Is Queiroz failing?

[Doctor DOOM]

You and Mansour, are assuming, there are some young players,currantly in our league..who would change everything for us...
why is it, that CQ can not see them ?....why is it I can not see them ?.....we see some decnt players.....but no one who could change the balance of TM for WCQ.......
The extend of issues existing with our TM that are far more drastic, that couple of youth,inexperinced U21 players..can solve.....

"change everything"? no single player born on earth (many believe messi is extraterrestrial) can change everything for a team. but as I said with MK TRUSTED in a bunch of very talented and promising players and got the rewards for that trust. they didnt "change everything". but by God they helped raise the level and quality of TM exponentially.

And yes, we DO have plenty of such talent that need to be trusted at TM. perhaps you havent followed our U-19 and U-22 teams. but just off the top of my head I can name a whole bunch of players at and lower than 23 years who deserve this trust. haghighi, ebrahimi, rahmani, jahanbakhsh, mosalman, sadeghiyan, karimi, lakk, ... etc etc etc.
I encourage you to visit pfdc archives (or footballitarin's) and watch our U-19 asian games as well as U-22 tourny in qatar. you'd be amazed how so much talent can be ignored so easily.

as for the issue of "experience", I have been posting several notes here, showing mere experience doesnt guarantee the best decisions or it doesnt automatically mean quality. here:

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?107058-What-do-we-do-if-we-lose-or-draw-against-Qatar/page11

you may have to go to different pages to see these notes

[zzgloo]

and to add t the above, lets step back and examine:

which group would you trust me in terms of quality performance, experience and exposure?
mahdavikia, yazdani, minavand, ... of 1996 or ebrahimi, moslaman, jahanbakhsh, sadeghiyan, ... of 2013?
remember nobody really knew the extent and potnetial of kia, yazadni, minavand, ... back in 1996 when MK took over the team, and in fact as their first game, lost 3-1 to uae in a friendly mere months before stepping into the 1996 asia cup.
anyone would take today's youth over the youth of that time. be it in terms of exposure, professionalism, qulity, ... etc etc.
but look how that bunch turned out when the coach actually TRUSTED them. they became superstars of Iran within no time at all. and gave TM many many years of noteworthy performances.

and this is what is being denied of ebrahimis and haghighis of today ... because some of us are either too scared or too narrow minded to let go of the slow, lethargic and satiated veterans. and for every opportunity that we lose to involve and intigrate our youth, we lose twice that amount for TM

we need to trust these guys more. we better understand we need to rejuvenate before we lose too much time and at the same time allow many years of productivity to waste away just because we dont have the guts to take that step

You and Mansour, are assuming, there are some young players,currantly in our league..who would change everything for us...
why is it, that CQ can not see them ?....why is it I can not see them ?.....we see some decnt players.....but no one who could change the balance of TM for WCQ.......
The extend of issues existing with our TM that are far more drastic, that couple of youth,inexperinced U21 players..can solve.....
...
puting all my beliefs in one sentense..
The situation in IRAN,particularly in our football , is far more complex, and far more ****ed up, that it could be handled by logical plannings.

[zzgloo]

Bahram jaan, I am not sure what part you are making such an impossible task; including youth and energy, or coaching players to reach their ceiling and beyond?

First, I must say I never said Carlos is in charge of "youth" development. No, he is not. But he should bring in youth into the team "gradually" that are "developed". That is different than developing, that is transiting.

Players like Rahmani, Mosalman, or Sadeghian, who are not at the peak of their career but have the potential to play for TM. Just like when Kia joined TM before going to Europe or Karimi did or others did. TM transited under Mayeli and we saw how the youth and energy brought the team up.

When those players joined TM, they were not fully developed but yet ready to bring in youth and energy into the team. The very thing that is missing from TM at the moment with slow and old legs, particularly in midfield.

A solid team is made of experience and youth. The same formula Branko followed and succeeded. Carlos should have done this when he had time but I am not sure if it is too late now or not.

As for his point "a" task that Peyman jaan very well explained above, I don't have anything else to add. If you don't think that is what distinguishes the "great coaches" from "good ones", that is perfectly your right and your opinion.

I simply stated my opinion that what makes great coaches are those who are able to bring the players up to their full potential and a bit above, with means in hand such as training, tactics, selections, formations, strategies, and else. That is why we pay such high salary to a man that holds exactly the same certificate as thousand others.

Mokhlesim.

Manour jaan.....
Have you been in Iran recently ?....have you worked or done something in IRAN recently ?....have you tried to get something official done in IRAN recently ?...
IRAN...is the land of " ****ed up-ness " ( if there is such word ).....
have you heard the joke about advantages of Iranian " Hell " over " American " Hell ?...in Iranian Hell, there is Fire one day, but not the fuel,there is fuel another day but not The fire, and so on and so forth.......
Nothing substancial can be achived in Iran....if one gets lucky and does something, he can never ever, repeat it !........

[Doctor DOOM]

and to add t the above, lets step back and examine:

which group would you trust me in terms of quality performance, experience and exposure?
mahdavikia, yazdani, minavand, ... of 1996 or ebrahimi, moslaman, jahanbakhsh, sadeghiyan, ... of 2013?
remember nobody really knew the extent and potnetial of kia, yazadni, minavand, ... back in 1996 when MK took over the team, and in fact as their first game, lost 3-1 to uae in a friendly mere months before stepping into the 1996 asia cup.
anyone would take today's youth over the youth of that time. be it in terms of exposure, professionalism, qulity, ... etc etc.
but look how that bunch turned out when the coach actually TRUSTED them. they became superstars of Iran within no time at all. and gave TM many many years of noteworthy performances.

and this is what is being denied of ebrahimis and haghighis of today ... because some of us are either too scared or too narrow minded to let go of the slow, lethargic and satiated veterans. and for every opportunity that we lose to involve and intigrate our youth, we lose twice that amount for TM

we need to trust these guys more. we better understand we need to rejuvenate before we lose too much time and at the same time allow many years of productivity to waste away just because we dont have the guts to take that step

[Mansoor]

Bahram jaan, I am not sure what part you are making such an impossible task; including youth and energy, or coaching players to reach their ceiling and beyond?

First, I must say I never said Carlos is in charge of "youth" development. No, he is not. But he should bring in youth into the team "gradually" that are "developed". That is different than developing, that is transiting.

Players like Rahmani, Mosalman, or Sadeghian, who are not at the peak of their career but have the potential to play for TM. Just like when Kia joined TM before going to Europe or Karimi did or others did. TM transited under Mayeli and we saw how the youth and energy brought the team up.

When those players joined TM, they were not fully developed but yet ready to bring in youth and energy into the team. The very thing that is missing from TM at the moment with slow and old legs, particularly in midfield.

A solid team is made of experience and youth. The same formula Branko followed and succeeded. Carlos should have done this when he had time but I am not sure if it is too late now or not.

As for his point "a" task that Peyman jaan very well explained above, I don't have anything else to add. If you don't think that is what distinguishes the "great coaches" from "good ones", that is perfectly your right and your opinion.

I simply stated my opinion that what makes great coaches are those who are able to bring the players up to their full potential and a bit above, with means in hand such as training, tactics, selections, formations, strategies, and else. That is why we pay such high salary to a man that holds exactly the same certificate as thousand others.

Mokhlesim.

[zzgloo]

Payman va Mansour e aziz...
..
if we accept the requirements you both need from a coach....we might as well never ( not till 50 years from now ) hire a western European football coach....
A so called ,Good western European coach, has never been " Good ", in what you both think he should know to do well in IRAN.....as western Europeans are used to work with " High work ethics ", self " Motivated ", " proffesional ", with highly organized managements.....
.....They are not made for tasks you expect them for !
..........do we ,in our football, admit, regulating " side isssues " ,in Iranian system..is more important than football knowledge for a coach ??

[Doctor DOOM]

Mansour e aziz..( Aidet mobarak )..I did look back again and paid attention to your "a" and " b " points....in which you suggested what he should have done is first get the most out of players, and develope new younger generation...etc..

bahram jan, nowrouz-e shoma va hameye doostan, peeruz.

I think I know what mansour jan meant by "get the best/most out of our players".
this is a skill that only the more successful coaches have and is what draws the line/distinction between them and the regular, riff-raff coaches of the world.

in simple terms it is when a driver can get the most torque and therefore, speed our of a car. what sets great drivers apart from other average ones is they know how to get that extra 10-15 miles per hour out of the very same engine and car that the rest fail to achieve.

for that, the coach needs to be aware of many things, especially the players and the overall potential & the entire capability of our football.
I believe CQ is not able or is not aware of, if we have to give him the benefit of the doubt, to do this. partly because I think he still doesnt know our football fully. perhaps due to a bunch of fools hanging on around him doing "bah bah, chah chah", which lulls him into thinking he's doing the right thing! we have some of those here too. so chances are there are some there too!!

I mean the chap hardly stays in Iran or very rarely bothers to go to different cities to watch, at least, the top 5-6 clubs in the league. so how will he know if player X or Y in one of these clubs can give him that extra 5% boost to his team?

and if we stay honest with ourselves (unlike others who close their eyes and stay obedient till the eventual failure) we ought to recognize our team doesnt function on all cylinders. there are a few areas where we CAN do better.
THIS is what mansour and me and some others talk about when we say he needs to get the BEST and MAXIMUM out of our football.


if you're squeezing your orange, squeeze it fully until the LAST drop. CQ is throwing the orange away with a little bit of juice still left in it. and who knows... maybe with that little bit we can win those games we draw or draw those games we lose.
sort of like the proverb "the last straw on camel's back".I think it is these last straws that are missing from his otherwise decent decisions in most (not all) occasions



as an example, I'd say his latest squad selection (for kuwait game) was decent enough. except I'd give it at 90%. the last 10% shd have been factors like:
1- include a tall player who can give you the aerial option. especially when you have good crossers from both flanks
2- and you know you CANT perform well on that horrible ground. meaning, you shd have had different tactics going into the game.
and for those tactics, their specific player selection.

so, for our younger members in general forum reading this: he didnt squeeze our football fully , till the last drop. he did an average squeeze and left some drops back (like seyed salehi or ghazi or hatami)
in other words, he left some stones unturned, whereas his duty is to leave none unturned.
(ok, I'm all out of proverbs & analogies here )

[zzgloo]

Payman e aziz..( by the way,aidet mobarak )...
You, essentialy say the same thing as Mansour...to whom I responded with the previouse post...and I explain my point again for you with a different terminology..
The last, point you stated ( The coach must suit us ), is the single most important issue......
We asked and offered the job to CQ....and we can not expect CQ to understand the complexity of IRAN,in the short time....
,may be more relevent topic, is what we have disccussed here often, as " What is it that suits us the best ".......as I remember, most of us here, voted for eastern European coaches...whom are a happy medium between and Iranian coach and The western European coaches.
.......................
My personal opinion,is that CQ has no fault, as he is doing the best he can , and has been the most honest with us....he is just not the right man for the job.....
Iran, is going through a special time in its history...politicaly,culturaly,....in such unusual period of time...A good Iranian coach may be best .

[zzgloo]

Mokhlesim. Again, just like what I mentioned about Martin earlier, you are looking at this backward. Of course, it is all about qualification, even for you and me.

My point is in order to get there, he should have achieved point a and b in my first post in this thread, and then I discussed how point b is particularly important against slow and dirty style of arab football teams:

Mansour e aziz..( Aidet mobarak )..I did look back again and paid attention to your "a" and " b " points....in which you suggested what he should have done is first get the most out of players, and develope new younger generation...etc..
But, the reality at hand..is different....

1- He is a hired Gun.
2- Developing players is not the TM head coach job, it is the job of the League.
3-He is under a massive pressure,both to success and not to get fired.
4- based on his over reliance to legioners, it is safe to assume, he does not believe, our football is good enough to reach the WC without help.
5-It is extremely hard ,close to impossible,to develope anything right in Iran.

and finaly :

6- If, success in Iranian football requires a head coach to know " Jumping jack "," Politics ", " Baby sitting ",," over coming political propaganda ", " remedy lack of talent production by the league "," solving cultural issues ", etc,etc,...
it is not the fault of CQ he is not good at those.......
that is why, he needs to get things done,,without getting fired,by " any means neccessary ", and get the hell out !

[Doctor DOOM]

Let me first start with my quote in first post:



Perhaps time is already lost and too late (not to me), but had Carlos paid more attention to this point and injected more youth next to couple of our Euro based players, I had more hopes comes June even if still had the same track record.

well good luck with that. for this to happen he, first, shd STAY PUT IN IRAN at least for a period.
the guys behaves as if he's standing on hot-plates and is always on the run (vacation)!!! when he shd be visiting cities and watching at least the top 5-6 IPL teams.
I said good luck, becoz when people bring this up, we have the apologist brigade screaming bloody murder and blasphemy as if it's the end of the bloody world and we're all anti-christ!!!

that's why I believe even after 2+ years at the helm, he still doesnt know iranian football and its potential and resources.

well ...that and the fact that he chose an insignificant nobody as his assistant, who is just as new to iran as CQ himself.

[Doctor DOOM]

@ Doc ,which of the bellow do you believe in :

1- Good Iranian coaches are better than Good Forign coaches .
2-For Iran,Good Iranian coaches are better than good forign coaches .
3-GN is better than CQ.
4-GN is better than CQ for IRAN.
5-CQ is a wrong forign coach, but a right forign coach is best choice for IRAN.

bahram jan,
1 & 2 -
I dont care if the coach is iranian or non-iranian. I, unlike others, have no preference based on the origin of the man as in the end, what matters to me is how they can help TM.
an Iranian can communicate better, may know our culture better and deal with players' psyche better. will know our natural style, but may or may not stick with it.
while a foreigner may or may not bring modernity and a new and hopefully elevated sense of professionalism into the team. may or may not bring new ideas that can improve our quality.
it all depends on who. even then I cant say who unless they actually take the helm and have a decent amount of time and number of games under their belt.

in other words, I dont care if it is a vatani or farangi, cheshm aabi. what matters is if they can improve TM or not.


3 & 4 -
comparing cold, hard facts/numbers, GN did better than what CQ has done so far. that's undeniable.
but it's not all about numbers and scores. I always go beyond these and bring in other factors such as the quality of performances, irrespective of the result of the game. there are games we play very well and show improvement in quality, but lose or draw the result. and vice versa where we play pathetically and yet, through luck we win (like the game in tashkent).
I think TM under CQ in rare patches (too rare imo) shows modernity that wasnt seen in GN's tenure. and that is natural as CQ is far more exposed to modern football than GN.
but at the same time, GN recognized and more or less stayed true (until we met skorea, where he lost his nerves) to the natural style of iranian football which is an attacking one. his team was more comfortable with itself. while CQ's doesnt look as comfortable.

5- I think my answer to #1 and #2 addressed this. it doesnt matter where the coach is from. for me, there are certain criteria that need to be followed, no matter how famous or unknown, how old or young or what color his eyes:

A) stay true to iranians' attacking nature.
we have always looked more comfortable and at ease going forward than defending. always. even when we're not scoring enough goals (which has its reasons in many factors such as formation, lone striker, lack of playmaker, ..)


B) the team must have a balance in age/experience and youth/energy
too much on either side has negative impact on the team.


C) the foremost and vital factor in selections is the FORM and QUALITY of the player.
not his name, or which club he belongs to or what part pf the world he plays or how famous or popular he is.
India's renowned IIM (serious rival to MIT) is one of the few (if not the only) top class institute where who you are, where you come from, how poor or rich you are, what color you are, what sex you are, whose son or nephew you are ... none of that matters as you are only a 7 or 8 digit number. that's it. and the only way you get the seat is if your registered number gets the higher score.
to me, that's the most fair method of meritocracy. you could be the son of a great politician and fail, but a villager from some far off district with torn shirt may get the seat only because he had more correct answers.
I follow the same thing in football. that's why I cant understand it when ppl say "oh but X plays in this club" when Y has shown to be in better form and of higher quality .... but just happens to be playing in a smaller club or in iran.


D) shd be able to get the BEST & MAXIMUM out of our resources
we are lucky to have great potential and all sorts of players available, almost at any time.
that leaves the hands of a coach open to choose whatever and several tactics for games. we have pacy and quick players, highly technical and skillful ones, very physical and aggressive ones, some highly imaginative and creative ones, those who can play in the middle or those who can take care of wings, tall or short, ... etc. you name it, we've got it.
so the coach MUST have a balanced team having all these options available to him.
and if an option is available to him, but he doesnt pick, ... then that team does not represent our true potential or what Iran is capable of.
so the coach shd get the MAXIMUM out of what's available to him. if you cant, then you are not a good coach.
leave no stone un-turned.


E) and last but not least, he should SUIT us and our needs.
he could be the greatest ever coach on earth or milky way galaxy. but when his style, nature and attitude doesnt suit us and our needs of the time, then he is not the right man for the job. simple. he could be the greatest in another team/country/environment, though.

CQ is such a coach. he could be the God of coaching for all I care. but his outlook, tactics and mindset just doesnt suit us and I doubt he could dig us out of the hole he's thrown us in. simply because what is required of us for the remaining 3 games is a direct contrast to what he believes in and is trying to promote.

[Mansoor]

Inshallah.
To me, it more seems like we're all waiting so taghi be tughi bokhore va berim Jam-e-Jahani.
....

We sort of are waiting for that, but it is more like Dejaghah be Gucci bokhore va berim Jamejahani.....

[Mansoor]

I do not think CQ cares much or gives a lot of thought to brining youth,or helping the league or the youth and all that....
..
His Plan of action is : " Get to the world cup by any means neccessary " !!

Mokhlesim. Again, just like what I mentioned about Martin earlier, you are looking at this backward. Of course, it is all about qualification, even for you and me.

My point is in order to get there, he should have achieved point a and b in my first post in this thread, and then I discussed how point b is particularly important against slow and dirty style of arab football teams:

To me, the main reason Queiroz is facing "possible" failure (or perhaps I should say "most likely", according to Agha Majid's listed stats and "so far performances") is the point b in above quote. I know Martin disagreed about that to be the part of his "job", but here is the reason:

Why is it that we have trouble with most arab teams while they get humbled when facing East Asian giants or European teams? SPEED.

[zzgloo]

I do not think CQ cares much or gives a lot of thought to brining youth,or helping the league or the youth and all that....
..
His Plan of action is : " Get to the world cup by any means neccessary " !!

[Kaiser Amir]

Let's wait and see. Maybe we'll learn something we don't know ...

Inshallah.
To me, it more seems like we're all waiting so taghi be tughi bokhore va berim Jam-e-Jahani.
But, indeed, let's hope Queiroz will pull something out of his hat and make his critics look like idiots...