"personal feelings" still rule at TM !!!

[maij]

[Ali Chicago]

i already did but u seemed to ignore it.
so, again i repeat my question and this time, i let u try again amd come up with a valid answer:



raul vs guiza incase u still dont get my question

OK I like to get an attempt. We are talking about picking Torres with 30 something goal in EPL vs. Raul. How many goals Raul scored in La Liga? Guiza was the top scorer in La Liga if I am not mistaken right. Plus before Guiza get injured, Torres was subbed in every game. Actually he did get subbed even in the final. As a side note compare that to players in our team that regardless of their performance (Zandi/Sadeghi/Ando) start each game (back to the topic).
So it wasn't like choosing a player who isn't starting in EPL vs. a player who is playing at a lower level league. EPL is best league in the world, and Liverpool is one of the best teams in the world. So the selection was between the best and much better in this case.

Plus it was for only 2-3 players. Not a whole bunch. People aren't just brainless. Other coaches and football criticis all praised Torres as a valuable and goal getter. So while it is true that coach has the final decision and it is his choice, it isn't like Aragunes can go and pick an average player instead of both Torres or Raul and says, oh well that is my opinion.

Plus when Aragones picked Torress, people, fans did criticize him. It doesn't mean people need to be bombarded with lables as negative and this and that, if they criticize aragones for not picking Raul? Can you say for sure, had the Aragones picked Raul, Spain wouldnt' have won Euro 2008? Coaches are given the right to choose players and no one can get the right away from them. Please dont' try to take the right to judge, discuss, or even criticize player selection with a lable "coach knows better". If that is the case, let's close ACE and all the football magazines and praise and kiss the feet of the soccer coaches then. How many soccer coaches get fired each month, that by itself shows that even the best soccer coach, at times can be wrong with his decisions. So please stop using (in a wrong way) the argument of coach knows best. Coach knows better than you and I for sure. But he still can be wrong. Even if he is not wrong, You, I, X or Y as fans have the right to evaluate, discuss or criticize his decisions. What is wrogn with that?

[Ali Chicago]

Too bad that we need to communicate in English, but try to share my points and keeping in short. Without Khayeh Malee (excuse the language but I use it on purpose to show my seriousness), I really respect you despite all the difference we have. If I am insisting on this, is because I believe people like you who (unfortunately there aren't many in Iran), are an asset and I hope in their own thinking come to a different conclusion and point of view when it comes to tolerance.

This issue of Tolerance is such an important issue for our country.Even for its survival as an independent and integral country next 30-40 years. I am referring to the tolerance of religious and national minorities within the borders of Iran. I hope you see the relevance.

OK....Ali Jan , somehow again , the post was "Lost in Translation"

You keep reminding me about USA , but the fact is that Iran is not USA and our culture is NOT the western culture. In the US gay marriages is legal , in Iran they hang people for that! I don't need to go into political or social discussion about it , it has nothing to do with football , it is about cultural differences though.
.

Majid Jaan, Einstein has a famous sentence that says, the problems can't be solved in the same plane that they were created or something like that.
If we Iranian don't change the way we do things and change our standards, it will be the same Ash and same Kaseh.
We can keep saying this isn't' our culture or whatever, but either we choose to get on with the rest of the world and respect individual rights and stop suppressing individualism or we keep falling behind more.

I have said , and will say that you are entitled to your criticism and I am entitled to challenge the ones that I see inappropriate. Isn't that a fair game ?

Do you want the negatives , or call it criticism to prevail without challenge? In that case the concept of freedom of speech that you are demanding is lost because you don't allow the other party to express his own views about the criticism. Every person is entitled for defense even the murders , why do you want to deprive it from some people who do not even have chance to defend themselves?

.

Majid Jaan, when did I say dint' challenge, I say dint' use sarcasm. Please don't' think I have a pedar ***hteghi with Daie, or Payman or X or Y has an agenda. We have our opinion, you may don't' agree, but don't' come and ridicule and say Daie has to consult on line source for the team selection.

I am not saying ba panbeh sar beboor and just use nice words. I am asking for a different paradigm. Truly believe and "TOLERATE", X or Y's opinion even if you believe it is wrong.

Challenge it, but don't' condemn it, don't' be sarcastic. It is not just a niceties and hospitality issue majid jaan. It is much more than this. It is the fact that we all know only part of the truth and the other person may have a point, that you may not be able to see due to different reasons. It again comes to the magic word "TOLERANCE".

To make it absolutely clear, it is this orchestrated and systematical critiques that is a concern to me , not the fact that Daei is doing something wrong here or there.

Majid Jaan, khahesh meekonam, what "orchestrated and systematical critiques ". What systematic issue Payman or I or X or Y can have? We are just bunch of fans chatting here and expressing our opinions (for what it worth). This "orchestrated and systematical critiques" really worries me. It remind me of the Savak and Savama in IR that they see a conspiracy behind everything. It is very normal, that every coach has ambitions, greed, etc. etc. So some of their criticisms of Daie can be motivated by other reasons. But it is quite normal. Daie doesn't have the same issues. Even you and I don't have the same issues?

Slander : No I am not an expert in law , but this is what Webster Dictionary defines it. Compare it to what is said in this forum against Daei , Sadeghi and Zare

1.defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander. 2.a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name. 3.Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc. –verb (used with object) 4.to utter slander against; defame. –verb (used without object) 5.to utter or circulate slander.
Make your own judgment.

How can one defame or slander Daie if he/she says his selection isn't right. Defamation or slander is if I come and say, Daie got money, if he selected Sadeghi. I can say in US, I hate ipod,and it is my right. I don't' have the right to go and say ipod is faulty and blows up after working 5 hours (unless I can prove it). Hating or liking ipod is a personal opinion. Defamation or slander isn't extended to the area of personal opinions. Plus please show me from the F+ threads where anybody slandered Daie for the selection of Sadeghi or Zandi or Zareh?

You don't get offended if I say Daei is great , is your own choice and basic right , but Ali Agha , people are different in their tolerance level and what they find acceptable or not.

Of course it is your right. But Majid jaan, there is an external reality besides what you and I like. There is an standard norm in the civilized world for tolerance, I simply request for a member of your caliber to consider extending and increasing your level of TOLERANCE.

As an example , after the revolution I was hyper critical of the leaders there and a split in my own family existed. I curtailed my sharp tongues against the regime , in respect for those people who supported them. It is called respect for the people whom I associate with and members of my family, despite my own belief that they are supporting the wrong side.

No disrespect to you or your family, but in general the same fascist like style of thinking and lack of respect to the human rights and individualism led us to the disaster of Islamic Republic that we see today. How sad and Ironic that People in Iran, say Shah regime was better, because it never killed as many as Mullahs did. Do you see the Irony. Our poor people have to choose between the lesser of two murderers.

You keep bringing up Ghotbi and Ghalnoei. I have said it hundreds of times that I have respect for their achievements and their work, I DID not say I worship them. Neither do I have any hatred for them.

Sorry ..It is getting a bit late and the fingers is not steady in typing...Will continue tomorrow...pleasant dreams.

Majid in all honesty can you say, I worship or even less blindly GN or Ghotbi? See the SS thread and my post criticizing GN for Alizadeh issue. I can be wrong about Alizadeh and GN is right, but the whole worship thing is definitely nothing that fits Payman or I for that matter.

I again request you to compare how I respond to your posts about Ghotbi for example Do I blame you for being negative. Do I use Sarcasm when I reply to your post about Ghotbi. Do I believe you are part of "orchestrated and systematical critiques" against Ghotbi? I earlier posted two of your posts about Ghotbi in this thread for your reference. Hell I even don't' say anything to Ala as an official hate monger against PP, Ghotbi, SS , etc. etc.

Hope you had a good rest.

[Ali Chicago]

-

...-some on the other hand have accepted the fact football is too subjective for anyone to decide how to grade TM's performance and wat can be called 100% MAXIMUM POTENTIAL!

I am glad you posted this. I like to stipulate on this. Football is subjective and so is player selection but Performance evaluation isn't. At the end of the game or tournament there is a final score and people in general ( a big majority) judge the team's performance (played well but lost by an accident for example).

Everyone here accepts that it final decision of Mr. Daie that matters. I can type till I get blue and it wont' matter. What I don't understand why is there an insistence of forcing people to dont' evaluate, criticize, support, or whatever head coache's decision. Why are we so sensetive if Payman doesn't like Zare or Sadeghi and trying to force him to join the rest of the choros?


You, Majid or wheover else come and post 10 posts about how great/Average or whatever Daie's work in the TM has been, that is fair. But coming and saying Payman, Ali, this or that is negative is unfair.

If you dont' want the socalled negatives to express themselves too much, be pro active. Come and post in favor or Mr. Daie's decision. Explain to us why nto including Kia is the right thing to do and has nothing to do with the events of WC2006.

Do you see my point? It is called positive competition vs. negative competition, censorphip, or forcing people to self censor.

I respectfully beg, whoever thinks Daie is doign great, average whatever, come and post yourslef. Open a thread. Dont' just wait, someone post soemthing and you come and say, "your post is negative and my pathriothic duty (see Siavashes post in the main forum) to so called "challenge" your post.

In the west, there are magazines like NewYorker and then there is weekly standard (Two opposing view points). NewYorker doesn't tell Weekly standard, why you criticize this or that or you are negative, it goes and prints its own articles. This is called positive competition, vs. Weekly standard try to limit, or worst even close NewYorker or vice versa. I as a consumer have the right to choose which one I want to read. Same analogy applies to the PFDC I beleive. Let the differing or even opposing view points expressed without one side attacking or labeling the other side, this and that, use sarcasem and let the PFDC members and events in our football shows which view was closer (notice I said closer) to the truth. I dont' think anyone can be totally right. At best we can get close to truth (kind of like the limit in the mathematical functions, can get close to it, but never to it, dang now I showed what a geek I am with that example!! ).

[The-Red]

Well aghayoon, no matter what is said or how much he is criticized or defended, it's his time now and he will rule and pursue his own agenda no matter what everyone else says...constructive criticism doesn't mean anything and the few who fully and unconditionally support him will defend him at any cost and no matter what he does or say, as it has been the case in the past few years. He has the right to do/say anything....My point is, there's not much of a point to discuss this at the moment...Daie's era will also come to an end just like Parvin's, Branko's and the rest...The history will judge him and for the sake of TM, I hope it will be a positive one, but form the way things are at the moment, I am afraid we might have a man going from a "hero" to a "zero"...I ask those who support Daie unconditionally why shouldn't he be respected as much as Ghelichkhani, Abedzadeh, Kia, or other legends of our football who are simply loved by all Iranian football fans…why should he be insulted so much in stadiums around the country?

[maij]

^^ 'defender of human race' az koja oomda ??

.

Yaani ..gharar nist ke az hame defaa konam

[maij]

Peyman jan...I see the same endless circle cropping up time after time on these discussions.

I am not the coach to defend his selections , and I am not a mind reader to know what is in Daei's mind , and I am not much of a speculator either.

Daei is the coach and he knows best what is good for his team. He gambles or he takes risks , he is accountable. At the end his success is measured on the team making it to South Africa or not , not on Zare or Sadeghi.

In short , I know my limitation.

[BehzadB]

^^ 'defender of human race' az koja oomda ??

I understand what you are saying. you have the right to chose whom you chose to defend and whom you don't.. and therefore as you have expressed your opinion on the subject matter of ("orchestrated and systematical critiques"), I have expressed mine..

just wanted to make sure we are both clear about it.

[maij]

Agha majeed,

my comment wasn't about your opinion on Ghotbi, or GN or Daie, or your friendship with them... My comment was about your concern with the "orchestrated and systematical critiques" that goes on, on these boards..

If you tolerate "orchestrated and systematical critiques" against one TM coach (i.e GN), but you complain about it when it's against another TM coach (i.e Daie), then that's double standard... either we have to be against "orchestrated and systematical critiques" or tolerate it. regardless of against whom it's being done.

The answer

To start with I am not supposed to be the defender of the human race or anyone that is under criticism. You guys had the same forum and same ability to defend whoever it was under attack, why wait for me? And >>>> please allow me the liberty of expressing my own opinion the way and the time I feel comfortable with, NOT because someone is leading me to do so.

[BehzadB]

Agha majeed,

my comment wasn't about your opinion on Ghotbi, or GN or Daie, or your friendship with them... My comment was about your concern with the "orchestrated and systematical critiques" that goes on, on these boards..

If you tolerate "orchestrated and systematical critiques" against one TM coach (i.e GN), but you complain about it when it's against another TM coach (i.e Daie), then that's double standard... either we have to be against "orchestrated and systematical critiques" or tolerate it. regardless of against whom it's being done.

[Doctor DOOM]

and majid jan, exactly "what" is my portrayal of these things?

is it "my portrayal" of sadeghi phasing in and out of the game and disappearing from the plot for 20-25 minutes ?
is it "my portrayal" of saipa when I say they ranked 11th in our 18 team league?
is it "my portrayal" of this lowly ranked team suddenly having t2-3 times the number of players that far stronger teams in the league have at TM ?


or is it "my portrayal" of zareh's repeated turn-overs and misses and failure to defend or intercept or block or ... ?
is it "my portrayal" of other LB's in the league that have far better stats than the "chosen one" ?



trust me, even if jabbari ( who is one of my favorite players ) kept on under-performing and failing, I would say the same things. but the fact is among all those who have been getting decent playtime under daei, only these 2 are consistently under-performing and not living to the standard that an INTERNATIONAL TEAM ought to have.
for club games? I'm least bothered. let them be fixed in whatever club they are in. couldnt care less.


so exactly what do you mean by "the way we portray things" ?


====================

trivial is having 2-3 differences of opinion in a 23 man roster.
vital is when the same 2-3 inferior players get to be fixed in the starting 11, no matter how badly they perform each game.


=====================

heh.
the point of bayatinia and shuster was to say just becoz the coach feels comfortable with X, it shd not mean X shd be in an int'l team. technical abilities shd rank far higher than that.
ok. bayatinya is too much of a shock.
lets say codina, who is a sub at madrid.

=======================


yes, my bone with daei IS his player selection, my friend.

it used to be 2 issues. that, and the way we ignored the importance of free kicks.
but since I saw there have been efforts to come up with plans for the set pieces, I have stopped mentioning it.

I havent criticized daei for anything else.
I havent said a word about why the team doesnt play a fluid game or doesnt have teamwork or ... becoz I know that would have been unfair.

so, yes. my only bone of contention is his selection which I see his personal feelings have been involved with a lot of them. with double standards and such.
that's all.

otherwise, I'm not against him being the head coach of TM.
I'm just surprised at the NEW FACETS of his character coming to the fore after he became the coach. facets that werent there while he was a player.... when he deserved the tag of "legend".

[maij]

Majid joon, you know as well as anyone else that this is not about having two inferior players in a roster of 23.
You know nobody would expect a perfect list which is agreed upon by one and all.
It’s not about such trivial things.

But when these two , while enjoying a free passage to diff TM camps, eventually end up in the starting line ups when there are far more deserving and superior performing players sitting on the bench or not even called up.

--------------------------------

If "It’s not about such trivial things" Peyman jan , why keep bringing up the same issue over and over again ??

And the so called “hammering” comes when one sees a resolute reluctance on the part of the coach to try alternatives or some other players on the outside.
Proof is if you noticed during WAFF hardly anyone mentioned the lajbaazi or stubbornness to try players for LB. But even that comes with a side-bar. We fear when the KSA game day arrives, the same old inferior ( porous ) player will be chosen above those “tried”.
We also cant deny the “eye wash” token call ups of other players to quiet fans and media, just to be struck off before each game.

Majid jan, the hammering comes when we see hypocrisy and double standards used to promote personal agendas. Care to explain how daei rules out kia on grounds of being a sub player, but doesn’t do so in case of ando. And btw, come la liga opening day, we’ll see if shojaei will start or not …. Which might make matters for our TM staff “ghooz-e bala ghooz” if he doesn’t walk onto the pitch

-----------------------------------

What personal agenda ? Who told you that Kia is being struck out because he is a sub in his club?
You have read a misquote by Human in on of the papers and immediately assumed that it is a FACT.

Peyman Jan , don't do a Ghotbi on us. The Gentleman made a fool of himself by publicly criticizing Perspolis management , without having all the facts or contracts details of the players or staff.... He since apologized to PP management. I keep telling you , little knowledge is dangerous.

Talk to Human and find the facts from him.

I agree. It is not all black and white. And mere playing zareh may not mean we’d be thrashed 10-0 . But we have seen how he crumbled and played sub par against far weaker oppositions and how aghili was stretched thin trying to cover for zareh’s repeated fumbles, misses, absence, turn-overs, …. . this, at least, needs little exercise in logic to know he is not the right choice or at least, not the best we have, baradar-e man.

I have said it in other posts that I am no one to arrange any team. But I go by players’ capabilities. There are some things that one cant deny.
For example kia’s utter supremacy over the likes of sadeghi. Now, if I say how come kia is dropped and sadeghi, even after his pretty pathetic showing in WCQ’s is not, that’s not to be mistaken for “arranging teams”.
That’s just following logic.

Again the same subject ...

Perhaps the performance of Zare was not up to scratch in a match or two. I don't want to claim that I know better options and if that option can deliver at crucial stage , but what assurance you have that the option will perform better, Peyman Jan?

You said it very clearly , it is not black or white. This is not an electric switch that goes ON or OFF. It is the coach who assess the risks and decides.

You said " That’s just following logic..." , so what you are perhaps saying is that others , including Daei does not have logic. Well, you don't need to answer because his illogical selection might be anything from a good result or a bad defeat.

you mean you see nothing unnatural in seeing 8-9 players from the team that reached 11th rank last season and is near the bottom nowadays, but teams far better than them, having 1 or none in TM?
You mean that doesn’t raise ANY flags with you?
Really ?


-------------------------------

As for the matter of “comfortable”, I must say there are limits to everything.
Daei may feel “comfortable” with someone like an injured or an out of form or an inferior player. I accept that.
But shd he sacrifice efficiency and technical aspects TOTALLY for “comfort” ?
Shuster may feel comfortable with bayatinia. Shd he throw out robinho and replace him with bayatinia ? would that be ok with you ? ( and plz answer seriously. Not like some others who just say things for the sake of arguing or countering )

Your whole argument revolves around the same old thing. Player's selection. If I want to get into the nitty gritty of this argument , I honestly could write a thesis.

Comfortable has a limit , you said. So , Dear peyman , what is the limit of comfort ? I am truly unaware with such limits. Care to explain that?

Schuster is comfortable with Baytinia !! I thought he is the coach o Real Madrid and Bayatinia , the last time I heard of him , plays in Esteghlal , care to explain to me further how is it possible for schuster to replace Robinho , so that I can give you a logical answer?

[maij]

Daie, ghotbi, GN, MK, Dr. Z, firouz karimi, mazloumi.. etc etc..

they are all human beings, with ideas, feelings , faults and greeds of their own..

my question to agha Majeed is that even though I fully agree with all that you said in your last post (and I mean it), picking and choosing WHICH "orchestrated and systematical critiques" you are concerned with, makes it seem like you are OK with the "orchestrated and systematical critiques" as long as it's not against Daie...

I don't remember much of your opposition or concern with the "orchestrated and systematical critiques", when certain members where opening up threads left and right on this very site to bash the coach of TM with the most unbelievable ARAJEEF, for months on, leading to AFC games.. And then the same with Ghotbi..

just not Daie..

Your concerns, "orchestrated and systematical critiques", are certainly valid. I don't like it either when our people beat it to death with everything.. be it in bashing or in adoring...

I hope you did have a good rest.

Behzad Jan , with all due respect , the question is irrelevant to the subject matter.

To start with I am not supposed to be the defender of the human race or anyone that is under criticism. You guys had the same forum and same ability to defend whoever it was under attack, why wait for me? And >>>> please allow me the liberty of expressing my own opinion the way and the time I feel comfortable with, NOT because someone is leading me to do so.

Anyway, since you asked my honorable friend, I feel obliged and you deserve an explanation.

I have made my opinion very clear about Ghotbi and Ghalenoei in many posts. In GN, I had very little knowledge of his character and personality (except the fact the he was hot headedwith the same points such as players selection, which is definitely and absolutely a right of any coach in the world) will degrade it.

I have a lot of respect for people in this forum who are mature and display good knowledge and common sense such as Agha Dr. Peyman, That is why I feel disappointed when I read some of these comments, not that I claim that I love Team Melli more than him or anybody else. It is the way we portray things.

[Doctor DOOM]

i already did but u seemed to ignore it.
so, again i repeat my question and this time, i let u try again amd come up with a valid answer:



raul vs guiza incase u still dont get my question

still no biscuit.
wasnt guiza la liga's TOP SCORER ?

you see.
you are trying to match up super-stars and top performers with sadeghi, who at best, had a very average season at IPL. ( meaning raul was side-lined for the TOP SCORER of arguably the best league in the world. not by some mediocre, average player from la liga )
sorry buddy. you dont get to match them up, unfortunately.


try once more.

let me help you along.

if you prove to me that raul was struck off in favor of say ossasuna's ( or any other average-to-low team's average player ) striker , then I'd accept your argument.
was he ?

[Doctor DOOM]

I know that very well. There is no vested interest or relationship to protect one player or another. But when it ..................