QUEIROZ vs BRANCO Discussion!

[NFL]

Look i presented you with historical results of how weak TM was before CQ, which is why the majority of TM fans who followed TM in that period were worried about playing gulf countries. Its the truth its was nerve racking playing those teams. Please show me your simple math and can quantify a feeling. You and the 20% of "fans" that want to see TM fail so you can get your way are not the majority.

Majority of fans were "worried" about playing Arab teams back then? it was nerve racking, ha?

Look at these two threads (from 2007) and see for yourself how "worried" and afraid our fans were of facing Arab teams.

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?52821-Talks-from-Kuwaiti-Syrian-and-UAE-Forums...&highlight=WAFF

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?43985-WAFF-Games-Schedule-Anounced&highlight=WAFF

now back up your claim, or stay off my posts.

[tooleh khers]

Majority of fans were "worried" about playing Arab teams back then? it was nerve racking, ha?
Look at these two threads (from 2007) and see for yourself how "worried" and afraid our fans were of facing Arab teams.

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?52821-Talks-from-Kuwaiti-Syrian-and-UAE-Forums...&highlight=WAFF

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?43985-WAFF-Games-Schedule-Anounced&highlight=WAFF

now back up your claim, or stay off my posts.

People will belittle TM, its old players (even legends), belittle its results even belittle our last continental trophy which is the third most important football competition in the continent just to make their favorite coach look good. But what is worst of all these for our football is the lowering of expectations and standards of our team. Top teams are top teams because they are expected to be so. We certainly had different expectations when Ghotbi was in charge or when Ghalenoi was in charge. During their tenure losing to Korea in the quarters was grounds for execution. Playing defensively against a strong korea was heavily frowned upon now it is a completely different story.

I hope CQ is able to get us to the Asian cup finals and I will be the first to praise him but so far not so good and definitely beneath results obtained by other coaches. Yes our football got results before CQ. Our problem in Iran is we idolize people and build them up to unrealistic statures then shut anyone up who has anything to say differently. Statistically as far as Iranian football is concerned for now Branko has yielded better results with far less and fans expectations were much more during his tenure. We actually expected him to advance in 2006 which is of course the way it should be and did not celebrate 1-0 defeats. I will reserve final judgement on CQ results at the end of the Asian cup and hope that he is the best ever we have had.

[persian_pooya]

If it wasn't for Taremi missing that sitter against Portugal Iran would have topped their group at the 2018 World Cup and gone on to defeat Russia in the round of 16 before playing and losing to Croatia in the quarterfinals. What did Branco do with a more talented team in 2006? Nada. End of discussion

[tooleh khers]

Perhaps results in minor and U23 tournaments should be removed from the table, only competitions that both coaches lead TM in should be considered, and World Cup appearances and World Cup points should be added for a more accurate comparison. Also similar rules for determining FIFA ranking gives a better comparison. Also interesting that it is comparing Iran's rank in the 2014 World Cup as opposed to the 2018 World Cup where we were ranked 18th.

Asian games is the third most important international football competition in Asia. It is not a minor tournament and teams that took part in that competition were posted before. Youth competition title is worth still more than no title in seniors. Even if you take all that away Branko still had better results with far less and TM played a much more attractive football. I personally think our best performance (not result) was in 1998 and not 2018. That team got respect and players from that team went on to big European clubs as oppose to 2018 when no one was signed.

Fans have different tastes and opinions on football and In my humble opinion which is of a fan our performance was nothing to brag about. We had lowest passes, no goals from open play, halves with 0 shots, over defensive play and were mostly guilty of respecting opponents too much and losing games before they even began. We saw Spain and Portugal were both over hyped and both exited the tournament early.

[tooleh khers]

If it wasn't for Taremi missing that sitter against Portugal Iran would have topped their group at the 2018 World Cup and gone on to defeat Russia in the round of 16 before playing and losing to Croatia in the quarterfinals. What did Branco do with a more talented team in 2006? Nada. End of discussion

Iranian football has always been a call or a goal away from an actual achievement. What has CQ gotten us after million paid to him and millions invested by the federation? is he supposed to get the same results as Mayeli Kohan? Regarding talent, Cq team has the most legionaries in the history of TM and definitely more talented than Branko's team. Players like Azmoun, Taremi, Ansarifard, Ezzatollahi, mohammadi, Pouraliganji, Hosseini, Beiranvand, Dejagah, Shojaei...etc are all very good talented players. Branko's team had a few golden generation players but not the depth we have now. Also if CQ was the coach then do you really think players like Daei and Karimi would have been on his team? Could Daei sprint back to our own box and play defense like Taremi or Azmoun? Stats is where this discussion ends. Thanks.

[tooleh khers]

Yeah, interesting to see that they included a youth level tournament where we used a full senior squad to defeat an U-19 team.

As far as WC performances are concerned, in order to truly assess the results and performance output, it is necessary to know the preparation levels and context of each respective squad.
For instance, the 2014 team was the only team after the revolution (including the '98, and '06 squads, but excluding the '18 team) that failed to play one single friendly match against a fellow, qualified world cup participant. Instead, we only played against teams that offered to pay their own expenses like Trinidad, Montenegro, etc. In 2014, our FA faced unprecedented economic and political sanctions, the likes of which were not felt by the teams of '98 and '06; we were under 6 rounds of UN security council sanctions (which first took effect in December of 2006), as well as a debilitating EU oil embargo, and SWIFT banking sanctions which made payments for friendlies, hotel arrangements, staff salaries exceedingly difficult. The SWIFT sanctions took effect in the summer of 2012. The teams of '06 and '98 did not have to endure this type or level of adversity.

To prepare for '06, we played friendlies against multiple WC participants: Togo, Costa Rica, Croatia, South Korea. Playing friendly matches against 4 WC qualified teams is quite luxurious preparation compared to the lack of proper friendlies suffered by the '14 squad. Also, they weren't WC qualified teams, but we played Bosnia, and some other team in Tehran before the tournament.

Given the disparity in preparations/caliber of opponents, you would think that the 2006 team should have done better than the 2014 team ..... but guess what, the 2006 squad was eliminated from the tournament after just the second match day of the group stage, while the 2014 team had a reasonable chance of qualification to the second round even on the final day of the group stage. And of course, no need to mention the 2018 WC, where we earned more points than in any previous WC finals campaign in TM history despite a very tough group.

We would also be remiss if we didn't mention some other key considerations omitted by the table, such as that in 2005, 50% of the teams competing in the final round of the Asian WCQs were able to enjoy direct qualification to the WC (two groups of 4 teams, the top two of each advancing), and that in 2014, that percentage would dwindle down to 40%, (two groups of five teams, the top two in each group qualifying directly), and that in 2018, the percentage would shrink further to 33% (two groups of six teams, only the top two advancing from each). Nonetheless, despite the increased difficulty and absence of superstars playing as regulars in the Bungesliga, or Serie A, in both the '14 and '18 campaigns, TM qualified to the WC as group leaders, whereas in '05, we finished as group runner up, and enjoyed the distinction of being the only single team in the group that failed to defeat Bahrain in Bahrain, despite possessing a full, injury-free squad which consisted of Mahdavikia, Karimi, Hashemian, Rezaei, Zandi, etc.

It also seems the table failed to mention how br-AN-G0H's "coaching" put the national team of Iran on the verge of elimination from the '06 WC during only the preliminary qualification round, and that because of this desperate situation, Vahid Hashemian (who just came off a season as the #3 goalscorer in the Bundesliga) finally agreed to return to Team Melli despite previous refusals. Also, both Dadkan and Mohsen Mehralizadeh (a member of Khatami's cabinet) FORCED br-AN-G0H to recall Khodadad Azizi, despite the coach's opposition. In other words, we needed a prime Mahdavikia, Karimi, Hashemian, Rezaei, a young and hungry Nekounam, and Khodadad Azizi on the field simultanesouly just to beat Qatar in injury time in a preliminary WCQ match to advance to the final qualification round, LOOOOOOOL.

[sirvan]

One has worked for Real Madrid, Manchester United, Portuguese national team ao, the other has worked for some Chinese club and Perspolis ao. Who is better: Redondo or Luka Maric?

[KC McElroy]

Asian games is the third most important international football competition in Asia. It is not a minor tournament and teams that took part in that competition were posted before. Youth competition title is worth still more than no title in seniors. Even if you take all that away Branko still had better results with far less and TM played a much more attractive football. I personally think our best performance (not result) was in 1998 and not 2018. That team got respect and players from that team went on to big European clubs as oppose to 2018 when no one was signed.
Fans have different tastes and opinions on football and In my humble opinion which is of a fan our performance was nothing to brag about. We had lowest passes, no goals from open play, halves with 0 shots, over defensive play and were mostly guilty of respecting opponents too much and losing games before they even began. We saw Spain and Portugal were both over hyped and both exited the tournament early.

Asian Games starting in 2002 is a U23 tournament. The West Asian games are a minor tournament. Mexico is from CONCACAF. Four is greater than one. Eighteen is lower than twenty five.

[tooleh khers]

One has worked for Real Madrid, Manchester United, Portuguese national team ao, the other has worked for some Chinese club and Perspolis ao. Who is better: Redondo or Luka Maric?

Comparing only results achieved in Iran. I could care less he has worked for Real Madrid. I only follow and watch Iranian football with the exception of international tournaments of course.

[Abedzadeh]

Yes, I responded to the table by pointing out its glaring omissions as well as important contextual deficiencies.

Did you have anything substantive to add?

[tooleh khers]

Yes, I responded to the table by pointing out its glaring omissions as well as important contextual deficiencies.

Did you have anything substantive to add?

Substantive like your "contextual deficiencies" or substantive like actual stats? fact we spent more in 2014 and 2018 than we did in 2006. CQ salary alone should be substantive enough. Fact 2006 got better result than 2014. 25th vs 28th and we did not park the bus and have the lowest number of passes and shots ever and had a more difficult group with two top 10 seeds. Fact: our 2014 and 2018 teams had the most number of players playing abroad and had more depth than 2006. 2006 we had few talents and remaining players from golden generations who mostly did not play every game or all together. You happily give CQ credit for players playing abroad and having talent but you use the same to take credit away from another coach? I respect you giving credit and praising a coach but to demonize and insult someone else to do it is wrong. in the end all that remains is stats no one remembers any context.

[tooleh khers]

Asian Games starting in 2002 is a U23 tournament. The West Asian games are a minor tournament. Mexico is from CONCACAF. Four is greater than one. Eighteen is lower than twenty five.

What about losing to a team whose country was invaded by a bunch of people holding sticks? 1 u23 trophy is greater than 0 trophies. 3rd is lower than 6th. 15th is lower than 28th.

[DR Strangemoosh]

. in the end all that remains is stats no one remembers any context.

Absolutely the opposite.

No one gives a crap about inconsequential things like 25th vs 28th but people (football pundits at least) still remember how we played against Argentina in 2014 - the spirit and the discipline. Finally peopled noticed Team Melli for the first time since we beat USA and we were getting plaudits everywhere.

I don't know if you travelled to all these world cups but that Germany WC was the most deflating experience ever as a fan, and Brazil was the beginning of the resurgence of TM in the minds of ourselves as fans and pundits worldwide.

[DR Strangemoosh]

These quotes from another site - I agree with the gist of this, although still think Shojaei is a wasted spot even if his role is something which cannot be quantified. In any case, I think the key point of these discussions which people don't appreciate are the unquantifiable things - not just showing a table or saying 25th vs 28th but the point of building something, be it a physical unit on the pitch or an atmosphere or spirit outside. On both sides of this debate, I don't understand the obsession with statistics as if these are the most important thing in football?

These are the points that I don't think some people don't get when just comparing CQ and Branko (I feel kinda dirty putting them in the same sentence)...

Everything is professional with CQ. Every little detail and I love how meticulous he is in getting things rolling and planning. Best of wishes to our boys. I hope we can have a great tournament. I was sad that Saeid Ezzatollahi was injured. He is so strong and good in the air and its a shame he will not be there to help the team.
.

Of course, how many years was he working with fergie and United? Over 10 years? He knows everything there is to it, technical, physiological, tactical and planning, we could not have had a better coach to lead us with all the shortcomings and problems we have had.
It was a fluke, blessing to our football, to steer away from those dark days of term melli back in 2006 days when players ruled the coach and the team and guys like mirzapor capped 80 times.

The sheer number of players we have in every position and how they have to fight for their spot and how hard it is to crack the line up is indication of how far and good Iran has come under the guidance of CQ. There is a very disciplined order of how things get done in TM which was never present there before CQ. From what I have read he has meetings with the captains and as an example he did in the UAE airport for 30 minutes 1-1 with Shojai in which he is suppose to relay certain information or guidance to the players. Not only he is a great leader he also trusts and puts a lot of responsibility in his leaders hands such as Shojai for many other factors that the regular fan does not see. People are quick to complain about Shojai and calling him bad or old but the thing is he has so many qualities and usages which someone like CQ continues to pick because he relies on him heavily for certain duties besides playing which could even be more important than him actually playing. This is not to say he can not play or should not be used as I am sure there are many instances which he can benefit the team greatly.

[NFL]

People will belittle TM, its old players (even legends), belittle its results even belittle our last continental trophy which is the third most important football competition in the continent just to make their favorite coach look good. But what is worst of all these for our football is the lowering of expectations and standards of our team. Top teams are top teams because they are expected to be so. We certainly had different expectations when Ghotbi was in charge or when Ghalenoi was in charge. During their tenure losing to Korea in the quarters was grounds for execution. Playing defensively against a strong korea was heavily frowned upon now it is a completely different story.

I hope CQ is able to get us to the Asian cup finals and I will be the first to praise him but so far not so good and definitely beneath results obtained by other coaches. Yes our football got results before CQ. Our problem in Iran is we idolize people and build them up to unrealistic statures then shut anyone up who has anything to say differently. Statistically as far as Iranian football is concerned for now Branko has yielded better results with far less and fans expectations were much more during his tenure. We actually expected him to advance in 2006 which is of course the way it should be and did not celebrate 1-0 defeats. I will reserve final judgement on CQ results at the end of the Asian cup and hope that he is the best ever we have had.

I understand that opinions about coaches and players and team performances are often subjective. It really doesn't bother me that people have extreme and unfair views about coaches or players. of course I am guilty of that too. but what is troublesome for me is when some people feel entitled to decide for themselves who is a true fan and who is not. calling another fellow fan "anti-tm", or question their love or passion for TM. This shit has to stop! and carlos is not helping it (due to his divisive personality).

IMO, the reason behind this is that some of our fans equate TM with the coach and vice versa. so if or when Ali Karimi, Soroush Rafee, Branko, GN, peyrouvani, a journalist, a fan or whomever criticize Carlos, then for some fans, the critic is automatically someone who is anti-TM. the members who were here back in 2005-2006 may remember that we had the same problem bank then. but back then criticizing Branko equated being anti-TM, for some!

as far as the subject of this thread:

Carlos and branko are two professional coaches who get paid to do their job. I think both of them have done a very good job in their respective positions. Obviously Carlos Qeiroz has a high profile resume. for us, who never get a "top of the line" of anything, Carlos was closest to the "top of the line" as we were gonna get. My problem with Carlos is his personality which at times makes him act unprofessionally. His constant whining, when everyone knows that this TM has had the best support among ALL TM teams of the past! His constant infatuation with glorifying himself by putting down Iran and Iranians pretty much any chance he gets. if it was once or twice, one could say ok, what ever. but year after year, comment after comment, sarcasm, belittling, whining, self glorifying. it's too much.

I wish Carlos and TM all the best and I think we have a good shot at winning the cup, but I want CQ gone after this tournament, regardless of results. I don't give a rat's ass if he is the best coach in the history of football. and believe me, I don't want Branko or any coach working in Iran anywhere near TM.