Ghotbi - Able coach or Smart Individual

[zzgloo]

Since you still insist on me explaining where Mr. Afzali's comment is unprofessional and insulting, I bolded tone part for you. He can criticize Ghotbi for sure that is his right, but comparing him to movie actors I found unprofessional. How about Mr. Ghotbi's 4 year plan get's Iran to Bangladesh!!! Doesn't that seem like an insulting and sarcastic comment. He doesn't offer any specific criticisem of the plan, for all we know, no one knows what is in it after all. I wish Mr. Afzali read that plan and offered specific criticisem (For which I would have applauded him) rather than making general statements like "Ghotbi's 4 year plan will get Iranian football to Bangladesh". At the end, that is my OPINION (about Mr. Afzali's comments) didn't claim it is a fact.
Another funny part is that in the middle of his interview he still tries to market Ali Daie as the greatest personality of Iranian football!!! He even doesn't say in his opinion. He says it as if it is a fact, what a short memory, while under the leadership of the so called "greatest personality of our football" our TM had the most disasterous performance in the WC qualification. Our team came fouth in a group of 5 teams. If it was couple of months after, I would have thought, people have short memory and forget. But Mr. Afzali doesn't even wait a while before trying to market Mr. Daie and we all know why of course.

Ali Jaan, I very much agree,and consider your post as obviouse....
Mr.afazeli,while a nice man and a friend to PFDC, is a desparate man...he is a kind,who needs to work for some body,as he neither has chrisma to lead, nor enough record...he,only has to find a leader to follow after ...and with those statements,he is buying Loyalities to Daei, and trying to exhanerate himslef,by puting down Ghotbi.

[Ali Chicago]

فوتبال ايران ژيان را با قيمت بنز برگزيد

افاضلى: برنامه ۴ ساله قطبى، ايران را به بنگلادش مى رساند




هومن افاضلى دستيار سابق على دايى در تيم ملى گفت: قطبى با هنرنمايى خود، مى تواند بعد از ۴ سال، سطح فوتبال ايران را با بنگلادش يكى كند. وى اظهار داشت: ناكامى تيم ملى مى تواند دلايل متعددى داشته باشد. يكى از دلايل، ساختارى است كه در كوتاه مدت قابل حل كردن نيست. فردى هم وجود ندارد كه بخواهد با برنامه اى كه ارائه مى كند، آنها را حل كند.او ادامه داد: در تاريخ ۸۰ ساله جام جهانى، ايران فقط در ۳ دوره حضور داشته است. اين معنايش اين است كه اشكالات فراوانى داريم. هميشه خود به خود برخى بازيكن نخبه گرد هم جمع شده اند يا يك مربى برنامه ريز آمده و برخى مسائل فراهم بود، تيم به جام جهانى رفت؛ در غير اينصورت، در اين زمينه هيچ موقع موفق عمل نكرديم. آناليزور سابق تيم ملى با اشاره به اينكه با تعويض دايى مخالف بودم، گفت: از فرصت هاى مقطعى هم خوب استفاده نمى كنيم. دايى در اولين باختش در يك بازى رسمى بركنار شد و فدراسيون به دنبال قطبى رفت.

وى ادامه داد: قطبى در رديف بزرگترين هنرمندان مانند عزت الله انتظامى، جمشيد مشايخى و محمدعلى كشاورز و چه بسا بالاتر قرار دارد. قطبى مى تواند نامزد جايزه اسكار هم شود. اگر دايى بزرگترين شخصيت فوتبالى را از سمت سرمربيگرى بركنار مى كنيم، كسى كه همه دنيا فوتبال ايران را به اسم او مى شناسند، بايد دنبال كسى برويم كه يا در سطح دايى باشد يا بالاتر از او. افاضلى خاطر نشان ساخت: مقايسه بين تروسيه و قطبى مثل بنز و ژيان است كه ژيان را انتخاب كرديم. قطبى را با سلام و صلوات آورديم و پس از آن قول هايى داد كه هيچكدام عملى نشد. نه تيم به جام جهانى رفت و نه ۲ كره اى را كه مى گفت هيچ كس اندازه من نمى شناسد، شكست داديم. زمان قطبى ۳ مسابقه انجام داديم كه ۲ ديدار با تيم هايى بود كه تكليفشان از قبل مشخص شده و انگيزه اى براى ديدار با ما نداشتند. وى با بيان اينكه امارات در مسابقه با ايران از ۷ بازيكن جوانانش استفاده مى كرد، گفت: در تهران اين تيم را به زور با يك گل شكست داديم و مقابل كره شمالى مساوى كرديم و برابر كره جنوبى در حالى كه قطبى ادعا مى كرد، اين تيم را مانند كف دستش مى شناسد، شانس آورديم كه بازى را واگذار نكرديم. افاضلى در مورد ادعاى قطبى مبنى بر اينكه مربيان ايرانى همين ۵ امتياز را هم نمى گرفتند، تصريح كرد: او راست مى گويد زيرا مربيان ايرانى ۶ امتياز مى گرفتند. اگر با دايى بوديم، كره شمالى را شكست مى داديم و اگر با كره جنوبى مساوى مى كرديم، به راحتى به جام جهانى مى رفتيم. وى افزود: از لحاظ آمارى ثابت مى كنم كه كار قطبى با اشكال مواجه بود. تيم قطبى نسبت به دايى از لحاظ آمارى ضعيف تر بود. اگر آمار فنى را بررسى كنيم، مجموع توليدات فنى تيم ملى در اين ۳ بازى از ۳ مسابقه اى كه دايى مربى تيم ملى بود، در مجموع پايين تر بود. كمك دايى در تيم ملى ادامه داد: قطبى به خوبى نظم و انضباط را در تيم ملى رعايت كرد. اين نظم و انضباطى كه قطبى از آن حرف مى زند، شايد در هاليوود باشد چرا كه در تيم ملى اين را مشاهده نكرديم. چه زمانى سابقه داشته كه ۱۰ بازيكن همزمان از تيم ملى جدا شوند؟ هر كس يك جايش را بهانه كرد و رفت. وى در مورد موافقت فدراسيون با برنامه هاى ۴ ساله قطبى، اظهار داشت: بسيار خوشحالم كه اين اتفاق مى افتد چرا كه تا ۴ سال مى توان راجع به برنامه او حرف زد و لذت برد. ممكن است قول قهرمانى جهان را هم بدهد. قطبى حقش ضايع شده كه ۳ بار اسكار سينماى جهان را نگرفته است. افاضلى با اشاره به اينكه ضمانت مى دهم در پايان برنامه ۴ ساله قطبى فوتبال ايران در حد بنگلادش باشد، گفت: تنها جايى كه بين ژيان و بنز با قيمت بنز، ژيان را انتخاب مى كنند، ايران است.

Since you still insist on me explaining where Mr. Afzali's comment is unprofessional and insulting, I bolded tone part for you. He can criticize Ghotbi for sure that is his right, but comparing him to movie actors I found unprofessional. How about another comment Mr. Afzali " Mr. Ghotbi's 4 year plan get's Iran to Bangladesh!!!"?!!! Doesn't that seem like an insulting and sarcastic comment? Mr. Afzali doesn't offer any specific criticisem of the plan, for all we know, no one knows what is in it after all. I wish Mr. Afzali read that plan and offered specific criticisem (For which I would have applauded him) rather than making general statements like "Ghotbi's 4 year plan will get Iranian football to Bangladesh". At the end, that is my OPINION (about Mr. Afzali's comments) didn't claim it is a fact.

Another funny part is that in the middle of his interview he still tries to market Ali Daie as the greatest personality of Iranian football!!! He even doesn't say in his opinion. He says it as if it is a fact, what a short memory, while under the leadership of the so called "greatest personality of our football" our TM had the most disasterous performance in the WC qualification. Our team came fouth in a group of 5 teams. If it was couple of months after, I would have thought, people have short memory and forget. But Mr. Afzali doesn't even wait a while before trying to market Mr. Daie and we all know why of course.

[zzgloo]

You are a wise man,and You have said it the best !
I request, for you to keep me among your friends,even if some times we are at two different extremes !,as I hope that gap narrowing,and our friendship growning, everyday.

[Behrooz]

I think if we had at least one solid attacking midfielder and a reliable center forward(along with a knowledgeable courageous) we would be in better situation than now. We have to get better at youth teams for TM to get better otherwise we have to rely on a couple of individual stars to pull the load. Once we learn to make a few 5-6 passes in a row and shoot at least 5-6times during the game then we know we are on the right track.

We all can argue all we want for the sake of arguments but we won't be able to come to a mutual agreement regarding our point of views on TM.

[maij]

Gentlemen, take it easy. Here is a good read from Behtash Fariba:


هنگامى كه قطبى تيم را تحويل گرفت از ۵ بازى تنها ۶ امتياز داشتيم و اين مسأله مشخص بود كه از لحاظ كسب نتيجه و جايگاهش در جدول وضعيت خوبى نداريم. البته ناگفته نماند قطبى توانست يك موج مثبت را در تيم ملى و بين مردم وارد كند و تقريباً در انتخاب بازيكنان همان راه دايى را رفت. به اعتقاد من اگر از لحاظ امتيازى حساب كنيم قطبى از ۳ بازى كه ۲ تاى آنها بيرون از خانه بود شكستى در كارنامه نداشت و در نتيجه گيرى به اعتقاد من خوب عمل كرد اما از لحاظ صعود محاسبه كنيم او خوب نتيجه نگرفت. در كل ما به هر دليلى به جام جهانى صعود نكرديم. در ديدار مقابل كره شمالى و امارات مى توانستيم زودتر از تعويض هايمان استفاده كنيم. در ديدار مقابل كره جنوبى نيز به جز ۱۵ دقيقه اول توپ و زمين را در اختيار داشتيم اما درست در روزى كه به ستاره هايمان مثل على كريمى و مهدوى كيا چشم اميد دوخته بوديم آنها نتوانستند انتظارات ما را برآورده سازند، اگر كريمى آن كريمى هميشگى بود مى توانست براى كره دردسرساز شود البته تا زمانى كه در ميدان حضور داشت مدافعان حريف ذهنشان معطوف به او بود. به عقيده من حضور نفراتى چون خلعتبرى، حيدرى و تعويض هاى تاكتيكى مى توانست راه را براى پيروزى هموار كند. اين نفرات امتحان خود را در بازى هاى ليگ پس داده اند و مى توانستند با پتانسيل بالا مانع اين ناكامى شوند. در هر صورت اين بازى هم با تمام ايرادات تمام شد و ما از ادامه بازمانديم. در همين راستا بايد از امروز برنامه اى براى فوتبال طرح ريزى كنيم. اولين گام اينكه بايد افرادى را وارد فوتبال كنيم كه توانايى انجام كار را داشته باشند و دوم اينكه به جوانان بها دهيم. مى توانيم از همين امروز از تيم نواجوانان با مربيگرى على دوستى حمايت كرده و آن تيم را براى جام جهانى آينده آماده كنيم. اگر از همين امروز همه چيز را به نااميدى گرفته و فوتبال را رها كنيم چيزى جز ضرر عايدمان نخواهد شد.

Thanks for posting Fariba's comments , but it is hardly anything new or interesting.

I rather debate with Peyman , he makes me alert and be on my toes not to mention , quite challenging ...

[Behrooz]

Gentlemen, take it easy. Here is a good read from Behtash Fariba:


هنگامى كه قطبى تيم را تحويل گرفت از ۵ بازى تنها ۶ امتياز داشتيم و اين مسأله مشخص بود كه از لحاظ كسب نتيجه و جايگاهش در جدول وضعيت خوبى نداريم. البته ناگفته نماند قطبى توانست يك موج مثبت را در تيم ملى و بين مردم وارد كند و تقريباً در انتخاب بازيكنان همان راه دايى را رفت. به اعتقاد من اگر از لحاظ امتيازى حساب كنيم قطبى از ۳ بازى كه ۲ تاى آنها بيرون از خانه بود شكستى در كارنامه نداشت و در نتيجه گيرى به اعتقاد من خوب عمل كرد اما از لحاظ صعود محاسبه كنيم او خوب نتيجه نگرفت. در كل ما به هر دليلى به جام جهانى صعود نكرديم. در ديدار مقابل كره شمالى و امارات مى توانستيم زودتر از تعويض هايمان استفاده كنيم. در ديدار مقابل كره جنوبى نيز به جز ۱۵ دقيقه اول توپ و زمين را در اختيار داشتيم اما درست در روزى كه به ستاره هايمان مثل على كريمى و مهدوى كيا چشم اميد دوخته بوديم آنها نتوانستند انتظارات ما را برآورده سازند، اگر كريمى آن كريمى هميشگى بود مى توانست براى كره دردسرساز شود البته تا زمانى كه در ميدان حضور داشت مدافعان حريف ذهنشان معطوف به او بود. به عقيده من حضور نفراتى چون خلعتبرى، حيدرى و تعويض هاى تاكتيكى مى توانست راه را براى پيروزى هموار كند. اين نفرات امتحان خود را در بازى هاى ليگ پس داده اند و مى توانستند با پتانسيل بالا مانع اين ناكامى شوند. در هر صورت اين بازى هم با تمام ايرادات تمام شد و ما از ادامه بازمانديم. در همين راستا بايد از امروز برنامه اى براى فوتبال طرح ريزى كنيم. اولين گام اينكه بايد افرادى را وارد فوتبال كنيم كه توانايى انجام كار را داشته باشند و دوم اينكه به جوانان بها دهيم. مى توانيم از همين امروز از تيم نواجوانان با مربيگرى على دوستى حمايت كرده و آن تيم را براى جام جهانى آينده آماده كنيم. اگر از همين امروز همه چيز را به نااميدى گرفته و فوتبال را رها كنيم چيزى جز ضرر عايدمان نخواهد شد.

[maij]

majid jan, I think giving you the break down of points, and situation of each coach was reasonable enough.
sorry if it doesnt support daei, though ... in case you wanted that only.

Reasonable?
How about factual, accurate and precise, that is the thing that I provided. Don't tell me that you really believe in what you are saying. I think you are more intelligent than that , but trying to pull a fast one on us.

Historically speaking, you characterization of reasonable means attacking and disagreeing with every coach of Team Melli including and in particular Branko Ivankovic , the most successful coach since the Revolution.

I also think the explanation ( and example ) of "course correction" was enough to demonstrate how usually things are done that more often than not bear fruit.
sorry if it goes against "persist with daei no matter how badly TM is run" philosophy.

so I dont see any "doc doom rules" kind of stuff here.

First of all, it is NOT me against you; it is about FACTS and FICTION. I am not creating anything here or re-inventing the wheel.

You , Agha Peyman Jan , are stating your opinion (reasonable or otherwise)

[Doctor DOOM]

majid jan, I think giving you the break down of points, and situation of each coach was reasonable enough.
sorry if it doesnt support daei, though ... in case you wanted that only.

I also think the explanation ( and example ) of "course correction" was enough to demonstrate how usually things are done that more often than not bear fruit.
sorry if it goes against "persist with daei no matter how badly TM is run" philosophy.


so I dont see any "doc doom rules" kind of stuff here.

[maij]

Majid Jaan.....
Thanks for your post......
Four things stand out in your post....

1- You do not mind prolonging discussions.

Yes ...and spice it a bit

2-Mr.Afazeli is your friend,and a cofounder of PFDC.

Indeed he is , and in real life he is quite a decent guy.

3-You prefer payman over Ghotbi.

Well, I changed my mind on that one ....

4-Your position on " Facts,view points,opinions " were less than convinsing,subjective,and foreign ,to Iranian culture.

I must admit , I have no comment on this

Those points makes us to be very different on the issue at hand.
.................................................. ............................
PS, ...It is very hard to make friends through syber space, as intentions values,and sole of the individuals do not get through ,by spanteniues ,some times wrong spelling,heat of the moment , written words.
....My conclusion, through 5 years of experince here....is to love all, and give benefit of the doubt,as much as possible .......we are all good people here,and require companionship in love of football, and everyday life.....
It will be ideal, to accomidate all,and be true to self .

[maij]

Peyman Aziz...

At least you made it clear where we stand in this discussion.....



I actually thought that you will come up with a more presentable, digestible, reasonable and palatable argument for the term "Failure". Instead , you are back to “Dr. Dooms Rules” , or “I-make-up-the-rules” , “You-follow” or I will LOL !


Enjoy your LOL ...

[Doctor DOOM]

LOL.

I cant beleive I'm actually arguing this simple matter and that there are ppl who say if some fellow is failing in his tasks, we shd allow him to continue his failures till the end!!

hahahahahaha
it's more hilarious than tragic ( now that we're eliminated from the WC ) !

you want to go north and ur guide is taking you south.
you want to continue going south with the delusion of somehow south would become north all of a sudden?
or would you change guides and try someone else and NOT GO FURTHER AWAY FROM THE TARGET?

yes, it is as simple as this.
I cant believe we're actually debating such common sensical issues


-----------

and you have millions of examples to prove this simple logic.

look at saudis.
they saw their first guide is taking them to the wrong direction and they changed their guide.
and voila!
they corrected course and actually qualified.

LOL and you want me to believe if you ppl were in charge of saudi fed'n you'd have persisted with jowhar?
hahahahahaha


I can understand the zeal to defend one's idol and hero.
but we must not forget logic either, in the process.


=================================

if I am to allot the share of blame on both coaches, I must say daei shd bear the brunt of it, ... far more than ghotbi.


-apart from having 5 games against 3 games.

- and getting 40% success, vs. ghotbi's 55%

- daei also had 3 HOME games, vs ghotbi's 1

-remember the last 3 games also were done in a murderous tight schedule and end of season with tired players and .... etc.
while daei's games were adequately spaced apart and during the season, meaning better physical conditioning of players.


yes, BOTH failed. but daei's portion in this failure is at least 65-70% .

[zzgloo]

Majid Jaan.....
Thanks for your post......
Four things stand out in your post....

1- You do not mind prolonging discussions.
2-Mr.Afazeli is your friend,and a cofounder of PFDC.
3-You prefer payman over Ghotbi.
4-Your position on " Facts,view points,opinions " were less than convinsing,subjective,and foreign ,to Iranian culture.

Those points makes us to be very different on the issue at hand.
.................................................. ............................
PS, ...It is very hard to make friends through syber space, as intentions values,and sole of the individuals do not get through ,by spanteniues ,some times wrong spelling,heat of the moment , written words.
....My conclusion, through 5 years of experince here....is to love all, and give benefit of the doubt,as much as possible .......we are all good people here,and require companionship in love of football, and everyday life.....
It will be ideal, to accomidate all,and be true to self .

[maij]

Majeed is absoultely right. You can't take away the exam from a student after he did bad in the first half, when he still has the chance to pass with a good second half of the exam and say he failed to pass it.

It might be likely he fails or it might be a good idea to replace him (if that is possible like in coaching lol), but you can't say he failed if he still ahd the chance and you didn't let him take his chance.

Or to take your example, yes, he might go there and get 80%. You can't forbid him to take the most important exam and then claim he failed to pass it.

You are mixing likelihood with fact here and while barely anyone will disagree that the likelihood Daei & Co. would still have turned things around, especially under the panic and hate that broke out among fans and media, was not very high, as a matter of fact they actually did not fail.

It even still was in there own hands, and we didn't even had to depend on other results at the time he was fired. He was disallowed to try to accomplish a heavy mission, probably rightfully, but that didn't make him fail.

Thank Martin Jan .
To enhance the debate about success or failure of Human Afazeli, a rational and proficient appraisal system will take the overall performance of a person NOT a selected part of.

Let us take a look at Daei/Afazeli records

Overall (all matches)

P 25

W 16

D 6

L 3

GF 44

GA 15

GD 29

Official

P 16

W 9

D 6

L 1

GF 32

GA 10

GD 22

Overall winning percentage of 64.0%
Overall winning percentage of 56.3%



The duo have lost grand total of ONE match in SIXTEEN official competition and including friendlies , they lost THREE out of 25 matches. To add substance, considering both official and overall matches , the team goal scoring & goal difference is something that any coach will be proud of.

[BehzadB]

ghobti and daie failed. Both of them.

Ghotbi failed in getting 6 points from 3 games, Daie failed in getting enough points to keep his job..(6 out of 15 points is 40%).. and because they both did their "failure" in the same tourney , they both share the blame for Iran not making it to the WC.. obviously, 40% of the points in the last 3 games wouldn't have given daie's team enough points to advance.

If we really want to get into the root causes as to why we didn't make to the WC we have to go up and down our football system (which we don't need to as we all know all about it)..

but if we want to take one game, I think the KSA game was the most costly one.. we were playing at home; up on our opponent and we gave up all 3 points and gave 3 points to KSA.. that game really put us in a huge hole.. I doubt Daie or any other coach would have been able to make up for that with "tactics" against NK and SK, away..

the only thing that could have helped us get out of that hole was a little luck, which didn't come our way.. Shojaie hitting the post against NK and Shojaie missing point blank from 2 meters out against SK.. NK and KSA players missing point blank shots against each other..

I think our TM, as it stood, didn't really deserve the WC.. and that is the saddest truth, for me.

[maij]

Dear Maij,

Why are you making things so complicated?.

Ghotbi promised to take Iran to WC and he failed.

In other words, he did not achieve his goal, and therefore he failed.

Thank you very much........That is much simpler and right to the point...HOWEVER , if it came from me , they would jump on my back accusing me of bias an all sort of other accusations....