TM-News-Vol. 5

[sirvan]

According to you your aunts did not like soccer so they are not relevant to the discussion.
Two of my aunts and my uncle's wife liked soccer 40+ years ago. Would you like me to share whether they were attending games in the stadium or not?
Currently most Iranian men are in favor of their wives or daughters attending games at stadiums.

Yes please do share, provide pictures if you can.

Also, that's not true, most guys i know are not in favor of their wives and daughters attending men's football matches in stadiums.

Even if women did attend men's football matches, it was probably restricted to TM games where their turnout was low in numbers, definitely not your average league games lad.

Images of nude people where shown in cinemas and Iranians went super mad during the era of Shah, showing us how conservative Iranian society was back then, so watcha' talkin' bout' Willis?

[KC McElroy]

Yes please do share, provide pictures if you can.
Also, that's not true, most guys i know are not in favor of their wives and daughters attending men's football matches in stadiums.

I don't have pictures but all 3 of them have told me about their experiences at stadiums and particularly watching Aziz Asli.
So will you call me a liar or my female relatives?
Also we are not talking about guys you know. We are talking about all Iranian men who according to you will not curse in front of women.

[sirvan]

I don't have pictures but all 3 of them have told me about their experiences at stadiums and particularly watching Aziz Asli.
So will you call me a liar or my female relatives?
Also we are not talking about guys you know. We are talking about all Iranian men who according to you will not curse in front of women.

I believe you, but like i said the turnout must've been low. Can you ask them what games they had attended and if they remember if there where many women (like for example 15% of the total attendance).

I base my findings on interviews (if you will) i have with people, relatives, friends, acquaintances, strangers i talk to. What are your sources of most Iranian men wanting their wives and daughters in stadiums?

I googled for pictures of women attending men's football matches, didn't find anything, i asked my relatives and their friends if they had ever attended a men's football game during the era of Shah, they said no, i got all the answers i needed.

[KC McElroy]

I believe you, but like i said the turnout must've been low. Can you ask them what games they had attended and if they remember if there where many women (like for example 15% of th stadium).

I base my findings on interviews (if you will) i have with people, relatives, friends, acquaintances, strangers i talk to. What are your sources of most Iranian men wanting their wives and daughters in stadiums?

I'm not sure I could ask them as they are scattered around the world (Florida, Toronto, Vancouver) and I doubt they could give me the answers after this many years but I will ask them when I speak to them. My facts are based on personal interviews and polls that I've conducted within Iran which indicate men are ok with their wives and sisters attending games. It makes perfect sense too because as you pointed out Iranian men will not curse in front of women.

[Nokhodi]

The buses and metro's are separate for men and women. Iranian men usually show a lot of restraint in front of women, when there are no women around thy are usually more crude in some cases (like for example during a heated discussion they choose their words wisely when there is a woman around). I barely see Iranian men curse in front of women if at all, in Khuzestan at least.

The metro has women only wagons, but it also has mixed wagons. Similar arrangements could be prepared in stadiums in Iran.

[St_Mark]

Where did i say it is a religious thing? It's a 100% cultural thing. Lad unlike you guys i actually live in Iran. I used to say that women should be allowed in the stadiums as well. But after living here and talking and spending time with the guys (of who most are not religious at all) i noticed they all say the same thing, they don't want women in their stadiums because they want to freely curse and shout and behave like cavemen, and in front of women they can not do that. In Iranian culture we are raised to be respectful in front of women, hence their argument is that women have their own team and that they can attend the matches of the female teams.
How many here have been raised to not curse and always behave as a gentleman in front of women by their Iranian parents, or at least their parents saying such things to them?
Also comparing the Volleyball fan base to the Football fan base, really bro? When was the last time you visited Iran? There is a totally different atmosphere and culture between the football stadiums and Volleyball teams. Iranian men want to shout things like toop tank fesh feshe davare mah ..... they curse alot and they just wont do that in front of women. There is a minority of football fans that also want women in Iranian stadiums, but they are a minority in my experience, so i wonder where your statements of majority of men want women in the stadium is based on?
Also, some here saying it's IR that's keeping women out of stadiums don't know much about Iran and Iranian culture, they're probably born (or have grown up) abroad, or they are after a cultural revolution.
Fifa should respect Iranian culture, women are allowed to go to stadiums and follow the Iranian female teams. And as long as we play football according to the rules of FIFA and don't turn it into handball for example, fifa should butt out of our customs and try to change things according to their customs. Our country, our rules. I reckon that even if the government would allow women to the stadiums, not many would attend, and the ones that did would be bullied by the men and be seen as weirdos. Resulting in eventually again women free football stadium, fifa should know that they can't force their culture and values and customs upon people who have different values. I actually hope they allow women in the stadiums so you can see the result for yourself.
Ps foreign women are allowed to attend the football stadiums of male teams, and that's because they can't understand us. Does the fifa know that?

Where did i say it is a religious thing?

Discrimination against women such as forced hejab, prohibition to attend stadiums was imposed by government on religious ground and not base on cultural issue. Government even wanted to divide University classrooms base on gender. Extremist Religious authorities who are in charge of all aspects of government in Iran imposed those restriction according to their version of Islam and to counter opposite measured taken by previous regime. Both systems resorted to worse kind of social/ cultural engineering to justify their control.
Majority of Iranian are moderate Muslim and against extremist of either side and in various forms objected to this discrimination.
So it is not 100% cultural things as you insist.
Culture is not just social behavior of a particular community but include Ideas and aspirations of people of such communities. Majority of Iranian are against such restriction and blame government for violation their rights.

What is going on in stadiums and bad behavior of many angry fans are not reflection of Iranian culture but exceptions as a result of bad management and wrong policies. Women should be allowed to attend in secure section of stadium. They can decide by themselves if it is suited for them or not. They have to decide not you, me or those old religious authorities.
This particular restriction will be removed and ladies will attend the game sooner than you think.

[PersianLion80]

Sometimes pictures are worth a thousand words...

[Ardalan]

Dar Argentina dar varzeshgahaa nefrine madar o khahar o kir o kos o koon o khoda midone chi mikonan va pore zan o dokhtar ham ast. Hich tori ham nemishe va hame baazi ra tamasha mikonan.

Agar bekhaim ba zehniate nime-arab dar hameye jaam'e amal konim hargez be jai nakhaim resid.

[Sly]

I should have made it more clear.. I'll edit the original.. "When it comes to relations between men and women".

Would you care to elaborate in what way we are more advanced in that department than our neighbors, let alone far more advanced?

[Sly]

Sometimes pictures are worth a thousand words...
[ATTACH]18518[/ATTACH]

Nice pictures but I couldn't help to notice that even during Pahlavi era, women and men tend to sit separately by choice even though they could sit together (look at the second picture). Why is our culture like that? The separation between men and women seems to be rooted in it. I've also noticed this among my Iranian friends. Every time we gather at a friend's place, all the wives and gfs tend to sit and talk together while the guys gather in another corner to talk separately. This happens automatically. I've never noticed that among my European friends.

Anyways, sorry for the non-football discussion.

[Ardalan]

Nice pictures but I couldn't help to notice that even during Pahlavi era, women and men tend to sit separately by choice even though they could sit together (look at the second picture). Why is our culture like that? The separation between men and women seems to be rooted in it. I've also noticed this among my Iranian friends. Every time we gather at a friend's place, all the wives and gfs tend to sit and talk together while the guys gather in another corner to talk separately. This happens automatically. I've never noticed that among my European friends.
Anyways, sorry for the non-football discussion.

Sly jan. In zehniyate joda kardane jensiyathaa barmigarde be zehniyate eslami ke ertebaate miyaane zan va marde "gharibe" raa gonah va sharmaavaar midanad. Eslam dar HAMEYE zaminehaaye zendegie iranihaa az nazare farhangi yek dasti daare, ham az tarighe mostaghim va gheire-mostaghim.

In zehniyat dar farhange masihi ham vojod daashte. AMMA kheili az keshvarhaaye masihi digar az in chizhaa gozashtan chon secular/jahani shodan.
Masalan dar Argentina, Italia, Porteghaal va.. zan o mard ba ham ghati hastand va tafakore "sharm" o "gonah" dige naghshe besyaar kamrangi daare.

[sirvan]

Where did i say it is a religious thing?

Discrimination against women such as forced hejab, prohibition to attend stadiums was imposed by government on religious ground and not base on cultural issue. Government even wanted to divide University classrooms base on gender. Extremist Religious authorities who are in charge of all aspects of government in Iran imposed those restriction according to their version of Islam and to counter opposite measured taken by previous regime. Both systems resorted to worse kind of social/ cultural engineering to justify their control.
Majority of Iranian are moderate Muslim and against extremist of either side and in various forms objected to this discrimination.
So it is not 100% cultural things as you insist.
Culture is not just social behavior of a particular community but include Ideas and aspirations of people of such communities. Majority of Iranian are against such restriction and blame government for violation their rights.

What is going on in stadiums and bad behavior of many angry fans are not reflection of Iranian culture but exceptions as a result of bad management and wrong policies. Women should be allowed to attend in secure section of stadium. They can decide by themselves if it is suited for them or not. They have to decide not you, me or those old religious authorities.
This particular restriction will be removed and ladies will attend the game sooner than you think.

Well we will see about that. I've heard these stories before lad. Fact is that Iran is and always has been a conservative country, to the point that Reza Shah had to force women to take their headscarf off in order to modernise our country, later his son continued the Families policies of modernization, and the rest is history. When a country goes beserk after a scene of nudity in a cinema during the era of Shah, that should tell you enough. IR is not some foreign entity that is forcing the people to live by its religious laws, the religious and cultural values of IR are very much rooted in the Iranian society. Despite the anti IR propaganda you read and hear about in the West.

All these gender base discrimination arguments we hear about and you posted, these are Western standards, norms and values that have been brought to Iran through cultural imperialism. Iranian men are also not allowed to watch games of the female teams in stadiums.

In non of the Islamic Arab countries are females forbidden to attend men's football matches, which just shows you that it's an Iranian cultural thing of not allowing women to men's football games and vice versa.

Bad behaviour of men in stadiums is far worse in Europe than in Iran by the way. Difference is that Iranian men don't want women attending men's games because they feel their women should not be exposed to their bad behaviour (cursing), while Iranian men rarely resort to violence in stadiums unlike Europe.

[sirvan]

Sometimes pictures are worth a thousand words...
[ATTACH]18518[/ATTACH]

These 2 pictures prove exactly my point. You see several women attending what seems to be a taekwondo or karate match, sitting all the way in the back together, while the rest of the small stadium is filled with men, also sitting together.
In the second picture, it is not clear whether they are attending a football game, but let's say for the sake of argument they are. We see a group of 14 women all sitting next to each other, maybe it's a game of a local football team, the football pole/goal looks suspicious and might've been edited and added on the picture (why are the letters kzv edited on the goal pole?).

Anyway, they look like upper middle class Iranians, thriving under the most liberal leader we have had during our modern history, who implemented the most liberal policies we ever witnesses during our modern history, and instead of appreciating his efforts Iranians ousted him.

Face it, Iran is still a conservative country, though now we are alot less conservative than we were during the era of Shah.
Why do you diaspora members want to force your worldviews on the Iranian people? Haven't you learned by now that you can't force Western values on Iranians?

[sirvan]

The metro has women only wagons, but it also has mixed wagons. Similar arrangements could be prepared in stadiums in Iran.

You are right, i agree that that would be a good first step. But i just don't think that Iranian men would be happy with it. Some day this will happen though through the policies of the government or IFF.

[KC McElroy]

Well we will see about that. I've heard these stories before lad. Fact is that Iran is and always has been a conservative country, to the point that Reza Shah had to force women to take their headscarf off in order to modernise our country, later his son continued the Families policies of modernization, and the rest is history. When a country goes beserk after a scene of nudity in a cinema during the era of Shah, that should tell you enough. IR is not some foreign entity that is forcing the people to live by its religious laws, the religious and cultural values of IR are very much rooted in the Iranian society. Despite the anti IR propaganda you read and hear about in the West.
All these gender base discrimination arguments we hear about and you posted, these are Western standards, norms and values that have been brought to Iran through cultural imperialism. Iranian men are also not allowed to watch games of the female teams in stadiums.
In non of the Islamic Arab countries are females forbidden to attend men's football matches, which just shows you that it's an Iranian cultural thing of not allowing women to men's football games and vice versa.
Bad behaviour of men in stadiums is far worse in Europe than in Iran by the way. Difference is that Iranian men don't want women attending men's games because they feel their women should not be exposed to their bad behaviour (cursing), while Iranian men rarely resort to violence in stadiums unlike Europe.

Two takeaways from your post:
1) You are either calling me or my female relatives liars.
2) Either now or when you said Iranian men don't curse in front of women you were balghooring.
The fact still remains that Iranian men are ok with their wives and sisters attending games at the stadium.