The upcoming IRAN - SAUDI game

[BehzadB]

1
generally they behave as if football is this humongously complex set of mathematical equeations that only a PhD can discus or dissect !!!!!!!!! so us, lesser mortals have to just "lay there & take whatever sh*t that's thrown in front of us" coz we havent played in europe or we arent the coach !!!!!

na peyman jan. it's not that.. It's just the fact that we as fans are not as close to the situation on the ground, to put it simply..

coaches (good, average or bad ones), they are close to the situation. they know the players better, they themselves have been coached in their playing times, and (hopefully) they have been trained (as in classroom) to be a coach. We have not.

so, again, we have to take everything with a little grain of salt and be a fan, or in your case, a very observant fan.

but as I said earlier, even the best coaches in the world make bad decisions. at the same time, it is also true that a fan may not have made that "bad" decision, if he were the coach. does that mean the fan is qualified to coach or is he ahead of the coach in his learning or knowledge? of course not.

as you said yourself, one standing on the outside might see something that the one on the inside doesn't.. that is certainly true.. however, the opposite is also true. in fact, more true than the first scenario. I think that sometimes, with the level of emotions and dedication that you put into this, you go way too far into details of certain situation.. and that's what I THINK, MR is referring to.

[Doctor DOOM]

1- DD's style is nothing like that.
DD starts with mentioning the problems he's noticed in a game and dissects them ( according to the way HE sees them ) and perhaps wonders why.

but DD's remarks are countered by this wall of "you're no coach so u wouldnt understand" & "daei knows better" as if he's omniscient or "played in europe" or .... etc etc etc.
generally they behave as if football is this humongously complex set of mathematical equeations that only a PhD can discus or dissect !!!!!!!!! so us, lesser mortals have to just "lay there & take whatever sh*t that's thrown in front of us" coz we havent played in europe or we arent the coach !!!!!

then DD wonders why the same ppl always come up with the same accusations no matter what the original issue.

and it escalates and ....

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2- secondly, DD came up with his "learning" remark as an answer to other snide remarks about coaching the team and whatnot.

and yet, using the term or not, it does NOT take away the fact that Mr. X insists on something that is wrong. nothing disastrous about it as everyone makes mistakes.
then Mr. X PERSISTS on it and digs his heel even more , INSPITE of game after game being shown how wrong the decision is.
( hence inviting criticism from some quarters )

so when after a long period of irrational persistence on a wrong idea, we see Mr. X finally turn around and correct his mistake, what do we say/think?


======================

3- I'm sure daei "knows" about width in a football team. ( God knows the guys has benefited the MOST from this width in his goal scoring career )

but my point has always been that he RARELY sees any use for it.
now, unlike many ppl I just dont throw out a sentence ( or accusation ) and hope that it sticks.
I BACK IT UP.

everytime I have talked about width, I have discussed what was seen, what was missing, what could have been done, who could help, whose style of football suits or doesnt, .... .


and yes, I still believe a team is MORE COMPLETE by adding Width.
if nothing else, it provides an additional dimension for its attacks and may make the team more successful in offense and scoring .... and god knows we havent been setting the wrold on fire with our offense or goal scoring

now, ppl have problem with this just becoz their idol is shown up and some guy talks about things that are missing in their idol's team.
how rude!
blasphemy!
fires of hell shall rain on u & ur children!!!




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and to answer our friend's query here:

I'd just like to know how DD can know something in specific Daei doesn't.

I'll have to say I WATCH our games. that's how.

I dont claim I know more than him. hell I dont claim I know more than YOU even.

but the difference between us is whatever lacks or missing ingredient I see in TM games, I bring it up.

even if the fires of hell may rain down on me and my descendants.

[Martin-Reza]

Amazingly noone gets what I say. The "defense" is only targeted at being allowed to critisize. As if that ever would be in question. Just DD's style is ridiculous.

Daei is slowly learning this and that is not a valid statement. Because when Daei is learning it, how could any of us know? As if we would have any football related knowledge he has not.

Yes, Daei is learning. But what he still has to learn is nothing we know. Cause if we knew, he'd know as well for sure.

"Width" is such a ridiculous example. Daei knows a million times more about width in a football team than DD will ever know. Yet the latter claims Daei has to learn sth in that department. He is also explaining what Daei has to learn.

I'd just like to know how DD can know something in specific Daei doesn't. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

[BehzadB]

we have to take everything with a little grain of salt..

I am sure DD is not claiming nor pretending to know more than the coach, nor is anyone else claiming that Daie can make no mistake.. bottom line is that coaches make their decisions based on opinions (theirs and their assistants), and of course, they too make mistakes in their evaluations..

so many times we have seen coaches that didn't think much of a certain player, only to see that player go on and have a great career (Deco for example)..

[Doctor DOOM]

With All due respect to my friend and wiser member here,martin Jaan......and sometimes majid e aziz.....
I just cann't subscribe to the notion that :
" We can not critisize Daei, because he knows football better than we do ".
..............
1- First, we have already seen him makeing many mistakes in other aspects, such as Media treatments, player relations, invitation techniques, public relations, etc,etc,etc.....
2-He is just 37 year old man !...... , ( assuming he knows all there is to know about football, which there are seriouse doubts there),!!, Coaching requires many other aspects, such Human relation, psycology, maturity,motivations, team work, poletics,etc,etc,etc.
3- So what els, we the fans are supposed to do ? ......just Cheer ?
4- Just , like presidency of any country, any coach of TM, is not neccessarly the most deserved person for the job.....and there are always better people around....
5-More than anything.....the evidense....the TM sub-par performances invites criticism.....and that is universal all over the world.
God Bless, and Mokhlese shoma.

according to a certain Mr. spear who shakes a lot : "more sensible words hath ne'er been uttered"

[zzgloo]

With All due respect to my friend and wiser member here,martin Jaan......and majid e aziz.....

I just cann't subscribe to the notion that :

" We can not critisize Daei, because he knows football better than we do ".

..............

1- First, we have already seen him makeing many mistakes in other aspects, such as Media treatments, player relations, invitation techniques, public relations, etc,etc,etc.....

2-He is just 37 year old man !...... , ( assuming he knows all there is to know about football, which there are seriouse doubts there),!!, Coaching requires many other aspects, such Human relation, psycology, maturity,motivations, team work, poletics,etc,etc,etc.

3- So what els, we the fans,are supposed to do ? ......just Cheer ?

4- Just , like presidency of any country, any coach of TM, is not neccessarly the most deserved person for the job.....and there are always better people around....

5-More than anything.....the evidense....the TM sub-par performances invites criticism.....and that is universal all over the world.

God Bless, and Mokhlese shoma.

[Doctor DOOM]

One more thing I forgot to add is this.

some ppl may be mistaking "criticism" with "hopelessness" ( as I've seen some comments about some of the critics ).
well let me make this important distinction.

if I am critical it is becoz I see there are solutions to the problem or at least ways to lessen the impact of these problems, and therefore I still have hope and acknowledge our potential and ability. a hope for correction.
If I didnt see this ability in us, I wouldnt have wasted my time and energy on something I think is impossible and hopeless.


that is very different from ppl who just say "oh we're horrible. we're bad. this is our maximum and we cant do better:.
now, THAT is hopeless.



now some may call this being negative.
but I say I'd rather be critical and negative but be PREPARED than be too positive and cheer yay and then get caught off guard.

as they say
Hope for the best, but PREPARE FOR THE WORST.

all the positivity, optimism, cheering and clapping WILL come when the job is done and we have qualified.
right now, we better be prepared for anything and that means discussing our shortcomings, and deficiencies.


just clarifying a small matter.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ repeat post which has already been answered somewhere in this very thread.
in fact a lot of these questions and accusations and ... have been addressed in this and other threads in F+ and I'm really tired of repeating myself to ppl who either forget, ignore or dont bother to read those posts.
stop flailing about.

maybe before saying all this, you shd visit some european football fan sites and read some of those posts to know this is normal in whole world

and you'll get modesty when attacks stop.

[Martin-Reza]

You have not found a single one ahead of Daei (just that there is a weakpoint doesn't mean the coach doesn't know about it), you have not found acceptable solutions (as before, finding a weakpoint is one thing, making an improvement is another) and even if you were right on sth, you most probably were for the wrong reasons ("Even a blind hen sometimes finds a grain of corn" is a German saying ).

The "too close" issue really is nothing but a cheap excuse. Being further away is not sufficient, without the necessary KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE, which you don't have.

Accept that. Critisize but KNOW WHO YOU ARE. The more you stick to critisicm of the output and the less you go into deep tactical analysis and judgement of someone a thousand times more qualified in any aspect in regards to football, the more serious your words can be taken by a serious reader.

There is no clearly defined border you're not allowed to cross, but you are so much over any possible border that a little less analysis and a little more modesty can't hurt.

[Doctor DOOM]

it is common knowledge that sometimes being TOO CLOSE to something, you may miss some matters that one from outside may notice.
or perhaps one's personal preferences may influence and deviate you from the logical path.


there have been plenty of such issues. not only for daei, but for all coaches.
and I'm sure many of them were corrected by daei, and some, many ppl have picked up.

I have found maybe 3-4 of them , and have discussed.

the thing is some of you guys dont like it if someone says this decision doesnt tally with logic or seems not to be working. and then you up the ante by bringing silly unnecessary remarks like "better in coaching" or whatnot.


if you go thru' ( and you certainly have ) my critical posts in the past year you'd see mostly been on daei's player selection. namely:
1- zareh at LB
2- sadeghi ( wherever he could shove him in )
3- playmaker's absence
4- "Width" in the team and players who provide this missing ingredient.

and smaller issues like overlook of haydari or bagheri's effect and cost on the team, or khalatbari's or shojaei's better use, or ... in other words, some peculiar selections that dont tally with logic and form of the players and seem like borne out of personal matters than the player's performances.

I have also brought up plenty ( according to some, way too much to read ) of reasoning behind my comments and have not resorted to naive "oh you're not a coach so shut it" retorts.
and there was only one way to find out whether those reasonings have been based on sound logic or not : if those actions deed occur. and in some of the cases above, HAVE happened to justify my comments.


now, you if want me to apologize for the childish words uttered by others?
I'm not going to do that.

====================

and I wish you wouldnt insult ppl who just happen to agree with me by saying they "FALL FOR MY TALK" !
I dont think anyone says the same about ppl who agree with you and say this about them.

could it , perhaps, be becoz they may see the issue from a different angle than you and daei ( coz you're pretty much aligned and not once have I seen you say anything contrary to daei's ) ?
are the "falling" or are they seeing another line of reasoning?

[Martin-Reza]

[BehzadB]

...that spot was occupied by mr Karim Bagheri. now seriously, do you and Martin think using Karim in that spot is smarter than using Khalatbari??? how can that really be justified??

I know Daei is years and decades and centuries ahead of me, but in hindsight, we should at least acknowledge that it was the incorrect choice and what Payman said (i.e., moving Khalatbari in karim bagheri's spot and maybe bringing in Ma'adanchi) may have been a better option?

I only played football for a little while in my life, and mostly watched the game and still, I , the little guy that I am, knew that his decision to bring bagheri to TM was a mistake.. like his decision NOT TO call Zandi is a mistake, oops, I suspect Politics with that one..

what I want to say is that coaches make MANY decisions based on subjective opinions.. I know that because I see their decisions and how they go back and change their mind about it, when in fact the player's form or status has not changed at all. (i.e Kia, Zandi, Teymourian..etc).

Daie made a decision to call Bagheri up, another coach might agree with him, and yet another one might laugh at that decision..

Subjective? I certainly think so.

[Doctor DOOM]

1- thank you faraz jan for the support. appreciate it.
especially since you spoke logically and with evidence.

2- our dear "agha khoobe" seems to think along the lines of "black or white. and no gray".
I could go on REPEATING that I dont say daei is a stupid man, but like all ppl does make some bad decisions ( something many ppl here cannot fathom !!! )
I could REPEAT I never said I'm a coach or ..... yada yada yada but if you ever bothered to read through all the posts in a thread, you'd have got ur answer.

and finally, your remarks on khalatbari shows exactly what is WRONG with some of us. we want to shove in as many "names" as possible into a possible 11 !
which is rather naive coz ( and I repeat ) it shd never be based on "names" but WHAT EACH POST REQUIRES. simple football basics.

and to answer you, YES, if daei, again puts khalatbari to the side, he IS DIMINISHING HIS POTENTIAL .
NOT TO MENTION REDUCING THE CAPABILITY OF THE LEFT WING ALSO, since that way he'll have to bench madanchi!!!
and we'll be back to our left wing UNDER-PERFORMING as seen in previous games.
you'd want that as long as "all the names" are there?


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so some of us have to understand sometimes our idols could be wrong.
and if it's a logical issue and is REPEATED enough on the field, then simple fans like me or X or Y CAN pick it up and bring it up as an argument.

issues such as those mentioned here: sadeghi's consistent underperformances, zareh's repeated failures at LB, and now, khalatbari's apparent mis-usage as well as our left wing's ( I'd even include the right wing too ).


the above issues have been what I've been persisting mostly & often enough. funny how each one has been proven right ON THE PITCH

as for me, I'm a simple football fan and have been wrong on many things.
but since our friends here attempted to be "too smart & sarcastic" , well one can be forgiven to bring up each of these issues where I have been proven right .


so if anyone here is under the mis-impression that someone has actually thought "he's better than the coach", they better ask these "little zippies" here who came up with this genius of a line . I'm sure they can provide ample reasoning why this has been brought up

[faraz]

We all know that most players (atleast the good ones) have the capability to play in several positions. what the coach does in to arrange the players such that he gets the maximum out of the TEAM. Now if we have the middle occupied by a good player, then why not use Khalatbari on the left if he can serve the TEAM better than any other player on the roster.

...that spot was occupied by mr Karim Bagheri. now seriously, do you and Martin think using Karim in that spot is smarter than using Khalatbari??? how can that really be justified??

I know Daei is years and decades and centuries ahead of me, but in hindsight, we should at least acknowledge that it was the incorrect choice and what Payman said (i.e., moving Khalatbari in karim bagheri's spot and maybe bringing in Ma'adanchi) may have been a better option?

Daei is not the first one to do that. Remeber when Karimi was in bayern? he was pushed to the right side just because Ballak was playing in the middle, and when ballak was not playing, then Karimi played in the middle (I remeber 1 game where he did play in the middle). There are many examples like this, just look it up.

True, and yes. I do agree - the shuffling of players in class teams like that is common. But it doesn't make it right 100% of the time.

One more thing,
comes KSA game, most probably we will see Kia on the right, Shojaei in the middle and Khalatbari on the left. Does this mean, that Daei learned his lesson in the Kuwait game but he will forget it for the KSA game? or is it because these players combined are head and shoulder above the rest when used in this arrangement.

actually, I'll applaud Daei if either Shojaei or Khalatbari play in the middle. I do not mind seeing one on the wing and one in the middle - as long as ONE acts as a true playmaker (something we really haven't had in the last little while...).

[Martin-Reza]

Mr. Good is absolutely right. And beside that, there is nothing wrong about claiming Daei is still learning (besides, every coach is doing so probably all the time), but if someone without any pro football and pro coaching experience steps up and claims to be some steps ahead of the coach and being happy Daei is learning and catching up to him in some regard (eg. playing Khalatbari in center), this can only be considered ridiculous.

Amazingly, instead this even earns applouse by some.

To make the point clear. Daei is learning, but what he's learning already is far beyond what we will ever know. He surely is not learning anything we already know.