officiating in the Qatar, and Korea matches.

You also said

the only difference between 2010 and 2014 was that we kept the 1-0 lead away to Korea in 2014 but lost it in 2010 at the 82nd minute.

It doesn't really matter what minute they lost it, because the 82nd minute of a match is just as much of a part of the match as the 1st minute, or the 45 minute, so I don't really know or understand what you are trying to say here. Also, if the match against Korea ended in a 1-1 draw (14 WCQs), Iran would have gone on to the intra-continental play-offs, meaning Iran would still have a shot at WC qualification. However, if Iran maintained the 1-0 against Korea in 2010, Iran would not necessarily have qualified for the WC because the KSA vs. NK match was still be played (remember, the two matches were not simultaneous), which means that KSA and NK would have fought one another with more intensity. Given that both teams already knew that our match already ended in a draw, both KSA and NK were content to play out a draw, as a draw would see NK directly through to the WC, and KSA would go on to the play-offs, and allowing them to still maintain a prospect of WC qualification.

In other words, it is actually yourself that is trying to diminish, and de-legitimize Iran's first competitive defeat of SK in Korea since the revolution, despite missing the services of its two best players through injury.

[NFL]

Mods, can we lock this thread until the Asian Cup is over? This is not a constructive discussion at this point.

I don't know how this is going to be any more constructive after the Asian Cup. if anything, it gets worse and eventually closed down, or it just dies away!
these discussions are never meant to be constructive. we are just fans sharing our opinions about football related events, fact, fictions, stories!

also, the two foreigners in the subject line seem to be talking about each other these days!! why not us?

[paas]

No, not at all. It's just that some of you try to falsify the record with demonstrably false statements, and deliberate omissions, which prompts some of us to post responses which provide clarification, and full context. Let's just take your reply as an example.

You just said that we had a no stress campaign in 2006, which is false. Myself and many others in this thread have already explained that our qualification to the 2006 WC was by no means stress free, particularly in the preliminary qualification round where we faced the real prospect of early elimination, only to be saved in injury time by Vahid Hashemian

In the first round of qualification, we won 5 matches and lost 1 (against Jordan heavily against the run of play).

Now you gave us a whole story about how we scored late to win against Qatar. Well here is a quote from you in this post:

It doesn't really matter what minute they lost it, because the 82nd minute of a match is just as much of a part of the match as the 1st minute, or the 45 minute, so I don't really know or understand what you are trying to say here.

We won the match. A little closer for our own comfort but it doesn’t matter. We won the match. And it wasn’t lucky. We deserved to win.

As for the final round of the 2006 WCQs, we did qualify in rather comfortable fashion..... but you shouldn't omit the fact that during the 2006 WCQ cycle, the final round of the qualifiers consisted of 2 groups of 4 teams, and that the top two teams of each group would advance, meaning that 50% of the Asian teams in the final round of the qualifiers would qualify directly to the WC.

It would be akin to asserting that branko is a better coach than Miroslav Blazevic because branko qualified to the WC with TM, but Blazevic did not, but failing to mention that in the '02 WCQ cycle, there were two groups of 5 teams, and only the group winner would advance. Context matters, and should not be ignored, or swept under the rug.

In the 2nd round, we won 4 matches and drew 1 which secured us a direct qualification to the world cup as group leaders with one match in hand.
In the final match against Japan, we didn’t even field our first team. Branko didn’t even invite the legionaries from Europe to give the league players international experience.

So Yes I would say it was comfortable. We were never in any scenario where we had to win our last three games or something like that.

Also, in 2002 everyone knows that AFC put Saudi and Iran in the same group to allow China to qualify in the other group because they were making a push for making football popular in that region. You can go and look at the seeding procedure and have a laugh.

In the first match against Uzbekistan, they were clearly superior to us, and the referee made an error, as they scored a goal which the ref did not register, even though we won the match. But you also shouldn't exclude the fact that Uzbekistan got their payback against us in Tehran when the referee absurdly dissallowed a perfectly legit goal by Mamad Nouri. I also disagree with you about the officiating in the Qatar, and Korea matches.

In regards to the refereeing mistakes,

-I think we all agree on the Uzbekistan away goal.
-Mohammad Nouri’s disallowed goal was 50/50 at best. Khalatbari was involved in the action of the play while being in an offside position. But you could argue that he got out of the way at the last moment. Anyway I’m not a referee expert.
-Qatar player was fouled on by Shojaei in the penalty box 100% in the 77th minute.
-The Korean player (#6) was fouled by Heydari in the first half when he was 1 on 1 with the goalkeeper 100%.

But that’s soccer. Referee mistakes are part of it.

Also, if the match against Korea ended in a 1-1 draw (14 WCQs), Iran would have gone on to the intra-continental play-offs, meaning Iran would still have a shot at WC qualification. However, if Iran maintained the 1-0 against Korea in 2010, Iran would not necessarily have qualified for the WC because the KSA vs. NK match was still be played (remember, the two matches were not simultaneous), which means that KSA and NK would have fought either with more intensity. Given that both teams already knew that our match already ended in a draw, both KSA and NK were content to play out a draw, as a draw would see NK directly through to the WC, and KSA would go on to the play-offs, and allowing them to still maintain a prospect of WC qualification.

If we maintained the 1-0 against Korea in 2010 we would’ve qualified direct. But yes you are right the Saudi – North Korea match was played later so we might have had to play New Zealand in the playoffs.

In 2014 if we had gone to the inter-continental playoffs we would’ve had to play Uruguay. Never say never, but that wasn’t gonna be easy.

In other words, it is actually yourself that is trying to diminish, and de-legitimize Iran's first competitive defeat of SK in Korea since the revolution, despite missing the services of its two best players through injury.

And no, I’m not diminishing our qualification to the 2014 world cup. I’m pointing out how some of you glorify things which involved CQ and put down anything that involved Branko. Which is clearly biased.

And Pooladi wasn’t our 2nd best player in 2014. He wasn’t even supposed to start in the wc if you rememner, he got in because Beikzadeh got injured.

[Abedzadeh]

In the first round of qualification, we won 5 matches and lost 1 (against Jordan heavily against the run of play).

Yes, and two out of those five wins were directly attributable to the return of Vahid Hashemian, and the forced return of Khodadad Azizi (against the wish of the coach). That loss to Jordan, as I explained, required that we defeat Jordan and Qatar (both away), which is a difficult feat. You make it sound as if that loss was inconsequential, when it had the great potential to knock us out of the preliminary round of the WCQs. We had no problems defeating Laos in either match, of course, or Qatar in Azadi, but we lost to Jordan at home, and we had to defeat Jordan and Qatar away. Vahid only decided to end his self-exile from TM, and return to the national team prior to the away match against Jordan, and Azizi was forced upon branko prior to that same match. Thankfully we got the victories that we needed, but this was by no means stress free, it was quite the opposite.

Now you gave us a whole story about how we scored late to win against Qatar. Well here is a quote from you in this post:

It doesn't really matter what minute they lost it, because the 82nd minute of a match is just as much of a part of the match as the 1st minute, or the 45 minute, so I don't really know or understand what you are trying to say here.

Yes, that's right, the point I am trying to make is that we almost didn't get the victory, and we just barely squeaked by, thanks to the simultaneous presence on the field of some of the best players in Iranian history, some of which included the #3 goal scorer of the Bundesliga, and a player who the coach openly stated that he did not want, among the others I mentioned.

We won the match. A little closer for our own comfort but it doesn’t matter.

No, it does matter, because you specifically said that we qualified stress-free, which is not true. If we have to wait till injury time to get a victory with the type of players that we had on the field, i.e. that type of firepower, in only the preliminary round of WCQ, that is not stress free, it's actually stress inducing. If you remember, there was a point in the match, late, where we were losing 2-1 because of a Yahya own-goal, but thankfully Borhani tied it 2-2. Soon enough, the Qatari players started to "grass-roll". It almost appeared as if we were going to be eliminated. I think around the 86th minute, Azizi was then substituted into the match, and the rest is history ..... but this clearly wasn't stress free as you described.

In the 2nd round, we won 4 matches and drew 1 which secured us a direct qualification to the world cup as group leaders with one match in hand. In the final match against Japan, we didn’t even field our first team. Branko didn’t even invite the legionaries from Europe to give the league players international experience. So Yes I would say it was comfortable. We were never in any scenario where we had to win our last three games or something like that.

Upon the conclusion of the qualifiers, we did not qualify as group leaders, Japan qualified as group leaders, we finished second in a group of four. As I explained, the reason for the comfort in the final round of the WCQs had more to do with the generous allocation of WC spots (half of the teams in each Asian qualification group advancing directly to the WC), coupled with caliber of players at the disposal of the then head coach. Did you really expect us not to qualify for the WC in 2006 when half the competing teams in each group enjoyed direct WC qualification, and given the type of players we had at that time? if branko had to qualify for the WC with the type of players that CQ had at his disposal in 2011-2013, as well having to deal with an additional team in the group, let alone as group leader while missing the services of his two best players and winning a match in a country where the national team hadn't previously won a competitive match in 30+ years, yeah I would find that to be a far more impressive achievement. Would you be so confident in his ability to qualify to the WC as group leader when he couldn't even do that when he only had to deal with one less opponent, and a far stronger roster of players?

Fyi, in 2002 everyone knows that AFC put Saudi and Iran in the same group to allow China to qualify in the other group because they were making a push for making football popular in that region. You can go and look at the seeding procedure and have a laugh.

I'm not really concerned with the seeding procedures or justification, the only point I am trying to make to you is that you need to consider other variables, in this case the number of allocated spots, as well as the number of teams able to qualify directly to the WC, when you assess the degree / level of ease with which a team qualified to the WC, and by extension, the performance of the coach.

In regards to the refereeing mistakes,
-I think we all agree on the Uzbekistan away goal.
-Mohammad Nouri’s disallowed goal was 50/50 at best. Khalatbari was involved in the action of the ball while being in an offside position. But you could argue that he got out of the way at the last moment. Anyway I’m not a referee expert.
-Qatar player was fouled on by Shojaei in the penalty box 100% in the 77th minute.
-The Korean player (#6) was fouled by Heydari in the first half when he was 1 on 1 with the goalkeeper 100%.
But that’s soccer. Referee mistakes are part of it.
If we had gone to the inter-continental playoffs we would’ve had to play Uruguay. Never say never, but that wasn’t gonna be easy.

I won't address this too much, but the justification for the disallowed Nouri goal was alleged interference/obstruction by Khalatbari. There was actually an episode on Navad about this, and it's not true, because Khalatbari's back was to the GK, meaning that there was no intent on his part to obstruct the GK, so that was an officiating error that hurt us.
I would have to review the Shojaei moment again before commenting further, but from I do recall, I don't agree, as believe the Qatari player was embellishing ..... and as for the SK incident with Heydari, I remember exactly, that happened near/before half-time, and it was not a foul, as Khosrow was going for the ball, and he did not clip, even inadvertently, the legs of the Korean #6.

About facing Uruguay .... yeah, it would be difficult, but at least we would still have a shot of WC qualification, whereas in 2010, our destiny depended on the result of a KSA vs. NK match, with both teams already knowing the result of our match.

And no, I’m not diminishing our qualification to the 2014 world cup. I’m pointing out how some of you glorify things which involved CQ and put down anything that involved Branko. Which is clearly biased.

No, I already explained to you in my previous post that some here are providing the underlying context, which some of some of you deliberately omit and refuse to acknowledge, which is different than undermining. As I said, you cannot truly evaluate our qualification for the 2006 WC without mentioning how 50% of the Asian teams in the final round of the qualifiers were able to enjoy direct WC qualification, and that we had legionaries, at their peak, in first-rate European leagues, not to mention that we almost failed to advance out of the preliminary qualification round. The reason you don't want to address these factors, or try to minimize their impact, is because they deflate your argument that our qualification to the '06 WC was stress free.

And Pooladi wasn’t our 2nd best player in 2014. He wasn’t even supposed to start in the wc if you rememner, he got in because Beikzadeh got injured.

I was referring to the final three WCQ matches in 2013; both Ashkan and Mehrdad were injured. We all know the value of Ashkan, and Mehrdad was our key defender at that time, but he was injured. Beikzadeh actually played because of his absence.

If we maintained the 1-0 against Korea in 2010 we would’ve qualified direct. But yes you are right the Saudi – North Korea match was played later so we might have had to play New Zealand in the playoffs.

As I explained, if we won that match 1-0, our ability to qualify directly would ultimately depend on the result of the KSA vs. NK match, but with a draw, both teams were content to play out a draw themselves, as NK would go on to the WC, and KSA would have a reasonable chance in the play-off.

[paas]

^Look I'm not gonna go 12 rounds with you on this.

In 2006 we went 5-0-1 In the first stage. And overall once we hit 9-1-1 we had qualified 1st in the group with a game at hand.
Perhaps the nature of the first round where 4 teams play for 1 spot made things tense at times and all the matches were must wins (especially when 2 of them are working together).

Define it as you wish. "Lucky" "stressfull" etc.
The record speak for it self.

[Abedzadeh]

^ I have nothing else to add, other than that I won't define something as I "wish", but rather with accuracy and context, because context and underlying background are important, and cannot be overlooked.

[beevee]

What a nonsensical discussion. What is this Bronco did this, CQ did that, stats say this or that? Sounds like bunch of first graders arguing over whos dad is better. I mean really?
Look a head coach is like a general at war. His job is to motivate, discipline, deploy the troops to follow a set of predesignated fight plan. If his troops go out follow his plan are fully motivated and willing, then the general has done his job. CQ showed us and the entire football playing world he is an exceptional field general over and over again. You don't have to look far, watch TM right now. They're motivated, disciplined and fully follow the battle plan to the end. Whether we lose win or draw the General, Manager, executive or whatever you want to call him has done his job to the max.
Now if you have an issue with the battle plan then there is something to talk about if not so what in the world are we talking about? Bronco just does not have the credentials to compete on that level with CQ, having said that, that does not mean Bronco is not a worthy general or a good head coach, he is. Just not at that level. If you don't believe me ask the Colombians, Man U, Real Madrid, Portuguese and so on. We are very fortunate to have had the opportunity to have Mr. CQ for the last 8 years and big credit to Iran Footbsll Federation. Mr. Queiroz as an Iranian football fan and an Iranian Patriot I want to thank you for your hard work and dedication to have caused our National Team to be what it is today a team that is feared and respected world over.

[teammelli91]

Branko inherited a team that had many of the Stars of 1998 World Cup + Ali Karimi, Nekounam, etc.

CQ inherited a team that missed 2010 World Cup, with a star-studded cast of Mohammad and Pejman Nouri, Gholamreza Rezaei, etc.

If you gave Sir Alex himself that team, I think he’d have a handful of losses in there. If any of you are dense enough to believe that Branko could do the same, and build and find the players CQ has, you’re delusional. Don’t forget the backlash CQ got for suggesting bringing Dejagah, Gucci, and Davari to the team. Branko would have pissed his pants at the thought of losing Rahmati...

Comparing “Professor” to CQ is like comparing a ford to a Ferrari. The fact that you don’t see what Branko wasted and squandered, compared to what CQ built essentially from scratch is truly sad and shows the inherent bias.

Bravo 👏🏼

And what’s sad about all of this is there are a lot of people in Iran who don’t know or even care about Branko’s accomplishments with Team Melli and ONLY defend him because of his 2015-19 accomplishments with Persepolis. And a majority of them don’t even listen to reason. As in “let’s put an end to this nonsense and just support our national team”. And they respond, “Persepolis Team Mellie mane.” So childish and quite sad if you ask me.

[tooleh khers]

What a nonsensical discussion. What is this Bronco did this, CQ did that, stats say this or that? Sounds like bunch of first graders arguing over whos dad is better. I mean really?
Look a head coach is like a general at war. His job is to motivate, discipline, deploy the troops to follow a set of predesignated fight plan. If his troops go out follow his plan are fully motivated and willing, then the general has done his job. CQ showed us and the entire football playing world he is an exceptional field general over and over again. You don't have to look far, watch TM right now. They're motivated, disciplined and fully follow the battle plan to the end. Whether we lose win or draw the General, Manager, executive or whatever you want to call him has done his job to the max.
Now if you have an issue with the battle plan then there is something to talk about if not so what in the world are we talking about? Bronco just does not have the credentials to compete on that level with CQ, having said that, that does not mean Bronco is not a worthy general or a good head coach, he is. Just not at that level. If you don't believe me ask the Colombians, Man U, Real Madrid, Portuguese and so on. We are very fortunate to have had the opportunity to have Mr. CQ for the last 8 years and big credit to Iran Footbsll Federation. Mr. Queiroz as an Iranian football fan and an Iranian Patriot I want to thank you for your hard work and dedication to have caused our National Team to be what it is today a team that is feared and respected world over.

You are incorrect as proven over and over again. Stats tell a different story. Branko and other coaches should not be included in any discussion about CQ worth or caliber but if one makes a mistake of doing so then Branko's stats with TM are better. All of the context, all of the leadership, all of the details is boiled down to give a stew and Branko's stew for the time being is thicker with better ingredients and more ingredients. CQ wins the Asian cup or reaches the final then we can have a proper argument on who has better stats. I will not even argue with you and other CQ fans. He makes the final I will concede. He does not it will a different story. If he doesn't reach the semis, off with his head and his die hard fans. LOL

[tooleh khers]

^ I have nothing else to add, other than that I won't define something as I "wish", but rather with accuracy and context, because context and underlying background are important, and cannot be overlooked.

No, all you do is try to put a whole question mark on the final result by stating that Hashemian scored 2 goals. Hardly accurate but to each his own. The guy you have in your signature says that Branko is the best foreign coach that has come to Iran. Would you like to add a "goh" or something to his name? Or question his football knowledge? Or maybe even better question his TM allegiance? You should write a ten page letter to Mahdavikia explaining how we barely qualified from the first round had it not been for a 82nd minute goal by Hashemian. Sorry I do not mean any disrespect as you are a respectful member but your logic and comments are very biased towards Branko and for CQ. We have a good saying in Persian: pas charbish koo? If CQ is so great then why he is just doing darja with our football? Where is a final advancement or a group advancement in the world cup? he has not even reached a semis in an Asian cup something we have done 50% of the time we appeared.

[Navidi94]

Ya Ali...cant believe ths thread is still going on...admin please close it..

[FutbolGods]

The only place in the world where there is even a debate about the quality of Queiroz versus Branko is in Iran! Then again it's hard for the rest of the world to have an opinion on this comparison when they don't even know who "Branko Ivankovic" is supposed to be!

Branko fans are almost all red fans who never gave a damn about him until he started coaching their favorite club. Arguing with them is like arguing with a guy who says Honda Civics are better than Ferraris, only because his dad used to drive a Honda Civic!

You can't argue against petty bias and raw emotion. It's a waste of time.

[NFL]

The guy you have in your signature says that Branko is the best foreign coach that has come to Iran. Would you like to add a "goh" or something to his name? Or question his football knowledge? Or maybe even better question his TM allegiance?

Valid question!