Ghotbi - Able coach or Smart Individual

[maij]

Majid khan, are you now actually trying to re-define failure? Please, your stance on the whole Daei tenure was a farce and transparent to boot.

Daei (and Afazeli with him) failed miserably. In fact, they were doing so bad that they weren't even given the dignity to fail completely.

A student who fails to pass every exam, doesn't study, is not going to turn up on the most important exam and suddenly get 80%.

Agha Kaz.

If you want to debate and discuss with me , take this hood of obsession called Ali Daei from you face and come back , else I have no interest in any debate.... Peyman is more than a handful , thank you.

[Martin-Reza]

Majid khan, are you now actually trying to re-define failure? Please, your stance on the whole Daei tenure was a farce and transparent to boot.
Daei (and Afazeli with him) failed miserably. In fact, they were doing so bad that they weren't even given the dignity to fail completely.
A student who fails to pass every exam, doesn't study, is not going to turn up on the most important exam and suddenly get 80%.

Majeed is absoultely right. You can't take away the exam from a student after he did bad in the first half, when he still has the chance to pass with a good second half of the exam and say he failed to pass it.

It might be likely he fails or it might be a good idea to replace him (if that is possible like in coaching lol), but you can't say he failed if he still ahd the chance and you didn't let him take his chance.

Or to take your example, yes, he might go there and get 80%. You can't forbid him to take the most important exam and then claim he failed to pass it.

You are mixing likelihood with fact here and while barely anyone will disagree that the likelihood Daei & Co. would still have turned things around, especially under the panic and hate that broke out among fans and media, was not very high, as a matter of fact they actually did not fail.

It even still was in there own hands, and we didn't even had to depend on other results at the time he was fired. He was disallowed to try to accomplish a heavy mission, probably rightfully, but that didn't make him fail.

[kaz]

FAIL ???????????????????????????????

HUH...... Define FAIL .

Fail in what ???

How can you accuse him of FAILING while he never got the chance to finish the job ? He had 3 matches to go , that is 9 possible points !!! If he did not achieve the target , which was reaching the WC , then you can safely say that he failed.

Failure in essence means NOT achieving the target. How can you fail a person , if you kick him out of the exam prematurely ?

OK...I know that some people over have a conviction that they posses some divine power of prediction , I like to count these out and stick to the average Joe. You can not label him a failure, no Sir.


BTW: How come you pick on every man that plays or manages in football , but get so upset when someone else does a Dr. Doom?

Majid khan, are you now actually trying to re-define failure? Please, your stance on the whole Daei tenure was a farce and transparent to boot.

Daei (and Afazeli with him) failed miserably. In fact, they were doing so bad that they weren't even given the dignity to fail completely.

A student who fails to pass every exam, doesn't study, is not going to turn up on the most important exam and suddenly get 80%.

[Behrooz]

Dear Maij,

Why are you making things so complicated?.

Ghotbi promised to take Iran to WC and he failed.

In other words, he did not achieve his goal, and therefore he failed.

[maij]

majid jan, if I were actually given the responsibility of TM and then I had failed, then I'd as soon shut my trap and wouldnt dare open my mouth criticizing others.
THAT is the difference here.

and yes, "fail".
simple math:
6 points off 5 games ... out of a total of 15 = 1.2 points per game!!!!
THAT is absolutely and irrefutably indefensible and is abject FAILURE.

we can go back & forth over where, how, which game, who .... but we BOTH know it was a miserable failure.
the difference is one of us doesnt want to admit to it for whatever reason we may have, be it friendship or whatnot.

Agha Peyman , as a professional you know very well that the term failure , means a failure to achieve a given target, or if used in a project management , a failure to progress as per the plan. A student fails when he can not achieve the passing mark defined by the school. A teacher fails if certain % of his students (defined by the school) do not pass the exam.
A pilot fails when he cannot execute certain maneuvers in the simulator and the list is far too long ...

In all those examples , there are two fundamental requirements.
1) Identification/Definition of Pass mark or grade AND
2) Allowing the candidate to complete his task/test.

Real Life Example: A pilot examiner was sacked from training post, because he failed a Captain in the simulator check ride (competency test) and did not endorse his license to fly, without allowing this Captain to finish his maneuver and by ending the simulator check session prematurely!


If IFF or Afazeli's bosses , had what you refer to as a simple math , as an objective or a target or even a progress meter , then YES he failed , because he did not achieve more than 6 points out of possible 15 like the IFF required him to do.

BTW: Even when the Saudi Prince "da man himself" sacked Nasser Al Jawhar and installed the Khareji coach , he never mentioned the word failure or not reaching the target when referring to Al Jawhar.

How sure were you that Afazeli would not have got all the 9 points in three games ???

This is the professional and proper method of dealing with the subject of failure, now if you or others want to move the post or re-define success or failure according to their own tastes and preferences , then it is entirely another matter.......then we have to go into the domain of ..."My Father's watch is more expensive that your father's "

[maij]

majid jaan.....
I love you, ( In a platonique way ),and I like you......
You may be the single most important,hard working ,for this site !....and you do it with dignity.....
But, you, like us, have your " Blind spots " !!!
Some times I am not sure, if you realy believe in what you are saying here to some of us on threads !, or , you just want to , make the discussions more exciting !, for advancement of Forum health,and survival !

Ma Mokhlis Agha Bahram Hastim....

I like the "Make the discussion more exciting" part and frankly , there is some of this element. This forum needs more activity and a bit more partcipation , so prolonging the arguments is not a bad thing

...
For example, your above post : ...are you addressing me ?, or Mr.afazeli ?
because, it could go either way !.....and you are saying the same old thing,over and over : " Show me facts " !....while at the same time, you say, " Every body is intitled to thier opinion "..........

Facts and views points can be both used in an argument. They are entirely different elements though and I have noticed that quite a few mix these two and portary their own views as facts.

No one prevented you from stating your viewpoints, everyone does it , me included , but you cannot change facts by your viewpoints. Hooman Afazeli was NOT selected to assist Branko because of his language , neither was Daei's selection based on Human's linguistic abilities......If this is what YOU think, it is not a fact is & it is NOT true.

Fact: Afazeli has attended numerous FIFA and AFC classes , I am not sure about the exact numbers but the last one was only a few months ago in Tehran. THAT IS A FACT. If you think that these classes or courses by FIFA are a waste of time , and Afazeli is not a qualified coach , then it is your personal view points NOT facts.

If you don't like Afazeli , (there is no reason why you should or have to) you are entitled to that feeling BUT such feelings does not permit you to defame him.

please, stay away ( just for a minute ),from " Mod " resposibilties, and stay away ,( just for a minute), from " Say nothing unless you have proof " Idea,you subscribe to, all the time.................And tell me :
What is your opinion ?.....No proof is neccessary for me !....what is your personal opinion ?
I do not want your possition,nor do I want your PFDC stand, nor Cultural convictions, nor any poletics......
Just tell me, in your persoanl opinion ;

My responses have NOTHING to do with Mods or staff. You have brought this up in your post and for your info , Human was an active and founding members of this website for many years. I also want to tell you that Hooman is a personal friend of mine. In this neck of the woods , we defend our friends. I would defend you if you were unjsutifably been attacked.

Is Afazeli, right or wrong, in his accusations of Mr.Ghotbi ?
You are my firend ,regardless of your answer !

Afazeli did not ACCUSE anyone ( as far as my Farsi understanding goes). He stated his viewpoints and he is entitled to it. He did not say that Ghotbi robbed a bank. He predicted that Ghotbi will not be improving the standard of Team Melli , he said many other valuable things and his comparison between Trousseir and Ghotbi was spot on as far as I am concerned. Where are the accusations ??

I know you are a good man Bahram. We are not perfect, we have different viewpoints perhaps and in discussions , I find quite good value that I sometime use in my career and social life. It is NOT a shame for one to learn... I don't have to agree with you (and vice versa) and discussions can enrich a person...If you keep a secret . I will tell you this ...You know how much I argue , debate and disagree with Peyman , Right. ..But even considering all these disagreements , I usually find some very good values in his statements....I don't have to agree with him , but that does not mean a thing in my book. In fact I would pick him to coach Team Melli ahead of Ghotbi right now , and that is not a joke.

[Doctor DOOM]

FAIL ???????????????????????????????

HUH...... Define FAIL .

Fail in what ???

How can you accuse him of FAILING while he never got the chance to finish the job ? He had 3 matches to go , that is 9 possible points !!! If he did not achieve the target , which was reaching the WC , then you can safely say that he failed.

Failure in essence means NOT achieving the target. How can you fail a person , if you kick him out of the exam prematurely ?

OK...I know that some people over have a conviction that they posses some divine power of prediction , I like to count these out and stick to the average Joe. You can not label him a failure, no Sir.


BTW: How come you pick on every man that plays or manages in football , but get so upset when someone else does a Dr. Doom?

majid jan, if I were actually given the responsibility of TM and then I had failed, then I'd as soon shut my trap and wouldnt dare open my mouth criticizing others.
THAT is the difference here.

and yes, "fail".
simple math:
6 points off 5 games ... out of a total of 15 = 1.2 points per game!!!!
THAT is absolutely and irrefutably indefensible and is abject FAILURE.

we can go back & forth over where, how, which game, who .... but we BOTH know it was a miserable failure.
the difference is one of us doesnt want to admit to it for whatever reason we may have, be it friendship or whatnot.

[zzgloo]

Azizam , Baradar , Bahram Jan...the man is ENTITLED TO HIS OPINION , as much as you are ...there is NO REASON for you to insult him like that ...

Provide facts , proof , argument NOT humilitaion and insult !

Beside , in what Bible it says that "Iran needs a new culture in football " ? and that Ghotbi is the only one who is capable of accomplishing this cultural revolution ( the way he claimed that he is the only one that can beat South Korea and take Team Melli to South Africa)

Agha jan , when you lose focus on the issue and focus on defaming the people who differ with your opinion, you have lost the plot.

I am sorry Bahram Jan , but this is not right.

majid jaan.....
I love you, ( In a platonique way ),and I like you......
You may be the single most important,hard working ,for this site !....and you do it with dignity.....
But, you, like us, have your " Blind spots " !!!
Some times I am not sure, if you realy believe in what you are saying here to some of us on threads !, or , you just want to , make the discussions more exciting !, for advancement of Forum health,and survival !
...
For example, your above post : ...are you addressing me ?, or Mr.afazeli ?
because, it could go either way !.....and you are saying the same old thing,over and over : " Show me facts " !....while at the same time, you say, " Every body is intitled to thier opinion "..........
.........
please, stay away ( just for a minute ),from " Mod " resposibilties, and stay away ,( just for a minute), from " Say nothing unless you have proof " Idea,you subscribe to, all the time.................And tell me :
What is your opinion ?.....No proof is neccessary for me !....what is your personal opinion ?
I do not want your possition,nor do I want your PFDC stand, nor Cultural convictions, nor any poletics......
Just tell me, in your persoanl opinion ;

Is Afazeli, right or wrong, in his accusations of Mr.Ghotbi ?
You are my firend ,regardless of your answer !

[maij]

this is NOT any defense of ghotbi by any means.

My advice to ppl who HAD the facility & position to make sure TM advances and FAILED AT IT MISERABLY, should keep their peace and not pick on others.

agha jan, ageh in kareh boodi, vaghti sar-e kar boodi in kar ro mikardi.


when you ppl FAILED ( in a much LARGER portion ) you automatically forfeit ANY RIGHT to criticize others.


that trait is highly unbecoming of ppl who're supposedly educated

FAIL ???????????????????????????????

HUH...... Define FAIL .

Fail in what ???

How can you accuse him of FAILING while he never got the chance to finish the job ? He had 3 matches to go , that is 9 possible points !!! If he did not achieve the target , which was reaching the WC , then you can safely say that he failed.

Failure in essence means NOT achieving the target. How can you fail a person , if you kick him out of the exam prematurely ?

OK...I know that some people over have a conviction that they posses some divine power of prediction , I like to count these out and stick to the average Joe. You can not label him a failure, no Sir.


BTW: How come you pick on every man that plays or manages in football , but get so upset when someone else does a Dr. Doom?

[maij]

Majid khan;

Majid jaan, please tone down the sarcasm aziz. You farsi is as good if not better than mine. It might be ( I said might ) your perceived notion and admiration toward certain people who gets in the way.

I don't know what has gotten in your minds lately , but it seems that things are not too well with this kind of tone.


I Have never sat for one hour on my life in any class , or in a private tuition to learn Farsi language....Do you understand that ? What sarcasm you are referring to ???

[Doctor DOOM]

this is NOT any defense of ghotbi by any means.

My advice to ppl who HAD the facility & position to make sure TM advances and FAILED AT IT MISERABLY, should keep their peace and not pick on others.

agha jan, ageh in kareh boodi, vaghti sar-e kar boodi in kar ro mikardi.


when you ppl FAILED ( in a much LARGER portion ) you automatically forfeit ANY RIGHT to criticize others.


that trait is highly unbecoming of ppl who're supposedly educated

[faraz]

فوتبال ايران ژيان را با قيمت بنز برگزيد

افاضلى: برنامه ۴ ساله قطبى، ايران را به بنگلادش مى رساند




هومن افاضلى دستيار سابق على دايى در تيم ملى گفت: قطبى با هنرنمايى خود، مى تواند بعد از ۴ سال، سطح فوتبال ايران را با بنگلادش يكى كند. وى اظهار داشت: ناكامى تيم ملى مى تواند دلايل متعددى داشته باشد. يكى از دلايل، ساختارى است كه در كوتاه مدت قابل حل كردن نيست. فردى هم وجود ندارد كه بخواهد با برنامه اى كه ارائه مى كند، آنها را حل كند.او ادامه داد: در تاريخ ۸۰ ساله جام جهانى، ايران فقط در ۳ دوره حضور داشته است. اين معنايش اين است كه اشكالات فراوانى داريم. هميشه خود به خود برخى بازيكن نخبه گرد هم جمع شده اند يا يك مربى برنامه ريز آمده و برخى مسائل فراهم بود، تيم به جام جهانى رفت؛ در غير اينصورت، در اين زمينه هيچ موقع موفق عمل نكرديم. آناليزور سابق تيم ملى با اشاره به اينكه با تعويض دايى مخالف بودم، گفت: از فرصت هاى مقطعى هم خوب استفاده نمى كنيم. دايى در اولين باختش در يك بازى رسمى بركنار شد و فدراسيون به دنبال قطبى رفت.

وى ادامه داد: قطبى در رديف بزرگترين هنرمندان مانند عزت الله انتظامى، جمشيد مشايخى و محمدعلى كشاورز و چه بسا بالاتر قرار دارد. قطبى مى تواند نامزد جايزه اسكار هم شود. اگر دايى بزرگترين شخصيت فوتبالى را از سمت سرمربيگرى بركنار مى كنيم، كسى كه همه دنيا فوتبال ايران را به اسم او مى شناسند، بايد دنبال كسى برويم كه يا در سطح دايى باشد يا بالاتر از او. افاضلى خاطر نشان ساخت: مقايسه بين تروسيه و قطبى مثل بنز و ژيان است كه ژيان را انتخاب كرديم. قطبى را با سلام و صلوات آورديم و پس از آن قول هايى داد كه هيچكدام عملى نشد. نه تيم به جام جهانى رفت و نه ۲ كره اى را كه مى گفت هيچ كس اندازه من نمى شناسد، شكست داديم. زمان قطبى ۳ مسابقه انجام داديم كه ۲ ديدار با تيم هايى بود كه تكليفشان از قبل مشخص شده و انگيزه اى براى ديدار با ما نداشتند. وى با بيان اينكه امارات در مسابقه با ايران از ۷ بازيكن جوانانش استفاده مى كرد، گفت: در تهران اين تيم را به زور با يك گل شكست داديم و مقابل كره شمالى مساوى كرديم و برابر كره جنوبى در حالى كه قطبى ادعا مى كرد، اين تيم را مانند كف دستش مى شناسد، شانس آورديم كه بازى را واگذار نكرديم. افاضلى در مورد ادعاى قطبى مبنى بر اينكه مربيان ايرانى همين ۵ امتياز را هم نمى گرفتند، تصريح كرد: او راست مى گويد زيرا مربيان ايرانى ۶ امتياز مى گرفتند. اگر با دايى بوديم، كره شمالى را شكست مى داديم و اگر با كره جنوبى مساوى مى كرديم، به راحتى به جام جهانى مى رفتيم. وى افزود: از لحاظ آمارى ثابت مى كنم كه كار قطبى با اشكال مواجه بود. تيم قطبى نسبت به دايى از لحاظ آمارى ضعيف تر بود. اگر آمار فنى را بررسى كنيم، مجموع توليدات فنى تيم ملى در اين ۳ بازى از ۳ مسابقه اى كه دايى مربى تيم ملى بود، در مجموع پايين تر بود. كمك دايى در تيم ملى ادامه داد: قطبى به خوبى نظم و انضباط را در تيم ملى رعايت كرد. اين نظم و انضباطى كه قطبى از آن حرف مى زند، شايد در هاليوود باشد چرا كه در تيم ملى اين را مشاهده نكرديم. چه زمانى سابقه داشته كه ۱۰ بازيكن همزمان از تيم ملى جدا شوند؟ هر كس يك جايش را بهانه كرد و رفت. وى در مورد موافقت فدراسيون با برنامه هاى ۴ ساله قطبى، اظهار داشت: بسيار خوشحالم كه اين اتفاق مى افتد چرا كه تا ۴ سال مى توان راجع به برنامه او حرف زد و لذت برد. ممكن است قول قهرمانى جهان را هم بدهد. قطبى حقش ضايع شده كه ۳ بار اسكار سينماى جهان را نگرفته است. افاضلى با اشاره به اينكه ضمانت مى دهم در پايان برنامه ۴ ساله قطبى فوتبال ايران در حد بنگلادش باشد، گفت: تنها جايى كه بين ژيان و بنز با قيمت بنز، ژيان را انتخاب مى كنند، ايران است.

Any chance I can get a short translation of this article so I can join in with all this hoopla

[BehzadB]

Afazeli is right about one thing, Benz money for Jyaan..

Daie got 6 points in 5 WCQ games for 600 million
Ghotbi got 5 points in 3 WCQ games for 0 millions


If Afazeli really wants to know why we didn't make it to the WC, he should remember the last game he sat on TM bench..

the game with a 6 point swing.. we had 3 points in hand, lost all 3 points and gave all 3 points to the rival.. The first time ever Iran lost a game to Saudi Arabia in Azadi..

only if Afazeli's team could do in Tehran, what Ghotbi's team did in South Korea..

Benz Money for Jyaan , indeed..

[Ali Chicago]

Ali Agha , it is obvious that my Farsi will never be as good as yours , and I might have missed something significant in this article ..
So , what part of Human's comments you found disappointing ( I assume he was insulting someone !) ?

Majid khan;

Majid jaan, please tone down the sarcasm aziz. You farsi is as good if not better than mine. It might be ( I said might ) your perceived notion and admiration toward certain people who gets in the way.

I read his article in Persian papers (Iran Varzeshi), I think the title was "Be Ghaymat Zheeyan Benz Kharidan" in which he blatantly attacked Ghotbi. I haven't memorized the article, but there was direct attacks against Ghotbi by Mr. Afzali and in that article, he compared Ghotbi with Ali Daie. Now Ghotbi can be criticized but the style and tone Mr. Afzali used in my humble opinion wasn't appropriate. Specially considering that Mr. Daie and Afazali had a direct hand in the mess before Ghotbi coming to the helm.

As an example from whatever interview I read from Ghotbi (I didn't read many but from what I read) I didn't see a single example that he blames Daie or Afazali for the predicament he was in. He was man enough to accept the post and not *****ing about his predecessors. Mr. Afazali could have followed the same model in my opinion. But that is my opinion and nothing more.

Again, I am not here to defend Ghotbi, I haven't been following things much closely, I am merely talking about style here. As I said, befarama, Benshin va Betamarg has the same meaning.

[maij]

Majid Jaan.....
You are right...I may have lost a little composure..........
Mr.Ghotbi,is the head coach of the Iranian National team,we call TM...........
Is that true ?.....
if so, Mr.Afazelis statements regarding him not being qualified ,should be taken just as criticisms toward Mr.Daei were taken after equal among of time and chance,Mr.Daei& Mr.Afazeli were given !!!
Why Mr.Afazeli, does not say, we should give Mr.Ghotbi a fair chance ?
Why does he not appologize for his own failier ?
Why does n,t he say, The fault was not all Ali daei,s ,and he also made many mistakes ?
..................................................
No matter how we cut it Majid Jaan.....his case, is just another ,pointing fingures at every one but ourseleves !....which is very much Domestic system,Ghotbi is trying to avoid !,and teach a new culture in Iranian Football......
I will assure you, Ghotbi will not confront Mr .Afazeli..as his ststements are nothing new !........
Ghotbi,Aready thanked Daei for his work.....and Afazeli should find another way,to find himself a job !

Azizam , Baradar , Bahram Jan...the man is ENTITLED TO HIS OPINION , as much as you are ...there is NO REASON for you to insult him like that ...

Provide facts , proof , argument NOT humilitaion and insult !

Beside , in what Bible it says that "Iran needs a new culture in football " ? and that Ghotbi is the only one who is capable of accomplishing this cultural revolution ( the way he claimed that he is the only one that can beat South Korea and take Team Melli to South Africa)

Agha jan , when you lose focus on the issue and focus on defaming the people who differ with your opinion, you have lost the plot.

I am sorry Bahram Jan , but this is not right.