QUEIROZ vs BRANCO Discussion!

[Iran_19]

Another anti-CQ article by v3 and Pejman Rahbar who is pro branko:

https://www.varzesh3.com/news/1589647/%D9%87%D8%B1-%D9%BE%DB%8C%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%B2%DB%8C-%D8%AA%DB%8C%D9%85-%D8%A8%D8%B2%D8%B1%DA%AF%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%86-%DA%86%D9%86%D8%AF-%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%84%DB%8C%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%AF-%D8%A2%D8%A8-%D9%85%DB%8C-%D8%AE%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%AF

[tooleh khers]

آیا کیروش بهترین مربی تاریخ فوتبال ایران است؟


کارلوس کی*روش در مقایسه با چهار سرمربی پیشین تیم* ملی آماری ارزشمندتر دارد اما رکوردهای* خیره*کننده*ای که به اسم او ثبت شده است، رقیب بزرگی را مقابل خود می*بیند.

http://footballitarin.com/link_page.php?id=434322

[Ghermez Agha]

Does anyone have a video of Branco talking about Iraq’s coach/team? I saw it somewhere but can’t remember and now I can’t find it

[Roxanaz80]

TM should remain a neutral force of nature uniting all of us as politicians, coaches, IFF heads come and go.

Wish our army was like that.

[DR Strangemoosh]

I never really thought that Iran was a country which had club-over-country supporters until going on instagram today after the game. Wasn't expecting so many iranians to be unhappy that of Iran's victory over Vietnam (although to be fair I believe the vast majority of Persepolis fans in real life would be happy for TM to win).

It's actually quite surreal. I guess with their stats, both real and fake, without any context or interpretation, up is down and left is right.

[FutbolGods]

You saying that those statements are correct says it all to me what's going on here.

"What's going on here" is that we're dealing with reality while you're dealing with... something else. Karimi and Kia were the pillars of Branko's team and responsible for the bulk of its wins, and both of them were already stars and key players in team melli before Branko took over. He had the fortune of getting them in the absolute prime of their careers. You have no argument against any of this. Nothing other than the most superficial comparison of stats devoid of context.

"What's going on here" is that a handful of red fans can't come to terms with the fact that CQ is in a whole other league compared to their mediocre Croat who couldn't get hired as ball boy in places CQ has been. You're just going to have to deal with this. And just because you can't, doesn't mean the rest of us have to indulge your delusions.

[paas]

Abedzadeh, K.Nader, Dr.Strangemoosh and I have all explained in detail why numbers without context are meaningless, and some even pointed out that the "numbers" the Branko apologists hide behind are actually fraudulent... and you STILL post this nonsense!

Unbelievable.

The numbers are not "fraudulent". I've personally checked them out myself. If you are referring to the matches in 2002, Branko was the U23 team coach (u23+3 overage) preparing the team for the Asian games (which we won). I'm sorry that the stats don't fit into your agenda.

Really? Like saying “Branko inherited a team that had many of the Stars of 1998 World Cup” or that “CQ inherited a team with a star-studded cast of Mohammad and Pejman Nouri, Gholamreza Rezaei” .
Completely false statements intended to make Branko look bad and CQ look good.

You saying that those statements are correct says it all to me what's going on here.

[FutbolGods]

You are implying that Branko is a Honda Civic and CQ is a Ferrari. So how is it that the Honda civic is putting up better numbers than the Ferrari?

Abedzadeh, K.Nader, Dr.Strangemoosh and I have all explained in detail why numbers without context are meaningless, and some even pointed out that the "numbers" the Branko apologists hide behind are actually fraudulent... and you STILL post this nonsense!

Unbelievable.

Really? Like saying “Branko inherited a team that had many of the Stars of 1998 World Cup” or that “CQ inherited a team with a star-studded cast of Mohammad and Pejman Nouri, Gholamreza Rezaei” .
Completely false statements intended to make Branko look bad and CQ look good.

Those are completely TRUE statements, and it's not our problem that FACTS make Branko look bad and CQ look good.

Take away Kia and Karimi from Branko's team in AC 2004 and WCQ rounds in 2004-2005, and I'll tell you what his "win percentage" would be. I can't stand Karimi, but I can't deny that in those years he carried the national team on his shoulders. If he had been the same injured/petulant child in 2004-2005 that he was in WC 2006, Branko's record in Iran would be VERY different. CQ has built a team entirely independent of stars. Only those of us who have followed Iranian football for decades instead of a few years can understand what a drastic change this is.

The problem here is that Branko apologists can't openly admit their motivations. They can't just come out and say they prefer their precious club to team melli, because they know how it would be received by the majority on a board like this. So instead they resort to logical gymnastics, cherry picked numbers that are either taken out of context or completely incorrect, and brag about empty "achievements" like winning the Asian games against Japan's U-21 team.

This is exactly like my example of someone who argues that Hondas are better than Ferraris, but he's too embarrassed to admit he only says it because his dad drove a Civic.

[beevee]

but you are saying that because the stats are against your argument

I have no argument, I'm saying any argument based solely on stats doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. I didn't even read his stats or try to find stats to counter his. Let me ask you this how many coaches do you know of that have had great numbers with one team and then go to another team and crash and burn? Why is that? didn't they have amazing stats? No the reason is that the circumstances has changed. So stats by themselves are meaning less. that's all. I don't want to continue this pointless conversation anymore. Thanks

[bozghaleh]

These guys touting B***** should go look at his the games, instead of numbers. For the rest of us who lived through those dark days ro who have some sense, I suggest we ignore/boycott this stupid post so it disappears from the front page.

[NFL]

Dear friend, it is so helpful to fully read and understand what a person is saying or has said before thinking of an answer or putting labels such as "die hard fans". The only die hard fan I see here is you who without understanding the subject looks for an answer!! I said this is a useless discussion if your only argument is based on stats, reason being because of geography, timing, talent pool, economy, population, history and and and.

but you are saying that because the stats are against your argument. otherwise you would be thanking tooleh for posting those stats instead of arguing with him that these stats are useless and aren't telling the whole story etc etc!!..

and that's the problem with everyone's argument who is whining about the stats Tooleh has posted, in that they would have all used the same stats as proof of their argument and pushed the thanks button under his post, if the same "useless numbers" were the other way around!

now before you jump to conclusion, I too would take CQ over Branko. (as if I have a choice). CQ is a top tier coach and branko is not any where near his stature. but that doesn't mean that I don't think highly of branko as coach. a great coach in fact who has done an excellent job with Persepolis and did the best he could with Iran.

[beevee]

"^^ I am an engineer your words mean nothing. Only numbers matter."
I don't know what you engineer, I have 4 engineers that work for me and I would fire them everyone of them if they made this same statement. Numbers are a product of calculations and parameters if your parameters and calculations are wrong then your numbers are false and worthless.

[Abedzadeh]

No, all you do is try to put a whole question mark on the final result by stating that Hashemian scored 2 goals. Hardly accurate but to each his own. The guy you have in your signature says that Branko is the best foreign coach that has come to Iran. Would you like to add a "goh" or something to his name? Or question his football knowledge? Or maybe even better question his TM allegiance? You should write a ten page letter to Mahdavikia explaining how we barely qualified from the first round had it not been for a 82nd minute goal by Hashemian. Sorry I do not mean any disrespect as you are a respectful member but your logic and comments are very biased towards Branko and for CQ. We have a good saying in Persian: pas charbish koo? If CQ is so great then why he is just doing darja with our football? Where is a final advancement or a group advancement in the world cup? he has not even reached a semis in an Asian cup something we have done 50% of the time we appeared.

False, and once again, no substantive reply to the content of my post. You simply don't like the fact that I provided an accurate discussion of the context, and circumstances surrounding that particular match, as well as the preliminary qualification round for the '06 WCQs. I responded to a specific assertion (that we qualified for the 2006 WC stress-free), which is not true, and I explained why, and my explanation was factually accurate.

However, since you are clearly biased in favor of the current headcoach of PP, you take issue with that, and prefer that I omit any discussion of the surrounding circumstances and context, which can never be overlooked, because they deflate your argument.

You have even said the following in previous posts:

in the end all that remains is stats no one remembers any context.

^^ I am an engineer your words mean nothing. Only numbers matter.

Again, totally false. As many others have already explained to you, numbers are certainly important, but they are not the be-all, end-all as you incorrectly argue, as they do not tell the full story. If that were truly the case, then you should also be of the opinion that Miroslav Blazevic is not a successful coach because he failed to qualify TM to the WC, unlike the current headcoach of PP, without taking into account the other controlling factors that were involved (such as team quotas, etc.), which I already discussed and don't need to mention again.

Likewise, the table that you have posted is flawed and inaccurate, as many others have mentioned, as it contains glaring omissions, and contextual deficiencies, and to top it off, it has a "irpersepolis" watermark in the background which only underscores your bias, the bias of the table's creator, and the "reliability" of the table. If you are going to present an inaccurate and skewed table or chart for the purpose of glorifying branko, and undermining CQ, at least try to maintain a facade of objectivity.

As for my signature ..... yes, so what? I like Ali Karimi, and I'm sure you do too ..... but does that mean you necessarily agree with him on each and every topic, simply because he is Ali Karimi? A rather nonsensical argument. If you take a closer look at his picture, you will notice that the picture is from the '06 WC match against Portugal, and I specifically used that picture because I wanted to show my support for him; after getting injured some months before the World Cup, he had a lot of pressure on him, and after the tournament, I felt he was unfairly attacked by many so I wanted to show my support for his efforts, despite the injury.

If anything, you undermine your own (already) very weak arguments by referencing my signature; you allege that I am "biased" in favor of CQ, but point out that I also display a former player in my signature who regularly speaks out against CQ, and in favor of the PP head-coach . If anything, if I were truly "biased" in favor of CQ, wouldn't you think that I would not continue to display that particular player in my signature, or at the very least change it? The only bias here is the one that you displayed, and continue to display, among the other PP fans, over the last 20+ pages of this thread.

And as for Ali Karimi, and his comments on the CQ vs. PP head coach issue, have a look at this

From the 2012 WCQs, you will clearly see karimi not only praise CQ's admirable qualities and attributes, but actually express how if coaches of CQ's stature were coaching the national team when he was a young up and comer, the national team would have achieved better progress, and that the younger players should appreciate their opportunity to have such a coach. Gee, I wonder which particular coach he could possibly be taking a dig at. Sure, you can say that everyone can change their mind, which he clearly has ..... but apparently his mind changed when PP started to win IPL titles.

[paas]

Branko fans are almost all red fans who never gave a damn about him until he started coaching their favorite club. Arguing with them is like arguing with a guy who says Honda Civics are better than Ferraris, only because his dad used to drive a Honda Civic!

You are implying that Branko is a Honda Civic and CQ is a Ferrari. So how is it that the Honda civic is putting up better numbers than the Ferrari? We’re supposed to just dismiss it based on one sided biased “context”.

The only way you can prefer Branko to Queiroz is by either ignoring records and stats or having no idea how to interpret them. If Branko was in the same league as CQ his career wouldn't have been spent in Asian clubs, Croatia's league and German second division.

You couldn't refute a single point made by Abedzade and Afat. You don't have an argument and you know it. Just plain bias.

Really? Like saying “Branko inherited a team that had many of the Stars of 1998 World Cup” or that “CQ inherited a team with a star-studded cast of Mohammad and Pejman Nouri, Gholamreza Rezaei” .
Completely false statements intended to make Branko look bad and CQ look good. Ie “putting thing in context”

All these things you guys call “context” are basically just a form of spinning reality to fit a certain narrative.
I showed how this biased “context” can be used both ways (Like highlighting referee mistakes in certain matches, or highlighting that Korea hit the crossbar 4 times in azadi, or Rahman Ahmadi turned into Buffon in the last match etc.)
In fact you can question lots of championships and achievements with “context”. Just depends how you use it.

[beevee]

You are incorrect as proven over and over again. Stats tell a different story. Branko and other coaches should not be included in any discussion about CQ worth or caliber but if one makes a mistake of doing so then Branko's stats with TM are better. All of the context, all of the leadership, all of the details is boiled down to give a stew and Branko's stew for the time being is thicker with better ingredients and more ingredients. CQ wins the Asian cup or reaches the final then we can have a proper argument on who has better stats. I will not even argue with you and other CQ fans. He makes the final I will concede. He does not it will a different story. If he doesn't reach the semis, off with his head and his die hard fans. LOL

Dear friend, it is so helpful to fully read and understand what a person is saying or has said before thinking of an answer or putting labels such as "die hard fans". The only die hard fan I see here is you who without understanding the subject looks for an answer!! I said this is a useless discussion if your only argument is based on stats, reason being because of geography, timing, talent pool, economy, population, history and and and. For a simple example Iran won the the Asian cup 3 times in a row statistically that is the best team Iran had, but in truth that team would lose 10 to zero to todays Yemen. Statistics are valid under equal or very close conditions, in football Number one decider of results is the talent level of the players, so it would be foolish to quote a certain stats that suits your die hard love for Bronco. On the other hand I'd take CQ over Bronco anyday of the week, so will Colombia, Manchester United, Real Madrid or the Portuguese national team. Is the same true for Bronco? Now this is statistics on equal basis.