The likely scenario for Iran in the Asian Cup 2007

[Ali Chicago]

Damn those days in 2007. Che ghadr az daste Ala azab kesheedeem. The kid was opening threads at the rate a rabbit gives birth against GN and one day before the game against Korea, all of a sudden he opened 20 threads will all the national anthems and stuff, supporting tm. I guess for one day he wasn't critical of GN!!!!???
Nakhl, Ala,, latest Neda is Amazing. I rephrase, We Iranians are amazing, each of us can be analyzed by 10 shrinks and keep them employed full time.

[dvader6]

interesting thread.
going through this thread I have learned one thing, and that is coaches like joachim low, Van marwijk, capello, lippi, ... etc are all useless, sh1tty coaches because they didnt win a trophy!

[Paradigm]

thanks for the dates and times, mate.

I, personally, think a semifinal berth is quite an achievement .

I beleive we have what it takes to go through the group stage.
quarters as u said is very difficult.
if we win this game, I say we've achieved a great feat & surpassed our previous performances by leaps and bounds. ( let us remember the last time, AC04, KSA wasnt there and aussies hadnt joined yet! )

LoL Doc, just looked up this thread again. Knowing what happened, my predictions were mostly off.

[Paradigm]

So the conclusion of this thread is, the likely scenario for Iran in AC '07 was a 1/4 final elimination in a PK shoot-out, at the hands of the familiar contenders South Korea. I guess with this tried-and-trusted trend we are destined (as in a divine providence) to beat them in the 1/4-finals of 2011. (endless cycle...!)

[yashar_fasihnia]

I hope you won't assume Bahrain will be just a walk in the park. We all well know the consequences of that.

nope, i dont, none of the teams will be.

[Paradigm]

bahrain is a good pick for me as well, their main players are old and we trashed them the past few times we met.

I hope you won't assume Bahrain will be just a walk in the park. We all well know the consequences of that.

[yashar_fasihnia]

bahrain is a good pick for me as well, their main players are old and we trashed them the past few times we met.

[Doctor DOOM]

With today's results, I have a feeling we could be playing Bahrain in the 1/4-final match. What do you think about that possibility?

good choice.
better than facing either ksa or korea.
I'd take these morons anyday than tough teams like those.

and it's been sometime since we thrashed them.
so a re-fresher course may be helpful

[Paradigm]

With today's results, I have a feeling we could be playing Bahrain in the 1/4-final match. What do you think about that possibility?

[zzgloo]

We should not count on Coaches, only on the paper, as thier state of mind and motivation at the time could make a big difference.....
Branko,indeed was motivated, and needed to do good for his own future,as to insure a place in european clubs coaching ....but, Denizali, realy wanted money, he did do good,early on, but the atmospher in Iran got to him, and he saw perspolise as a team, who is run by other hands,and not a coach, so he let it go...and did not realy put much effort for PP.and was already thinking about leaving Iran.

[yashar_fasihnia]

today on jaame jam 2, jalali was the analyser for the jamaica game and he and me were "hamaghideh" in thinking iran will have an easier game against korea rather than saudi arabia.

the reason he mentioned was koreans and east asians in general "mashini fekr mikonan" the coaches sit and analyse karimi and tell them, this is wat u should do to cover karimi, and the korean defender will do nothing but watever the coach tells him to do. wat they tend to ignore is taht karimi is a creative player who can make different decisions at any instant of time.
the east asians have always been less effective in neutralizing our star players.

[Ali Chicago]

AMOO, I NEVER SAID DENIZLI IS A FERRARI !
BUT I DID SAY FOR ALL THE GOOD COACHES WE "CAN" GET TO COME TO IRAN, HE SEEMS ONE OF THE BEST AS HE WAS READY TO STAY AND FACE THE PROBLEMS , INSTEAD OF RUNNING AWAY IMMEDIATELY.
AND HE DID HAVE A PALPABLE EFFECT ON PAAS' AND PP'S STYLE AND GAME.
THEY BOTH PLAYED GOOD, SOUND FOOTBALL ( FOR OUR STANDARDS ) AND TOOK MANY STEPS FORWARD.
TO ME, THAT'S IMPROVEMENT AND PROGRESS, EVEN IF NOT ENOUGH

Agha Payman,

How many games PP had the lead and screwed the lead up? Please dont' make me to do the painful search through the internet and list them up one by one. Lot of the PP ties were when PP had the lead but couldnt' protect the lead and game was tied.

Well, I guess time will show. We like it or not, there is evaluation at the end. Specially if a coach get paid 1 million dolllars which is a lot by Iranian standards and have tons of fans (as the most popular clubs in Iran) and a third place finish (against a bunch of vatani coaches), I wouldnt' call it a success.

BTW, dont' forget that the thrid place finish by PP was in big part due to the screw up of EsEs in the last three weeks and Sephaan being hamstrung to play in three cups, otherwise PP wouldnt' have got the third spot.

Is Denizli a better coach than vatani coaches ? Yes. Did he deliver for the money he charged? TO me that is a big NO. Dada, if you pay for a BMW, you expect a BMW performance not a Paykan performance. Is he a coach that can bring about result at the natioanl team level for Iran (based on the Paas and PP experiece I tend to say no).

[Kavian]

Whatever happens I don't want to see Australia owning Asia on their first appearance in AFC. And frankly there are only two teams that can stop them in Asia. Iran and Japan. The rest of them are easy walkovers.

Iran must be aware of the high possibility of facing the Aussies in the semi finals and must devise good tactics from day one to conserve players for the tough challenge. Aussies facing Iran will have only one thing in mind. Revenge! and I have to say they are not short of having all the top guns to do it! So, we better be careful.

[Doctor DOOM]

Paymaan Jaan,
I try to address your both posts here.
When I said winning is the norm in a pro league, it doesn't mean that the guy has to win all the trophies, but based on his behavior you can see, if there is a chance for the guy to get there. Does the coach learn from his mistakes? Does he improve on player selection? Does he improve on game reading? How does the team react and adjust to his change of tactics. All of this along with a good organization and a bit of luck lead to championship. So my judgement about Denizli isn't just based on winning. Winning is the culmination of all of these.


ALI JAN, HAVING THE RIGHT PLAYERS, AND A ROSTER THAT DOESNT REBEL OR GETS INJURED CONSTANTLY AND .... AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, NOT HAVING EVEN A SINGLE DECENT FORWARD TO COVERT ALL THE CHANCES, ..... HAVE NO EFFECT ON "WINNING"?








It is not just the mere fact that he didn't win two seasons. There are a couple of issues along with that:
To list it will be:
His teams in both Paas and PP weren't able to protect the lead.


WHEN DID PP HAVE THE "LEAD" ?
( AND PLZ DONT MENTION THE LAST GAME OF THE SEASON !!


His team arrangement was constantly churning
His player selection for the team wasn't top notch.


I FEEL I'VE BEEN REPEATING THIS FOREVER.
BABA ... AGHAYOON, ... DID HE HAVE A FIT ( PHYSICALLY & MENTALLY ) ROSTER OF EVEN 18-20 PLAYERS TO PICK FOR GAMES?
NO !
MOST CLEAR EXAMPLE: NOORI AS DEFENDER !!
OR BADAMAKI, MADANCHI, NIKI AS "FORWARD" !!!!!!!



Let's look at the addition of two Syrian players Jabban and Sahboo. Denizili based on the experience knew PP has two weak points, a finisher forward and in the center of defense. Were Jabban and Shabbo guys who addressed the problem? The difference between likes of Denizli and a Jack like me is that vision, that ability to see things. Was his judgement right? If Shaboo and Jabban weren't the high class, why did he ok their signing? After all this is Denizli's professional judgement that will be questioned later.

YOU OF ALL MEMBERS SHD KNOW THE "HALF SEASON PICKINGS" ARE NOTHING TO GO BY AND NOTHING IS REALLY AVAILABLE TO THE COACHES.
ALTHO' I AGREE HIS PICKS WERENT GOOD AT ALL.


He wasn't (IMHO) a good game reader. I have mentioned how Boncic realized the slower PP defense in the Hazfi final and brought Karimi and Papi to adjust. What was Denizli's counter? Was a fast guy like Aloong brough in right away as soon as he saw what is Bonacic onto? In subs and the ability of the team to change tactic on the fly is where a high class coach can shine.


YOU COULD REALLY HELP ME IF YOU HAD REFERRED TO OTHER THREADS ON THIS.
VERY SHORT: ELONG HAD PROBLEMS WITH HIM AND PP IN GENERAL, THE MOMENT HE FOUND OUT SPARTAK WAS AFTER HIM. HE KEPT ON MISSING TRAINING AND GAMES AND CAME UP WITH LAME EXCUSES LIKE FAKE INJURIES OR ... . AS A DISCIPLINARY MEASURE DENIZLI WANTED TO KICK HIM OUT, BUT PP MANAGEMENT RESISTED AND REINSTATED ELONG.
HE DIDNT WANT TO USE ELONG, BUT WAS FORCED COZ THE OTHER IDIOTIC DEFENDERS LEFT FOR HIM WERE SO BLOODY AWFUL !!!

DENIZLI DID THE VERY SAME THING BONACIC DID: BRING IN A PACEY FORWARD MIDWAY IN 2ND HALF. ( KAABI - KARIMI )
ONE RISK PAID OFF, THE OTHER DIDNT. BECOZ SEPAHAN'S TEAM IS MORE WELL PICKED, DEVOID OF ALL THE TROUBLES OF PP W ITS MANAGEMENT , PLAYERS, FEES, ...
( REMEMBER ASADI THREATENED THE TEAM DAYS BEFORE THE SEMI FINAL !! THE CAPTAIN OF THE TEAM , FFS !!!!!!!!!!!! )




Guess lots of people gonna laugh at me, but GN is an example of a guy who learns very fast from his own mistakes. GN probably is nowhere close to Denizli's level of soccer theoretical knowledge but IMHO is much much faster learner than Denizli. GN doesn't have sacred mottos and change things when it doesn't respond.
Let me give you a couple of examples:
Remember how he got kicked out in that freindly against Stutguart, after that he has changed it seems. Even during the 4-0 loss to Mexcio he remained calm.
It seems he is going to play 4-4-2 against Ghana and in AFC, while he was a high advocate of 3-5-2.
Point of this post isn't to say good things about GN, I dont' want to change this post as a GN vs. Denizli. I merely used him to point out a coach who is much more amenable to change and learns and changes in the process.
As for your example of Ferrari and a shitty car, Denizli must be kicking ass, among the less experienced vatani coaches. If he can't shine among these guys where he will be able to shine. For god sake, Denizili wasn't up against Cappello, Ottmar Hitsfield. He was going againt Gholam Payroovani and Beezhan Zolfagharnasab. So if a Ferrari can't beat a Yugo (former East Germany built car), probably it aint' Ferrari.
In my initial post, I said, there is a difference between a coach who is very good but not successful a year or two. Denizli didn't win two seasons with the Iranian teams. He isn't getting a coaching job in Turkey and for most part is a TV analyst with the CNN in Turkey. Doesn't that indicate something. Aren't we are seeing a trend here? Maybe there isn't one and It is all in my head.

AMOO, I NEVER SAID DENIZLI IS A FERRARI !
BUT I DID SAY FOR ALL THE GOOD COACHES WE "CAN" GET TO COME TO IRAN, HE SEEMS ONE OF THE BEST AS HE WAS READY TO STAY AND FACE THE PROBLEMS , INSTEAD OF RUNNING AWAY IMMEDIATELY.
AND HE DID HAVE A PALPABLE EFFECT ON PAAS' AND PP'S STYLE AND GAME.
THEY BOTH PLAYED GOOD, SOUND FOOTBALL ( FOR OUR STANDARDS ) AND TOOK MANY STEPS FORWARD.
TO ME, THAT'S IMPROVEMENT AND PROGRESS, EVEN IF NOT ENOUGH

[Ali Chicago]

3- you said a coach who fails consistently isnt a good coach.
well, arent you too harsh?
I can name tens of GREAT coaches who havent won anything in 2-3 years in a row.
but the world over they are considered GREAT coaches no matter what.

and you are judging denizli by two ... I repeat, TWO seasons ?
hmmm.... lest see how many great coaches I can come up who havent won anything in just 2 seasons .
THE LIST IS TOO BLOODY LONG !


and while on the subject , could u tell me who according to you is a great coach ?
just name a few.













............... just make sure they have won trophies year in and year out , in a row .
non stop.
or at least not missed winning anything by TWO years.
so alternative years also qualify.

Paymaan Jaan,

I try to address your both posts here.

When I said winning is the norm in a pro league, it doesn't mean that the guy has to win all the trophies, but based on his behavior you can see, if there is a chance for the guy to get there. Does the coach learn from his mistakes? Does he improve on player selection? Does he improve on game reading? How does the team react and adjust to his change of tactics. All of this along with a good organization and a bit of luck lead to championship. So my judgement about Denizli isn't just based on winning. Winning is the culmination of all of these.

It is not just the mere fact that he didn't win two seasons. There are a couple of issues along with that:

To list it will be:
His teams in both Paas and PP weren't able to protect the lead.
His team arrangement was constantly churning
His player selection for the team wasn't top notch. Let's look at the addition of two Syrian players Jabban and Sahboo. Denizili based on the experience knew PP has two weak points, a finisher forward and in the center of defense. Were Jabban and Shabbo guys who addressed the problem? The difference between likes of Denizli and a Jack like me is that vision, that ability to see things. Was his judgement right? If Shaboo and Jabban weren't the high class, why did he ok their signing? After all this is Denizli's professional judgement that will be questioned later.
He wasn't (IMHO) a good game reader. I have mentioned how Boncic realized the slower PP defense in the Hazfi final and brought Karimi and Papi to adjust. What was Denizli's counter? Was a fast guy like Aloong brough in right away as soon as he saw what is Bonacic onto? In subs and the ability of the team to change tactic on the fly is where a high class coach can shine.

Guess lots of people gonna laugh at me, but GN is an example of a guy who learns very fast from his own mistakes. GN probably is nowhere close to Denizli's level of soccer theoretical knowledge but IMHO is much much faster learner than Denizli. GN doesn't have sacred mottos and change things when it doesn't respond.
Let me give you a couple of examples:
Remember how he got kicked out in that freindly against Stutguart, after that he has changed it seems. Even during the 4-0 loss to Mexcio he remained calm.
It seems he is going to play 4-4-2 against Ghana and in AFC, while he was a high advocate of 3-5-2.

Point of this post isn't to say good things about GN, I dont' want to change this post as a GN vs. Denizli. I merely used him to point out a coach who is much more amenable to change and learns and changes in the process.

As for your example of Ferrari and a shitty car, Denizli must be kicking ass, among the less experienced vatani coaches. If he can't shine among these guys where he will be able to shine. For god sake, Denizili wasn't up against Cappello, Ottmar Hitsfield. He was going againt Gholam Payroovani and Beezhan Zolfagharnasab. So if a Ferrari can't beat a Yugo (former East Germany built car), probably it aint' Ferrari.

In my initial post, I said, there is a difference between a coach who is very good but not successful a year or two. Denizli didn't win two seasons with the Iranian teams. He isn't getting a coaching job in Turkey and for most part is a TV analyst with the CNN in Turkey. Doesn't that indicate something. Aren't we are seeing a trend here? Maybe there isn't one and It is all in my head.