"personal feelings" still rule at TM !!!

[yashar_fasihnia]

you see. when you compare ( even relatively so ) villa, torres ... to sadeghi, your whole argument is lost .

we both know sedeghi is not the corresponding torres or villa of IPL.

...... dont we ?

I'll let you try again and come up with a valid comparison.

i already did but u seemed to ignore it.
so, again i repeat my question and this time, i let u try again amd come up with a valid answer:

can u say that spain would be 100% maximum potential if raul was chosen instead of dani guiza??
or can u say that spain would be 100% maximum potential the way it was in euro (leave out raul and play guiza or watever his name was) and actually won the cup in the absence of raul?

how can one decide???

raul vs guiza incase u still dont get my question

[Doctor DOOM]

you see. when you compare ( even relatively so ) villa, torres ... to sadeghi, your whole argument is lost .

we both know sedeghi is not the corresponding torres or villa of IPL.

...... dont we ?

I'll let you try again and come up with a valid comparison.

[yashar_fasihnia]

daer yashar, it's quite simple.

when you have a player ( A ) whose BEST is on par with an average performance of another player ( B ) and you see A is chosen over B, obviously the team wouldnt be at its best levels.

now, some may say player B is controversial like ... oh , I dont know .... like azizi, niki, ... and the like and it's that extra aspect and dimension that weighs in. and that may be right.
but I'd like to hear what kind of things ppl may level against MAHDAVIKIA in terms of misbehavior or controversial character.

until then, you'd find it very hard to convince ppl why TM's right side is at 100% potential with absence of kia, kazemian, .... while sadeghi appears in the line up.

remember, hard as some may try, they lose the focus in their zeal by focusing on the PERSON and losing the focus on the TEAM.

i think aragones picking torres, villa and guiza over raul showed to the whole world wat im talking about.

wat guarantee is there that raul with all those years of experience and superior qualities and playing in the best club of the world with the record of most goals in european champions league would have scored those goals villa, torres or guiza scored and helped make spain champions?

can u say that spain would be 100% maximum potential if raul was chosen instead of dani guiza??
or can u say that spain would be 100% maximum potential the way it was in euro (leave out raul and play guiza or watever his name was) and actually won the cup in the absence of raul?

how can one decide?

[maij]

I know that very well. There is no vested interest or relationship to protect one player or another. But when it comes to judgment on those players, the issue can be summarized in two simple points:

1- It is YOUR personal view that those two players are horrible, and perhaps shared by some others, it is not the coach's. While I don't think either of them are great, I disagree with your analysis of them.

2- So , the coach hypothetically picked up two horrible players , what is the point of hammering it to death in every other post of yours? Is the team affairs is all about the selection of these two players ? Is the future and prospect of Team Melli is about these two players ?


[/quote]


I think Daei deserves much more credit than that.

[Doctor DOOM]

according to human, apparently the reason kia was dropped is that he is not FIXED in his team .

but here's the absolute-kick-you-in-the-nuts double standard:
are we to believe ALL TM players are STARTERS in their clubs ?
really ?

I dare anyone to prove all the TM players invited are STARTERS in their clubs.

ALL of them ????
what about ando ?
is he dropped too ?
what about ahmadi ?
is he dropped too ?
and ..... etc.



===================

apart from that. I wonder what daei thinks when he says that, especially when he, himself was on the bench of bayern and hertha !

for all the respect I had for daei, when these days I see such double standards practiced, I'm increasingly forced to review my opinions and loyalties.

[Doctor DOOM]

daer yashar, it's quite simple.

when you have a player ( A ) whose BEST is on par with an average performance of another player ( B ) and you see A is chosen over B, obviously the team wouldnt be at its best levels.

now, some may say player B is controversial like ... oh , I dont know .... like azizi, niki, ... and the like and it's that extra aspect and dimension that weighs in. and that may be right.
but I'd like to hear what kind of things ppl may level against MAHDAVIKIA in terms of misbehavior or controversial character.

until then, you'd find it very hard to convince ppl why TM's right side is at 100% potential with absence of kia, kazemian, .... while sadeghi appears in the line up.

remember, hard as some may try, they lose the focus in their zeal by focusing on the PERSON and losing the focus on the TEAM.

[BehzadB]

Daie, ghotbi, GN, MK, Dr. Z, firouz karimi, mazloumi.. etc etc..

they are all human beings, with ideas, feelings , faults and greeds of their own..

my question to agha Majeed is that even though I fully agree with all that you said in your last post (and I mean it), picking and choosing WHICH "orchestrated and systematical critiques" you are concerned with, makes it seem like you are OK with the "orchestrated and systematical critiques" as long as it's not against Daie...

I don't remember much of your opposition or concern with the "orchestrated and systematical critiques", when certain members where opening up threads left and right on this very site to bash the coach of TM with the most unbelievable ARAJEEF, for months on, leading to AFC games.. And then the same with Ghotbi..

just not Daie..

Your concerns, "orchestrated and systematical critiques", are certainly valid. I don't like it either when our people beat it to death with everything.. be it in bashing or in adoring...

I hope you did have a good rest.

[yashar_fasihnia]

-some may also give the benefit of the doubt to the coach and humbly accept the fact that the coach is in a better position to make the best decisions because of a million and one reasons and advantages he has over a fan sitting behind his computer screen.
-some on the other hand dont accept any decision, any view point or any taste other than their own.

-some may think that only their way and their taste/viewpoint means BEST TM WITH MAXIMUM POTENTIAL. (without knowing much about the inside details of the camp, team, players) and anyone who disagrees with him doesnt want the best of TM and will be satisfied with 80% performance or so..!!
-some on the other hand have accepted the fact football is too subjective for anyone to decide how to grade TM's performance and wat can be called 100% MAXIMUM POTENTIAL!

[Doctor DOOM]

Majid jan, I don’t know if you were referring to me or someone else, but lets just see what the matter is.

First of all, I hope you know me and those who criticize inclusion of sadeghi or zareh ( to the point that they are guaranteed to be in the final lists every damned time ) don’t have any “pedar ***htegi” with those two. Neither are kia or mobaali or kazemian or … my “pesar ammeh” for them to be my personal “cause”.
Having ridden us of that bit, all that’s left is our intense passion for TM and wanting the very best for it.

Some will adopt a stance that accept all the coach does ( whoever he may be. Unknown or famous , doesn’t matter ) and a few take it even further to behave as if every word or act of the coach is an unbroken edict never to be questioned or doubted.
Some will adopt a different tact which involves some questioning of acts or decisions that according to them, doesn’t seem to lead to the OPTIMAL TM potential.

Who’s wrong?
Maybe neither.

But no one … absolutely not a soul can question the underlying intent of ppl like me, which is to have the STRONGEST TM at its HIGHEST & MAXIMUM POTENTIAL. Nothing less would do.
For some, maybe a little less might do.
For some , as long as the coach is not questioned, a TM at 80% might just do.
For some as long as their favorite player plays , even if TM is at 80% , it might just do.
For some … .
As they say; to each his own.

To ME, a guy like sadeghi, at his best form ( which he isn’t in, nowadays anyway ) would never measure up to a mediocre mahdavikia. Not by a long shot.
So don’t be puzzled or amused or offended if I question daei’s decision to forego a far superior player in favor of another.
And btw, his constant wholesale call ups of saipa players ( some at pretty average levels ) is starting to stink to high heaven. Some will acknowledge it . some will close their eyes.
To each, his own.


You gotta admit the reasons for many of these decisions , also, aren’t easily digestible either. And there are quite a few such things that force ppl to start questioning their TM coach.

-----------------------

just to be fair, I’ll add and praise Daei for something that I agree with; his decision not to release any of the players until the ksa game.
I back this decision fully as this will benefit the coordination of the team.

[maij]

OK....Ali Jan , somehow again , the post was "Lost in Translation"

You keep reminding me about USA , but the fact is that Iran is not USA and our culture is NOT the western culture. In the US gay marriages is legal , in Iran they hang people for that! I don't need to go into political or social discussion about it , it has nothing to do with football , it is about cultural differences though.


I have said , and will say that you are entitled to your criticism and I am entitled to challenge the ones that I see inappropriate. Isn't that a fair game ?

Do you want the negatives , or call it criticism to prevail without challenge? In that case the concept of freedom of speech that you are demanding is lost because you don't allow the other party to express his own views about the criticism. Every person is entitled for defense even the murders , why do you want to deprive it from some people who do not even have chance to defend themselves?

To make it absolutely clear, it is this orchestrated and systematical critiques that is a concern to me , not the fact that Daei is doing something wrong here or there.

Slander : No I am not an expert in law , but this is what Webster Dictionary defines it. Compare it to what is said in this forum against Daei , Sadeghi and Zare

1.defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander. 2.a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name. 3.Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc. –verb (used with object) 4.to utter slander against; defame. –verb (used without object) 5.to utter or circulate slander.
Make your own judgment.


You don't get offended if I say Daei is great , is your own choice and basic right , but Ali Agha , people are different in their tolerance level and what they find acceptable or not.

As an example , after the revolution I was hyper critical of the leaders there and a split in my own family existed. I curtailed my sharp tongues against the regime , in respect for those people who supported them. It is called respect for the people whom I associate with and members of my family, despite my own belief that they are supporting the wrong side.


You keep bringing up Ghotbi and Ghalnoei. I have said it hundreds of times that I have respect for their achievements and their work, I DID not say I worship them. Neither do I have any hatred for them.

Sorry ..It is getting a bit late and the fingers is not steady in typing...Will continue tomorrow...pleasant dreams.

[Ali Chicago]

This is an example of what u posted in the other thread.

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1083050&postcount=53

Which is a copy of a negative post of the same Newspapers that you were criticizing before about ghotbi. Really unprofessional use of journalisem note use of "former Emperror" IMO. But you posted this and quite a few other negative posts about Ghotbi in particular. Did you ever see, I call you on this? Why don't you extend the same favor back?

Did anyone come and said you are negative? You aren't insulting him or anthing, just expresssing your opinion.

Please let's as the farsi saying goes "yek soozan be khoodemoon bezanim, yek jawaldooz be hamsayeh".

[Ali Chicago]

Ali Agha Jan

Of course it is our right to criticize X, Y and Z within the boundary of reasons and decency. I don’t need to remind you that you can always challenge my remarks if you wish or ignore it otherwise. Please allow me to take that option as well.
But some of remarks here merit sarcasm as you put it. Else what is the response?

What is the response if one systematically attacks Sadeghi and Zare to a degree that is exceeding slander, insult and decency?

What is the response when one claims “That he is doing his own thing?” Isn’t it obvious that coaches do their own thing , where is Daei fault and why should he be an exception ?

Seriously, now…you are an intelligent man…what do you think the coach should do? Pick the players that HE thinks is no good for him or his plan, or run a popularity poll to select his squad? Which coach in the world goes and reads newspapers or search the cyberspace before picking his squad?

If one consistently bashes and hammers Daei , question his motives, find conspiracy in whatever he does , selectively read the newspaper cutting and start verbal assaults, even start hating Saipa club , ( [I]and God knows he might find that all of Ardabil’s are traitors[/I]) then I find such attitude as unacceptable and when this comes from senior members (regardless to motives ) then it is setting a dangerous precedent possibly leading to mind poisoning the younger members and turning this very respectable forum into a platform for personal attacks against our Team Melli coach.

We don’t need that, Gentlemen.

And don’t even dare to call it censorship or anything of that kind, because it is NOT trying to cap anyone’s thought. I am talking about reason and common courtesy and a bit of respect for the professionals who are trying their utmost best to bring glory to this nation , alas not perfectly.

It is not even about loving or admiring Daei. I think you all know by now what is the bigger picture. You want to make a difference, then focus on real issues that mars Iran’s football. Criticize Daei and bigger than Daei when such criticism is merited, but when it becomes concentrated , systematical , orchestrated the way some of you portray it , then even me , with my familiarity and association of your posts, will think it is perhaps more personal hatred rather than the interest of Team Melli.

If you want to make a difference, then elevate your remarks above those of the controversial tabloid journalism of Iran rather than sleeping in the same bed with them.

Thank you for your consideration.

There is a differece between challenging and attacking. I don't know about your background in law, I am an engineer so I am in a shaky ground in law, but I think you use strong words like slander very liberally. There is a huge difference between slander and criticizing. Agha Majid, please go and read Ace or football magazines in England or Italy, what do you think they write? Praise the NT head coach all the time? See the difference of opinion between Beckenbaur and Kliensman as the head coach of Bayern. This difference of opinions is very normal, why are we so scared of this. As long as no one insults anyone. Which in this case not a single person insulted Daie in F+.

As long as football has been played, fans have argued for or against the players, formation, coaches. It is a very normal part of the game. As long as no one is insulting, which in F+ threads no one does. Heck there is such an atmosphere that if one wants to critcize a decision has to think twice before posting it, or else buy the threat of being labled this and that.

I assume your comment about consulting online threads was another sarcastic remarks. No one claims that. Anyone as a fan, has a right to express himself. Daie is teh one who makes the decision. He has all the tools. He with his actions can prove us wrong. Why are you so protective of him?


You know agha majid, it is the most dangerous thing, when silencing the other side is being justified under the big words or benefit of the all, criticality of the moment, etc. etc. While on this topic, Who said all the Ardebiliies are Traitors? I myself over and over in PFDC, request people stop calling our Arab neighbors in a demeaning ways. Far from me to call my Ardabili compatriots "traitors"?

If some kids write something in PFDC, it has nothing to do with F+ members.

To constantly attack and ridicules the minority as long as he/she isn't' insulting anyone is censorship. It walks like a duck, it acts like a duck,it must be a duck.

If you choose to consider criticisms of Daie's decision (without insulting him), being negative, unpatriotic, or whatever else that is your prerogative.

I wish you lived in US and see that in the US, people in the TV shows criticize Mr. Bush during the war, heck they even sued the US government (by Cyrus Vans former secretary of state of US during Carter era, not some odd ball lefty) and it was totally OK. No one called them unpatriotic, negative blah blah. I guess with your standards something like that would be treason during the war. Something IRI did to the critics of the continuation of war after liberation of Khoramshahr.

Guess our starting points are different. Starting point in this case is freedoom of speech and individualisem. In West, it is very acceptable to criticize without being labeled. Maybe in your view, it is negativity or whatever, but if you try to silence that so called "negative voice" it is called censorship (as long as no one insults or slander) which I never did, neither did anyone in F+.

In certain countries, under the name of national interests, religion, etc., it is very acceptable to silence the minority views.

This is football and in big picture it really doesn't matter, however it is very educational for me to see the level of tolerance.

I don't really understand, why I don't get offended when you say Daie has done great or whatever or criticize Ghotbi or GN's comment. To me it is your god given right. I dont' agree with you and express myself, but not label you negative or whatever. Why don't you extend the same favor to few black sheeps!!!! like me?

[maij]

Agha majid, with all the due respect, you have your opinion, so do I. There is no need for sarcasem. But since we are in sarcastic mode of operation, I dont' know really where he needs to call, maybe Imame Zaman to come up with miracles like he comes up with. He must have called somewhere to came up with amazing moves like inviting players like Parvin and Gholmanezhad who aren't a starter in their own team, but somehow are good enough for the TM!!! Hmmm, I don't know then how to judge the player that starts instead of Mohamad Parvin in Saipa.!!!!

On a more serious note, He doesn't need to call anyone, he just needs to get off his high horse and old accounts and think why on Earth a player like Sadeghi starts in TM or a not fully fit midfielder like Zandi starts that doesn't participate in the defense, but a player like Kia doesn't fit within his tactics, or somehow Karimi's game can't be seen by him.


You are criticial of Ghotbi, GN, X or Y. It is your right, I don't try to question every post of yours regarding them, do I? What is good for the Geese must be good for the Gander!!!! Right?

Ali Agha Jan

HE thinks is no good for him or his plan, or run a popularity poll to select his squad? Which coach in the world goes and reads newspapers or search the cyberspace before picking his squad?

If one consistently bashes and hammers Daei , question his motives, find conspiracy in whatever he does , selectively read the newspaper cutting and start verbal assaults, even start hating Saipa club , ( ) then I find such attitude as unacceptable and when this comes from senior members (regardless to motives NOT

[Ali Chicago]

So what do you suggest Daei should do , since the guy does what he pleases?

Whom should he call, consult or get advice from whenever he decides on anything ?

Agha majid, with all the due respect, you have your opinion, so do I. There is no need for sarcasem. But since we are in sarcastic mode of operation, I dont' know really where he needs to call, maybe Imame Zaman to come up with miracles like he comes up with. He must have called somewhere to came up with amazing moves like inviting players like Parvin and Gholmanezhad who aren't a starter in their own team, but somehow are good enough for the TM!!! Hmmm, I don't know then how to judge the player that starts instead of Mohamad Parvin in Saipa.!!!!

On a more serious note, He doesn't need to call anyone, he just needs to get off his high horse and old accounts and think why on Earth a player like Sadeghi starts in TM or a not fully fit midfielder like Zandi starts that doesn't participate in the defense, but a player like Kia doesn't fit within his tactics, or somehow Karimi's game can't be seen by him.


You are criticial of Ghotbi, GN, X or Y. It is your right, I don't try to question every post of yours regarding them, do I? What is good for the Geese must be good for the Gander!!!! Right?

[maij]

What is the point Payman Jaan. It becomes redundant after a while. The guy does as he pleases. Guess all we can do is wait and pray we do well.

So what do you suggest Daei should do , since the guy does what he pleases?

Whom should he call, consult or get advice from whenever he decides on anything ?