The likely scenario for Iran in the Asian Cup 2007

[Doctor DOOM]

3- you said a coach who fails consistently isnt a good coach.
well, arent you too harsh?
I can name tens of GREAT coaches who havent won anything in 2-3 years in a row.
but the world over they are considered GREAT coaches no matter what.

and you are judging denizli by two ... I repeat, TWO seasons ?
hmmm.... lest see how many great coaches I can come up who havent won anything in just 2 seasons .
THE LIST IS TOO BLOODY LONG !


and while on the subject , could u tell me who according to you is a great coach ?
just name a few.













............... just make sure they have won trophies year in and year out , in a row .
non stop.
or at least not missed winning anything by TWO years.
so alternative years also qualify.

[Doctor DOOM]

lol, ali jan.
I'm not emotionally attached to the guy.
I just liked what he did at PP and Paas .... despite the few mistakes and problems.
that's all.
I also believe he is one of the few foriegn coaches who
are actually GOOD,
and will be able to help our TM,
can acclimatize with Iranian football w all its deficiencies and shortcomings,
can make a better connection w Iranian players,
and most importantly will not take the next flight out as soon as they hear a "no" or "we dont have" or "we cant" ... much like the haans and .... who came and went.

he has guts and is ready to get something ... as much positive as he is capable of, out of the helter skelter football we have.

this is worth appreciating and admiring.
and I do admire such ppl.


--------------

ali jan you said a couple of things that I feel I gotta address:

1- a coach who doesnt win trophy is a failed coach !!
how can that be?
is it so black and white?
so in ALL the leagues in the world they ALL have only one successful coach and the rest are failures?
is that even possible to accept?


2- we mentioned top class coaches, and you said their work is measured by their trophies & only winning is where the coach can make a difference.
well all that can be somewhat close to the truth at high level that everything is more or less in place and all we are left is to see which tactical master is more luckiest/wisest/cleverest of them all.

but in crappy leagues like ours, with all sorts of sub standard football and facilities and amateurish mentality and management and attitude of players and ... , coaches can make a difference in OTHER WAYS TOO.
such as starting or laying the foundation for more quality or better youth program or higher standard of performance or teamwork or ... .


pouring a good engine oil into a bogatti doesnt really make such a difference performance-wise ( maybe it will go from 230 MPH to 238 MPH ), from its neighboring ferrari or ... .
but the same oil , given to a beat up ford will cause palpable improvement in its performance.

or easier :
giving a glass of water to a well fed person wont make much of a difference.
but giving a few drops of it to a dehydrated and thirsty fellow will make quite a change in his well being.

[Ali Chicago]

Payman Jaan,

I think you are a little bit (ok more than a little bit) emotionally attached to this Denizli guy. I have been wrong before and I can be wrong on this as well, but this emotional attachement, probably will hinder your judgement.

I respectfully have to point out that coaches at the pro level are there to win and will be judged based on their results. At EPL level or IPL level if a coach can't win the title he has failed. You see a coach at the youth level or u23 level has the luxury of just providing beautiful level and not be as sensetive to the result (since he is a developmental coach). At the pro club level, it is a different story. I hope Wenger, Rajkart and all those coaches that you listed (and are very good coaches nevertheles but failed this year), look at their performance in the last season with a criticial attitude ( I am sure they will). Point is one just can't say, team played well, so coach was successful. Beleive me, this year, Both Arsenal and Braca were the only two teams, I really loved to watch their football (since they played beautiful), and it is really hard for me to admit failure for Wenger or Rajkart in this last season. But winning is where the coach can make a difference (with the right subs during the game, right tactical formation, etc. etc.).

I think we need to differentiate two things here. A coach can be very good and yet not successful in one season. Now a good coach who is consistantly not successful. This will be an oxymorone. If a coach isn't successful consistantly probably he isn't a good coach after all. Please remember I said a very good coach, can fail to win one season and he goes and learns from the things he learned and win titles the next year. So I am not claiming a good coach wins every year. Wether Denizli is a very good coach who just failed to win a single season is debatable at best. Since he failed with Paas as well.

With Denizli, it seems with both Paas and PP, he wasn't able to win. This is getting a bit worrisome. But I still am not ready to make a full judgement there. However, I think failures to win championship with two clubs in Iran, should create a shadow a dobut in your phsycic I assme.

I have always admired your sense of independence and cirtical point of view and I have a hard time to understand (which probably is my fault), how come the same critical point of view isnt' extended to analyze Denizili's performance.

[Doctor DOOM]

on the topic:

I think if we get a fairly good physical conditioning done by the team by the time we hit the quarter finals, then it wouldnt matter who we'd meet.
we shd be able to have an equal chance at winning any of the games after that.
so no need to fear aussies or ksa or japan, or .... .

as long as we get a good physical conditioning by the end of group phase.


===============================
this is w referrence to paradigm jan's reply . I know it's off topic, but he did ask me , so here it is:


I don’t know about some of you guys, but my standards and measuring sticks are different.

Not having won a cup in 2 years doesn’t mean diddly sh*t.
Just as having won a cup doesnt mean a coach is superior to the rest. Otherwise all of you have to come here and shout GN is better than denizli, Dr. Z, firroz karimi, kazemi, bonacic, ….
Will you?
I didn’t think so.

So basing it on “winning a cup” is totally flawed.
Wenger didn’t win jack this year.
Is he a horrible coach?
Rajkard fumbled all 3 trophies he’d won last year. Does that mean he’s a poor coach?

Come on ppl. Get some perspective here.
But that is ur opinion and ur right to like or dislike.

In MY books, denizli did a very good job, considering what he had at pp, the kind of trouble this club faced with all its hashiyeh, given its poor management , given the poor roster picked by ANOTHER coach, given the horrendous state of its defenders who either rebelled or were injured thru’ the season, given the illogical expectations of pp fans ( especially when they haven’t won sh*t in 4-5 years !!!! and …. , he still managed to get good quality football out of them, raised their ranking in IPL, had the best offensive team in league ( especially with a team devoid of even a single decent forward ), …. Etc.

Yes, I’d strongly say he has done well at PP. even if he didn’t win the trophy. ( again, plz explain when was the last time this team did win anything ? plz reply to this if you expect me to go on repeating the same thing over and over. And while u r at it, plz explain when was the last time you saw pp play such quality football. Thank you in advance )



Yes, if you ask me, I’d say he’d be extremely good for TM.

p.s.: I’m really fed up of repeating the same thing over and over.
From now on, I’ll just say there are ppl who go by “numbers” , and there are ppl who go a little deeper and whose peripheral vision is a little wider.

[Ali Chicago]

i still feel that we started late...badansazi should have started a few weeks earlier, even tho I know with so many of our boys playing outside Iran and the IPL and hazfi finishing late, it was kind of impossible, but we always get hurt due to getting together too late!. I hope I am wrong.

You are right, we started conditioning late. Even GN in his interviews mentioned we are 10 days late. But I guess these are the challenges of playing football in a globalization era. Iran isn't the only one who is having problem though, if you think we are in bad shape, read the first page article of the Iran Varzeshi (Tuesday) and see how pissed off Ooseem (Japan's head coach) and Peem Verbeek (Korea's coach) are with not having the NT players. Verbeek is so furious with two clubs not giving their players to the NT camp, that he said, he isn't hopeful about Korea's performance in this tournament at all.

[The-Red]

i still feel that we started late...badansazi should have started a few weeks earlier, even tho I know with so many of our boys playing outside Iran and the IPL and hazfi finishing late, it was kind of impossible, but we always get hurt due to getting together too late!. I hope I am wrong.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

To me, we have to take it one game at a time. If we face Aussies, so be it. If a team is there to win the whole god damn thing, should act like one and won't be afraid of facing X or Y. We as fans I think should have more confidance in our team as well. This aussie team we tied against in Azadi back in WC98 qualification and Melburne (although they dominated us in Melburne). At that time, there wasn't a decent pitch in Azadi, no Pro IPL and not as many legioners ..... . I think we are overestimating our competitions and underestimating our team.
I play pickup with bunch of Chineese guys sometimes, you should see how these guys talk about Iranian players (even Daie who despite being a great goal scorer in the past, was never a showcase player), but to chinees guys, Dai, Kia and Karimi names is enough to these guys shit their pants. Not saying to get over confident here, but we need to respect ourselves. Cause some guy's name is Tim Cahil or John Aloisi, doesn't mean, Hosseini, Rezai or Karimi aren't as good if not better than him.

well said!

[Ali Chicago]

To me, we have to take it one game at a time. If we face Aussies, so be it. If a team is there to win the whole god damn thing, should act like one and won't be afraid of facing X or Y. We as fans I think should have more confidance in our team as well. This aussie team we tied against in Azadi back in WC98 qualification and Melburne (although they dominated us in Melburne). At that time, there wasn't a decent pitch in Azadi, no Pro IPL and not as many legioners ..... . I think we are overestimating our competitions and underestimating our team.

I play pickup with bunch of Chineese guys sometimes, you should see how these guys talk about Iranian players (even Daie who despite being a great goal scorer in the past, was never a showcase player), but to chinees guys, Dai, Kia and Karimi names is enough to these guys shit their pants. Not saying to get over confident here, but we need to respect ourselves. Cause some guy's name is Tim Cahil or John Aloisi, doesn't mean, Hosseini, Rezai or Karimi aren't as good if not better than him.

[gol_kuchik]

So it seems to me the best scenario for us would be to avoid possible
confrontation with Australia to the last game as mentioned. The reason being, I believe,
even if we handle Australia in the Semis, we may not be left with much
in the tank to deliever on the final.

In my view, Saudi and S.K are no different as far as we are concerned. However if we are the group C winner, we almost certainly will meet
Australia if we win the game against S.K or Saudi, and Ausies should not
have problem winning their Q-F match as already mentioned.

However, if we finish 2nd in groups C, then we wont meet the Ausies until
finals but in that case they may get eliminated in the Semis, and even if they
dont, and we make it to the final we sure will be ooozing with confidence.
(Although Australia got much better with every game in the last WC).

Heres my ideal outcome after group stage:

Group A:
Australia
Iraq (sheate, this is the toughest group!) Oman and Thailand are
as likely to be second

Groupd B:
Japan
UAE (Easisest of the 4 groups)

Group C:
China (Uzbeks are masters at choking)
Iran

Group D
Saudi
S.K

This will be in my view the ultimate desirable outcome of the first round
for Iran.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

group C (China, Iran, Uzbekistan, Malaysia) is an easy one.

Asghar Agha Khan are you sure?

Uzbeks are very strong in my eyes! they can give us headaches?
Malaysia - easy task
China - if we play with clear head, should be easy task.

But Uzbeks are physically and technically strong

[Asghar Agha]

group C (China, Iran, Uzbekistan, Malaysia) is an easy one.

[kaz]

Iran has the second hardest group in the tourney, have no doubt about it. After the Saudi/S.Korea/Bahrain group we have the hardest one. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't looked at the group tables or hasn't followed Asian football recently.

Uzbekistan is Bahrain calibre and can provide trouble. China has stepped up in Asian football and is now a top tier team in this continent, also with their own group of legionnaires. In fact, considering the S.Korean side isn't coming with it's three players - Lee, Park, Seol - and our group can be seen as equal hardest.

But regardless, Iran could and probably should come away with 9 points, 3 wins. With China I can see a possible draw, but we should beat the rest.

[Paradigm]

If you plz expound on this, I'll try to explain.
what do you mean?
any particular reference?

Well, Denizli won zero out of the eight possible cups with Perspolis this year. This was a recent front page article. Also as far as IPL is concerned, PP did not start to climb up until they signed up Kaabi, so I don't attribute their better finish this year to Denizli. In general, unless we get someone like Guuss Hiddink who has had an established track record with virtually every team he has coached to date, I don't prefer picking an average foreign coach such as Ivankovich or Denizli to head TM.

Another issue with employing foreign coaches is that of language barriers and the problem of effectively communicating with players, specially when it comes down to matters such as motivation and psychology. Also it generally is a matter of pride to me if our TM achieves an important title under a vatani coach (remember the Asian Games 1990 under Parvin?) I am hoping the likes of Daie and Kia can be the future options for us in the coming years.

[Ali Chicago]

[QUOTE=zzgloo;718217]

manzooresh eeneh ke Dnizli Reed ba perspolise
I like your frensique explanation !!!.....Denizeli indeed did what you said !

manzooresh eeneh ke Dnizli Reed ba perspolise
.. why do you still advocate him for TM
I think that's what he meant.

You two are bad boys . Mark a X in front of their names. Agha Behzad what is going on, in sarcastic mood since last night dada.

[zzgloo]

[QUOTE=behzadb;717625]manzooresh eeneh ke Dnizli Reed ba perspolise

I like your frensique explanation !!!.....Denizeli indeed did what you said !