Any analysis of CQ's performance must take into account our TALENT DROUGHT

[Doctor DOOM]

I did NOT say that. I said I pay taxes in the US, and I get to see how my tax dollars are spent in the US. Thus, people in Iran, who want to know how much CQ gets paid, have the right to know how much IFF pays the TM coach since public funds are paying his salary.

Edit: Here is the comment he is referring to:

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?112776-TM-News&p=2330397&viewfull=1#post2330397

I do know how taxes work in Iran and how the bureaucracy in Iran works. Don't try to act like you are the know it all on all things Iranian.

My friend, I'm afraid with some people you might have to speak in ''baby English'' for them to understand your meaning. Next they'll ask you to produce your tax documents filed in Iran!!!! :shrug:




Edit (after reading a page further) - oh wait. They did ask!!!!! ridiculous

[Doctor DOOM]

Everyone here is talking about "talent". Yes, we have talented players but so what? The structure and philosophy of our football is weak, hence even the most talented players don't grow and develop into top notch footballers. Our players lack discipline and don't fully understand the meaning of being a "professional footballer". Do you folks remember Karimi in BM? Yes, loads of talent, he lasted...what, was it 2 or 3 seasons with sporadic play time? In my opinion, our most successful players, those who are on par with the top layer of players in European leagues, were Daie, Hashemian, Nekoonam, and of course Mahdavikia - all the rest may have gotten their foot in the door but didn't have the mettle to remain as a long term fixture. Anyone remember the 2002 US WC team? Talk about mediocre talent. Yet, they managed to get themselves to the quarterfinals and barely lose to Germany 1-0. TALENT IS NOT ENOUGH!!!
I've always said, the most talented players I've played with were during my high school years in Iran but alas, talent only gets you so far, it discipline, work ethic and a clear strategy that'll allow you to succeed.

You are very correct. Simply having talent is not enough to make one a great player. One needs a lot of peripheral factors to result in a top quality player. Factors like proper facilities and infrastructure, good coaching, good league competition, good training, ... etc. etc.

But here, in this thread, the focus of the ... ahem ... 'defense' is lack of talent that is supposed to excuse lack of progress in quality of TM performances. And as far as the topic of presence or absence of talent in Iran is concerned, we certainly DO have talent ... and compared to majority of our continent, in abundance too.

[ramingeles2000]

Wow. Could this thread be more tragically ill-timed ??? Hahaha. I don't think so.
With our youngsters winning the WAFF tournament, despite some one sided refereeing???


Lads like Aliyari (my new favorite player), Mohammad, Motahari, Cheshmi, Daneshgar, ... showing very mature and quality performances.


Hoo boy.... talk about absolute wrong timing.

Hoo boy, how our standards have fallen. I guess these days, the measure of Iranian football is our performance in the super-prestigious WAFF tournament.

[ramingeles2000]

More talent than all the countries outside Japan, Korea and Australia I'd say. Right now we have even more talented players than Australia as well Imo

You can't really believe that we have more talent than Australia, who just won the Asian Cup?

[Doctor DOOM]

Wow. Could this thread be more tragically ill-timed ??? Hahaha. I don't think so.
With our youngsters winning the WAFF tournament, despite some one sided refereeing???


Lads like Aliyari (my new favorite player), Mohammad, Motahari, Cheshmi, Daneshgar, ... showing very mature and quality performances.


Hoo boy.... talk about absolute wrong timing.

[ramingeles2000]

of course there is no evidence that CQ stayed because he saw potential, but what would be the biggest motive for him to stay in Iran rather than going to a bigger national team or going to a premier league or la liga team? An educated assumption would be that he see's something in our football that kept him here. Despite the lack of support he has received he STILL satyed.....I think Iran has grown on him over the years but that alone surely cant be enough for a reknowned foreign coach to stay. Im curious to know then.....what do you think the reason is that he stayed?

Very clear and simple answer to your question, CQ came in 2011 because of two things:
a) monetary incentive....the moeny he got in Iran he surely wouldn't have gotten in many other places. he explicitly said he wanted to coach a national team with a good chance of making the world cup which leads me to my next point.
b) at the time we had promising youngsters like hajsafi, afshin, ansarifard, and sadeghian along with some veteran players in nekounam, teymourian, hosseini, khalatbari, and rahamti which all had a promising make up for the 2014 WCQs so I don't agree at all that we were terrible by any means. Let alone the fact that we had our easiest drawing in our WCQ history.

^ all of that was his incentive to come in 2011.....thats a much different incentive than when he re-signed after the WC so plz dont make the 2 separate circumstances into 1.

JB is not a substitue, that is totally false. The only time he was ever a sub was his first month in the team when he was getting acclamated to dutch football but from that moment on, he was a consistent starter unless he was fighting off an injury like he is currently. JB has been a class above his oposition, there is no doubt in my mind that he will soon be where mahdavikia was when he tears it up for AZ this season when he gets fully fit again. Azmoun was 18 when he was coming off the bench for RUbin, a year later when he was 19 they starting rotating him in and out of the starting line up. Take into account this is one of the better/bigger clubs in the russian league too so quit belittling what these youngsters have done so far. Ezzi is unproven at the club level you're right, but he has held his own and done more in his 2-3 TM caps than any DM in Iran could, and the kid is a teen for crying out loud. I

TO answer your last question....I'm not saying that they are equivelant to mahdavikia, hashemian, karimi, rezaie, etc. but im saying that they have potential to be there one day. All those guys i just used as an example from the 2005-7 era you're talking about didn't turn that way over night or with a lack of experience. They did a lot to prove themselves and get noticed....these young guys we have are getting noticed earlier than they were and are backing it up. That to me shows a lot of promise.

Thanks for the thoughtful write up, aziz. To answer your first question, I think that he stayed for the same 2 reasons 99% of human beings stay at a job: because he receives a very competitive salary and because he feels appreciated. Imagine, every single country he visited with TM, waves of Iranians begged him to stay and supported him and gave him credit. Compare this to his prior experience in Portugal, where the Portuguese press lambasted him for not using Cristiano properly, or with his time at Man U, where, because Alex Ferguson refused to talk to the press, it was CQ's job to address the vicious British press every day and answer their absurd, insulting questions each and every day. In Man U CQ was always at odds with Roy Keane because CQ had so much power in coaching the team, and this created a stressful atmosphere too. Now, all the players obey him without question.

Simply put, the Iran job provides a coach like CQ with something he's never had before: an obedient set of players who respect him, and a fan base that adores him. Of course, he believes we have the potential to make the WC but we've always had that potential, regardless of what players are at his disposal.


I agree that our young players have a lot of potential. And I hope more than anything that Jahanbakhsh has the type of impact that Mahdavikia did. But so far, he hasn't matched what a young 20-22 year old Mahdavikia had achieved in the Bundesliga, and his role for team melli has yet to crystallize.

I think we both agree: there is a lot of potential, but the point is that potential doesn't equate to current abilities and my only point is that if CQ had talent like we'd had in prior generations, his results would be much better. I'm not saying our players aren't good, I'm saying that for iranian standards, we've had much much better so it's not fair to judge CQ without taking this fact into consideration.

CQ can drill the players, prepare them, ask for friendlies, etc, but at the end of the day, it takes that 1-2 seconds of quick thinking and reactions that GREAT players undergoing rigorous daily English/Italian/Spanish/German practices have (kia, hashemian, karimi, teymourian in his prime, nekounam) that makes the difference in international football.

If you look at past TMs, it was always moments of individual brilliance that won our greatest games, NOT being well-coached or organized defensively. Think about Daei's incredible through-ball to Azizi, Mahdavikia's incredible 1-on-1 run in WC98, Karimi's hat trick against SK, karimi's perfect cross to hashemian against Japan in 2005, nekounam's free kick against SK in WCQ2010 and all the goals we've scored off of set pieces (including Iran vs Mexico, Nekounam's goal against Saudi Arabia in WCQ2010, etc).

We had the players, but lacked the coaches. imagine if CQ had players like azizi, bagheri, daei, karimi etc in their prime!

[ali alipour]

It's funny people think we have genuine talent at the moment. Aside from 2-3 good players who aren't even performing at the moment in Europe we have nothing compared to the Daei, Karimi, Mahdavikia and etc era.

I feel you bro turkmenistan and oman have way more talent than iran. If it wasnt for queiroz we wouldnt even be tying these teams, 3-0 loss at best.

[Gotham]

Great point and perspective.

Not all, but most the players in the list you mentioned weren't good enough to make it in Europe. If they were, they would have gone. They weren't European-level talent, they were simply the victim of the Iranian hype machine. If they were so great, they would have had fantastic IPL careers at the very least, and of that list, only a handful had even that.

Some of PFDC's members don't want to hear the truth. They want to believe that good IPL players are super amazing football prodigies who haven't made any international name for themselves because of sanctions, khomeini, sepah pasdaran, lack of football infrastructure, too much kabob, etc but they still can't address the fact that prior generations of players had ALL THESE SAME HANDICAPS and were still able to play in Europe's top clubs because they were GREAT players.

I know my viewpoint isn't particularly uplifting or positive, but it's the truth.

It's funny people think we have genuine talent at the moment. Aside from 2-3 good players who aren't even performing at the moment in Europe we have nothing compared to the Daei, Karimi, Mahdavikia and etc era.

[Ghermez Agha]

There's so much I disagree with in this post, aziz.

First, there's no evidence that CQ stayed because he saw "special potential" in our youngsters. This is what you say, but nowhere has CQ said "I'm excited about our youngsters potential" or "I think the future is very bright with our young players in Europe" or anything to that effect. In fact, to the contrary, a chief complaint of CQ critics is that he always puts down our football and doesn't give credit to our talents. You're saying that CQ only stayed because our talent is so great that he knows "there's no way we could fail". What are you talking about? If CQ had taken the reigns because he thought he couldn't fail, why would he have taken the job in 2011, when we were TERRIBLE and our talent was even WORSE?

I agree that it's exciting that 3 of our young players have gone to Europe. But let's not overhype things here. Jahanbakhsh has had consistent playing time and has had a solid club career thus far, but let's not exaggerate. 1 good season in a relegation-bound team, and another good season in the 2nd division doesn't make him mahdavikia, who was an immediate starter and STAR in a competitive Bundesliga team. Azmoun also has great potential, but hasn't accomplished much yet in a weak Russian league and still hasn't proven he's a starter in Europe. Ezatollahi is 100% unproven, but again very exciting. You're talking about potential (and I hope youre right) but I'm pointing out realities.

And wow, you can't possibly believe that Azmoun, Ezatollahi, Jahanbakhsh playing as substitutes in Russia and the Netherlands is equally indicative of our talent in 2005-2007 for example, where we had 6-7 starters in the Bundesliga, Serie A and La Liga? Not all European leagues are created equally, especially when players are substitutes.

of course there is no evidence that CQ stayed because he saw potential, but what would be the biggest motive for him to stay in Iran rather than going to a bigger national team or going to a premier league or la liga team? An educated assumption would be that he see's something in our football that kept him here. Despite the lack of support he has received he STILL satyed.....I think Iran has grown on him over the years but that alone surely cant be enough for a reknowned foreign coach to stay. Im curious to know then.....what do you think the reason is that he stayed?

Very clear and simple answer to your question, CQ came in 2011 because of two things:
a) monetary incentive....the moeny he got in Iran he surely wouldn't have gotten in many other places. he explicitly said he wanted to coach a national team with a good chance of making the world cup which leads me to my next point.
b) at the time we had promising youngsters like hajsafi, afshin, ansarifard, and sadeghian along with some veteran players in nekounam, teymourian, hosseini, khalatbari, and rahamti which all had a promising make up for the 2014 WCQs so I don't agree at all that we were terrible by any means. Let alone the fact that we had our easiest drawing in our WCQ history.

^ all of that was his incentive to come in 2011.....thats a much different incentive than when he re-signed after the WC so plz dont make the 2 separate circumstances into 1.

JB is not a substitue, that is totally false. The only time he was ever a sub was his first month in the team when he was getting acclamated to dutch football but from that moment on, he was a consistent starter unless he was fighting off an injury like he is currently. JB has been a class above his oposition, there is no doubt in my mind that he will soon be where mahdavikia was when he tears it up for AZ this season when he gets fully fit again. Azmoun was 18 when he was coming off the bench for RUbin, a year later when he was 19 they starting rotating him in and out of the starting line up. Take into account this is one of the better/bigger clubs in the russian league too so quit belittling what these youngsters have done so far. Ezzi is unproven at the club level you're right, but he has held his own and done more in his 2-3 TM caps than any DM in Iran could, and the kid is a teen for crying out loud. I

TO answer your last question....I'm not saying that they are equivelant to mahdavikia, hashemian, karimi, rezaie, etc. but im saying that they have potential to be there one day. All those guys i just used as an example from the 2005-7 era you're talking about didn't turn that way over night or with a lack of experience. They did a lot to prove themselves and get noticed....these young guys we have are getting noticed earlier than they were and are backing it up. That to me shows a lot of promise.

[mahestan]

prozac mikhai?

I'll take an adderall if you got one

[jumba47]

Last time I checked, you told me to "GTFO", which is "Get The Fuck Out". You fired the first shot so I reciprocated.

prozac mikhai?

[ramingeles2000]

Finally someone hit the nail on the head.

We have potential talent, but no real talent as of yet.

You can't take a diamond out of the ground and put it on a ring. That diamond needs to be worked on and polished first.

These two are different:




Our biggest problem is management and football culture.

So long as we make celebrities out of lazy no talent players, the following generations will have no incentive to do anything different.

So long as bribes and kick backs are a part of our football, we will not see deserving players get their fair chance.

The only solution to our football is to privatize it all. We have fake managers playing with fake players and fake administrators playing with fake money. All of this in a fake league that cares more about covering up tattoos than combating corruption.



Finally, you cannot compare players like Daei, Nekounam, Hashemian, Mahdavikia and Karimi to players like Azmoun, JB, etc.... That is just ridiculous.

How many of these "talents" have people propped up over the years? Let me give you a list:

Nikbakht
Kazemian
Madanchi
Borhani
Majidi
Meydavoudi
Mobali
Sadeghian
Ansarifard
Entezari
Rafat
Oladi
Khalili
Norouzi (rip)


All these guys were supposed PGL "talent".....

In a few years we can add Alishah, Sharifi, Nariman Jahan and Taremi to the list unless some things really change.

Great point and perspective.

Not all, but most the players in the list you mentioned weren't good enough to make it in Europe. If they were, they would have gone. They weren't European-level talent, they were simply the victim of the Iranian hype machine. If they were so great, they would have had fantastic IPL careers at the very least, and of that list, only a handful had even that.

Some of PFDC's members don't want to hear the truth. They want to believe that good IPL players are super amazing football prodigies who haven't made any international name for themselves because of sanctions, khomeini, sepah pasdaran, lack of football infrastructure, too much kabob, etc but they still can't address the fact that prior generations of players had ALL THESE SAME HANDICAPS and were still able to play in Europe's top clubs because they were GREAT players.

I know my viewpoint isn't particularly uplifting or positive, but it's the truth.

[mahestan]

People say "be respectful" because new members like you post things like "get your heads out of CQs ass" and continue to dilute the quality of discussion on this board.

Last time I checked, you told me to "GTFO", which is "Get The Fuck Out". You fired the first shot so I reciprocated.

[ramingeles2000]

Malyat bar daramad haji. I'm not going to share private information with you. And stop being sensitive, what's up with everyone on PFDC saying "be respectful" sheesh. No one is cursing at you or saying anything bad about your family.

You answer my question now, are they not using public funds to pay CQ's salary?

People say "be respectful" because new members like you post things like "get your heads out of CQs ass" and continue to dilute the quality of discussion on this board.

[ramingeles2000]

It's not just 3, those 3 are the ones that have potential to be the best ever in their respective positions. They all made moves to Europe in their teenage years and 2 out of the 3 got consistent match praxis (JB and Azmoun) from the beginning of their arrival. Name me one time in the history of our football that has ever happened. Keep in mind the world class goals JB scored against Ajax to single handedly keep their hopes of survival alive not to mention the many other goals and assists he had in his first season. I'd be more than happy to compile a list of the upcoming golden era in our football consisting of 10-15 extremely talented players since you seem to be unaware of it. You really think CQ would have opted to stay until 2018 if he didn't see this? Why would he stick here with all the shit he is to deal with day in day out only to possibly fail?

Exactly, it was unequal then and it was unequal now....as you mentioned we had 3-4 guys during that era go to Europe and we have had 3-4 guys in this era make the move to Europe, thanks for proving my point. Nothing has changed....if you don't want to acknowledge guys like Amiri who have performed for TM and their club brilliantly by calling them decent to good performances then that shows where the problem is for you. Everyone else sees it, if you chose not to then I'm not sure what to say. A

There's so much I disagree with in this post, aziz.

First, there's no evidence that CQ stayed because he saw "special potential" in our youngsters. This is what you say, but nowhere has CQ said "I'm excited about our youngsters potential" or "I think the future is very bright with our young players in Europe" or anything to that effect. In fact, to the contrary, a chief complaint of CQ critics is that he always puts down our football and doesn't give credit to our talents. You're saying that CQ only stayed because our talent is so great that he knows "there's no way we could fail". What are you talking about? If CQ had taken the reigns because he thought he couldn't fail, why would he have taken the job in 2011, when we were TERRIBLE and our talent was even WORSE?

I agree that it's exciting that 3 of our young players have gone to Europe. But let's not overhype things here. Jahanbakhsh has had consistent playing time and has had a solid club career thus far, but let's not exaggerate. 1 good season in a relegation-bound team, and another good season in the 2nd division doesn't make him mahdavikia, who was an immediate starter and STAR in a competitive Bundesliga team. Azmoun also has great potential, but hasn't accomplished much yet in a weak Russian league and still hasn't proven he's a starter in Europe. Ezatollahi is 100% unproven, but again very exciting. You're talking about potential (and I hope youre right) but I'm pointing out realities.

And wow, you can't possibly believe that Azmoun, Ezatollahi, Jahanbakhsh playing as substitutes in Russia and the Netherlands is equally indicative of our talent in 2005-2007 for example, where we had 6-7 starters in the Bundesliga, Serie A and La Liga? Not all European leagues are created equally, especially when players are substitutes.