Can Ghotbi be a second Mohajerani of Iran?

[perspolees]

Payman jaan.....Perspolees Jaan..........
Let me assume, you guys have not been in Iran lately.
1-You go to buy Bread.....the guy uses his fingers that was just in his nose,and fixes the KHAMIR ..........Do you think, you can dare to say something ?....he will throw you out of his shop.
2-You go to bank........there are 30 bank employees, which 26 of which are on the other side of the counter,behind thier personal tables,some have computer,some going through stamping some papers, and most tables ,the guy is not at his table,in other tables,the employees are getting together and haveing tea together,and other tables,there is no one behind it, and God knows where he is.........and more than 50 to 60 people are in 4 lines ( not a civilized line ),some pushing over the counter to pass others,and some begging the 4 tellers ,for faivor to take care of bussiness........you want balance on your account, you wait,half an hour, then write you info and sign and date a form...then, go to another teller wait for 10 more minutes, and give it to him...them he says, come tommorow,to get your print-out...........( Believe me,I am not exadurating )
3-You go to Shahrdari, to prepare papers to sell your house........ , There is not enough space here for me to explain to you what happened to me,during 10 consacetive days,and crying and begging, and bribbing, and HERAST,and darboon, etc,etc,etc.........the most heard comment,is " COME BACK NEXT WEEK " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4-you go to streets, there are thousands of thousands,unfinished projects, ..form asphalts to pipes,to electricity, to water, to side walk, to abandened buildings,etc,etc,etc.
....................
the country is ****ED UP!!
The organizations are totaly redicules.....the manegment, is worse than, non-existance...........Bribery,theft, charkh la sang andakhtan, non-attendance of employees,non-accountabilities, party bazi, famil Bazi, no production, etc,etc,etc,..............................
Perspolees Jaan, THE IFF, may be the best maneged,best founded, best organized, organization there is in IRAN.
Some body told me, with the traffic in tehran...if there was any corporate manaegment in Iran......70% of traffic would have been cleared...as, these 70%,are people who are going to places for thier 10 TH or 20 th time, for something you and I do with 2 minutes telephone call,in Europe or USA.

zzjan, you asked me to comment on this post...
we all agree on these! or at least I do!
but what to do?
zendooniya to zendan bemmeran?
kajraftari bemoone?
dozdi bemoone?
how would you suggest to change it!?
by bringing chiraque to Iran?
or how about clinton!!? or this or that other great leader of teh free world!!?
then why is it that we think that bringing hiddink will solve or do anything for us!!?

by bringing a new king or Molla ahead of this team called Iran!!?

or by EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION to show that it is not the guy that all of sudden is put atop it is US who should know better...the guy could be great but what can he do if we dig to shit in mostarahe irani!!?

the same thing with tm!!

bring murrhinio and nikbakht and karimi will still have their finger up their nose!!

we were talki about a remedy for our football, and all I always voice is that IT HAS NEVER BEEN, IT IS NOT NOW AND WILL NOT BE FOR A LOOOOONG TIME BEFORE THIS COACH OR THAT would be the main issue for our uprise and sparks and downfalls of football...

thats what I think is thinking out of the box

you cant sit and say OK I am bent over and will not do anything because iri is as such...see the examples in volleyball and basketball and how they succeede? they did that within this regime....

I see it stupid and fundamentally wrong to go and spend shiit load of money on coaches that come and go but we do not have lighted stadiums and a calander yet!!

so what is there to do or suggest?

education and improvement of gray mattter is the only way from politics, to football to this to that! as such I find it exceptionally narrow mindedness to feel and believe that one man can come and make all of these thngs over noght change and get better!

[Doctor DOOM]

You see !!! , there new Sangs that you have not seen !!, and if you put charkh inside them, they are no longer stationery,and become mobile !!

baba eyval !

[zzgloo]

Bahram Jaan,
Farseet ham panchar shoodeh dadash, as I remember it was Choob laye chark gozashtan, but no human can put a charkh laye sang!!

You see !!! , there new Sangs that you have not seen !!, and if you put charkh inside them, they are no longer stationery,and become mobile !!

[zzgloo]

you can repeat yourself as many times as tyou want, but unless you think out of the box you wont see the matrix!
obviously change of regime is very important. I have sai that many times, if you look at my threads you will find this out! ON THIS GROUND means within IRI and its fesad...
we get a democratic regime that cares for the peole ofcourse it would be easier to move football on that ground...what does this have to do with your arguments about this coach or that coach!!?
thinking out of the box is this:
granted a revolutiona nd change of gov would be great, not only for football but also for much more imoprtant stuff provided that this regime change is in teh rite direction, but we are talking football here and without revolution there are things taht we could all agree on and demand
my point is to educate the masses to see that khar hamoon khare paloonesh aavaz shde hala chera ta sob hanjere jer meeded ke gn bere hiddink biyad!

Perspolees Jaan, would you be kind,and comment on my other post also,?
The post # 29.................
Your above post seems contradictory !!!, In one hand, you say, we can not wait for governement,to be corrected,and we need to be realistic,..and in other hand, you say, we need foundemental change......

[perspolees]

I say again,and repeat myself......you are thinking in absolute !!
If, you are aware of what is going on in Iran, and if you are considerate of Iran,and if you are an idealist........you need to push for change of regim !, not IFF, and fundemetal change in Football.......
My frind, they go together, in case you did not know !!
This is what you need to go after,if you realy, realy think about foundations,and do not want to settle with what is at hand.

you can repeat yourself as many times as tyou want, but unless you think out of the box you wont see the matrix!
obviously change of regime is very important. I have sai that many times, if you look at my threads you will find this out! ON THIS GROUND means within IRI and its fesad...

we get a democratic regime that cares for the peole ofcourse it would be easier to move football on that ground...what does this have to do with your arguments about this coach or that coach!!?

thinking out of the box is this:
granted a revolutiona nd change of gov would be great, not only for football but also for much more imoprtant stuff provided that this regime change is in teh rite direction, but we are talking football here and without revolution there are things taht we could all agree on and demand

my point is to educate the masses to see that khar hamoon khare paloonesh aavaz shde hala chera ta sob hanjere jer meeded ke gn bere hiddink biyad!

[Doctor DOOM]

I think he just "combined" sang andaakhtan & choob laye charkh gozashtan !
to EMPHASIZE his point.



heh!
sang moft o , two in the bush.

[Ali Chicago]

....................
, charkh la sang andakhtan,

Bahram Jaan,

Farseet ham panchar shoodeh dadash, as I remember it was Choob laye chark gozashtan, but no human can put a charkh laye sang!!

[Doctor DOOM]

heh!
bahram jan, dsat roo delam nazar, baradar.

last year I was in Iran ( for a few months, in fact. Had spinal disc prolapse which prevented me from travel & had to stay put for 3 months ! ) and I had to correct a spelling mistake on my nat'l ID.

My good God, a simple correction of a simple "spelling mistake" took almost 2 months !!! believe me, I KNOW it is pathetically khar too khar in Iran and nothing works! the lines, the indifferent officials, the cumbersome and unnecessary paper work, the disgusting work ethics ( or lack thereof ), ... all say one thing:
if we want to wait for the infrastructure and foundation to get corrected, we gotta wait for half a CENTURY !

[zzgloo]

Payman jaan.....Perspolees Jaan..........
Let me assume, you guys have not been in Iran lately.
1-You go to buy Bread.....the guy uses his fingers that was just in his nose,and fixes the KHAMIR ..........Do you think, you can dare to say something ?....he will throw you out of his shop.
2-You go to bank........there are 30 bank employees, which 26 of which are on the other side of the counter,behind thier personal tables,some have computer,some going through stamping some papers, and most tables ,the guy is not at his table,in other tables,the employees are getting together and haveing tea together,and other tables,there is no one behind it, and God knows where he is.........and more than 50 to 60 people are in 4 lines ( not a civilized line ),some pushing over the counter to pass others,and some begging the 4 tellers ,for faivor to take care of bussiness........you want balance on your account, you wait,half an hour, then write you info and sign and date a form...then, go to another teller wait for 10 more minutes, and give it to him...them he says, come tommorow,to get your print-out...........( Believe me,I am not exadurating )
3-You go to Shahrdari, to prepare papers to sell your house........ , There is not enough space here for me to explain to you what happened to me,during 10 consacetive days,and crying and begging, and bribbing, and HERAST,and darboon, etc,etc,etc.........the most heard comment,is " COME BACK NEXT WEEK " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4-you go to streets, there are thousands of thousands,unfinished projects, ..form asphalts to pipes,to electricity, to water, to side walk, to abandened buildings,etc,etc,etc.
....................
the country is ****ED UP!!
The organizations are totaly redicules.....the manegment, is worse than, non-existance...........Bribery,theft, charkh la sang andakhtan, non-attendance of employees,non-accountabilities, party bazi, famil Bazi, no production, etc,etc,etc,..............................
Perspolees Jaan, THE IFF, may be the best maneged,best founded, best organized, organization there is in IRAN.
Some body told me, with the traffic in tehran...if there was any corporate manaegment in Iran......70% of traffic would have been cleared...as, these 70%,are people who are going to places for thier 10 TH or 20 th time, for something you and I do with 2 minutes telephone call,in Europe or USA.

[Doctor DOOM]

In Iran without the organization and base work things will not happen, our talent could compensate for some of this but not all.
Our football will not change without base work this coach and that coach will perform the same under these conditions, as they have and as seen within teh past whatever many years that we watch our tm!

so, according to you, what is to be done?
shall we wait till our foundation and base is strong and sound , and then attack the more "superficial" aspects of the game like nat'l team coaches?
ok.

lets say we choose to wait.
till when?
2 yrs?
5 yrs?
10?
you know Iran pretty well I presume. you really think 5 yrs or 10 years down the line with this gov't and these problems in the country, any of our shortages is going to be resolved ?
which ones?
lack of youth system?
lack of stadia?
lack of proper & correct attitude among the officials and all the peripheral ppl to the game?
....etc.

ok. lets say 10 yrs down the line ( I know it's almost an impossibility, since we are NOT japan or china. but lets just "IMAGINE & FANTASIZE" ) if we are LUCKY and start serious work TODAY, funnel lots of money and hardwork and personel into the plan, we'd get to the correct levels of infrastructure.
what do we do in the meantime?
10 yrs make do with the likes of GN and MK and ... ?

would YOU, want that?
knowing what it means. which is more losses. falling behind all asian rivals even more. more heart-breaks and more eliminations.
not that bringing the likes of denizli means otherwise. but at least we know the small part of "coaching at TM level" is sort of taken care of .


what do YOU propose.
and plz dont just say we shd have good foundation.
a little more precise and in detail , plz.

=======================================

bahram jan. I say even if we push for change of regime ( football shouldnt be the reason for it. Iranian people shd be the reason ), it would take another 5-8 years after that, to see any kind of attention given to the sports befitting of what we need.

the first few years will be spent on rebuilding of the country and football will not ( and shd not ) be a priority.

[zzgloo]

I think of people that bang on teh coach issue as obsolete and inconsiderate of Iran and its suitation!!

I say again,and repeat myself......you are thinking in absolute !!
If, you are aware of what is going on in Iran, and if you are considerate of Iran,and if you are an idealist........you need to push for change of regim !, not IFF, and fundemetal change in Football.......
My frind, they go together, in case you did not know !!

This is what you need to go after,if you realy, realy think about foundations,and do not want to settle with what is at hand.

[perspolees]

to remind you of your own statement in the other thread, didnt you use the 98 WC games as an example of our best football offered ?

who was responsible for that?
what kind of facilities and infrstrctr did we have then?
do you mean to say our foundation and facilities were very good by 98 and that's why we performed so well?

but seriously, didnt Ivic have a SIGNIFICANT role in how we surprised ourselves and the world by beating USA and going toe to toe with the giants of europe ( at the time ), yugoslavia ? ... and even germany ?
dont you think it was Ivic's effect ?

in fact , this example of IVIC's significance, can be used to prove good TM coaches CAN improve our football. but that, I agree, is a short term plan.
at the same time, we MUST improve the peripheral and supporting areas of our football also to make any leaps forward by using coaches, SUSTAINABLE and long lasting. this is the long term plan and more fundamental side of the coin.
both plans can run concurrently and simultaneously. and SHOULD, in my opinion.

Please look at the context that I said that. In response to you claiming our recent times

as I mentioned before, 98 included the reason for sparks in tm has never been the coach!!
it has been:
luck
inconsistant player performance

98 was because of those two and nothing else that we had a spark.


this issue of foreign coach and then vatani and then foreign coach has been in the past and mark my words will be in the future used only for political gains of the iff and baraye inke mardomo donbale nokhod siyah beferestand...watch the next iff head..( getting rid of gn and hiring a foreigner perhaps !!
hala shoma ya donbaleroye nokhod siyahi ya belakhare ino meebeeni...I am sure one day you will see the matrix!!

[perspolees]

Perspolees Jaan...............
It seems , you are looking at this, alittle in absolutes !!
We need to come to accept,that we are not some other countries, as we are IRAN with all our antiques !!
I know,it is frustrating,but you can not milk the male cow !!
Planning, organization,long term,infur-struture,etc,etc.....are, new Ideas for our culture, and any attemp to do those, will be ,on the job training,and an elementary attemp.................as simple as that !!
have you ever heard that Joke, which talks about ,what happends in iranian " Hell " ??............when there is " GHIR,there is no Ghif, when there is Ghif, there is no Satl, where is there is satl, there is no hendler ""............
this is what we are !!!!!!!!!!!!
Indeed, may be haveing the good coach,is the best thing we can do, as he can cover-up, all over short comeings, and pretend, we are organized.

I think of people that bang on teh coach issue as obsolete and inconsiderate of Iran and its suitation!!
In Iran without the organization and base work things will not happen, our talent could compensate for some of this but not all.
Our football will not change without base work this coach and that coach will perform the same under these conditions, as they have and as seen within teh past whatever many years that we watch our tm!

[zzgloo]

and loooooooooooooooooooooooong time we shall wait simply because we do not have infra structure.
and lllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooonger if we think that the coaching factor is of any significance for tm and now....rather than at least understanding that giving all of this dough to a foreigner to come and go and perform like GN did is just waste of time and money...they are all destined to fail! gn, denizli, hiddink, kapello,etc. etc...
with this recipe and belief we will never get there!
every single piece has to be in harmony with the other
every thought to become reality needs hard work and plannig.
The cure is never hiring a great coach for tm...has never been and will never be for a long time, for that our short term history on this board is the witness! nothing has changed drastically!!
this issue of foreign coach and then vatani and then foreign coach has been in the past and mark my words will be in the future used only for political gains of the iff and baraye inke mardomo donbale nokhod siyah beferestand...watch the next iff head..( getting rid of gn and hiring a foreigner perhaps !!
hala shoma ya donbaleroye nokhod siyahi ya belakhare ino meebeeni...I am sure one day you will see the matrix!!
we go up and down based on essentially two things:
players talent and performance at any given time that is never persistant
and
draw of the luck!
so why bang on the coach issue!!?
Ofcourse everything is multifactorial, but they are hardly ever seperate when you wat to put a plan to succeed..one feed from another and they go in a harmonious chain reaction.
we do need short term, midterm, longrterm plans, in none of these plans if the idea is to succeed hiring this coach or that for tm is of any significance and can be for a long time to come...thats

Perspolees Jaan...............
It seems , you are looking at this, alittle in absolutes !!
We need to come to accept,that we are not some other countries, as we are IRAN with all our antiques !!
I know,it is frustrating,but you can not milk the male cow !!
Planning, organization,long term,infur-struture,etc,etc.....are, new Ideas for our culture, and any attemp to do those, will be ,on the job training,and an elementary attemp.................as simple as that !!
have you ever heard that Joke, which talks about ,what happends in iranian " Hell " ??............when there is " GHIR,there is no Ghif, when there is Ghif, there is no Satl, where is there is satl, there is no hendler ""............
this is what we are !!!!!!!!!!!!
Indeed, may be haveing the good coach,is the best thing we can do, as he can cover-up, all over short comeings, and pretend, we are organized.

[Doctor DOOM]

and loooooooooooooooooooooooong time we shall wait simply because we do not have infra structure.
and lllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooonger if we think that the coaching factor is of any significance for tm and now....

to remind you of your own statement in the other thread, didnt you use the 98 WC games as an example of our best football offered ?

who was responsible for that?
what kind of facilities and infrstrctr did we have then?
do you mean to say our foundation and facilities were very good by 98 and that's why we performed so well?

but seriously, didnt Ivic have a SIGNIFICANT role in how we surprised ourselves and the world by beating USA and going toe to toe with the giants of europe ( at the time ), yugoslavia ? ... and even germany ?
dont you think it was Ivic's effect ?

in fact , this example of IVIC's significance, can be used to prove good TM coaches CAN improve our football. but that, I agree, is a short term plan.
at the same time, we MUST improve the peripheral and supporting areas of our football also to make any leaps forward by using coaches, SUSTAINABLE and long lasting. this is the long term plan and more fundamental side of the coin.
both plans can run concurrently and simultaneously. and SHOULD, in my opinion.