(Editorial) Ghotbi Fails Again!

[Keano]

You even have trouble seeing the story behind Perspolis championship that year you mentioned

With all due respect the above highlighted statement ends my arguments with you Mansoor khaan. Last time I had very exact same tone and manner of discussion with you ended in my ban, my next ban will force my permanent departure from PFDC (A force against my will), therefore I'll stop it right here. Please don't lump me with baseless allegations such as "using foul language and/or harsh words etc" as I have never and will never resort to such unacceptable behavior!

Thank you and good luck!

ZZ jaan, fully agreed with everything you just said. respect!

[zzgloo]

Agha Bahman, salam be shoma and must say excellent post and interesting perspective that deserves more time before responding. It is a type that requires deeper discussion as you have invited to be, and I will post it as soon I find sufficient time.

It will be a honor to read your reply .....God bless you.....
Thanks for remembering my name ( 95 % ),as my nickname gives no clue about my real name.....how ever, my name is " Bahram "......which is similar to Bahman.......
I like,people I respect,to know my real name.

[Doctor DOOM]

Of course it's not, I never suggested nor did I define any of the above duties as "your job" I guess overall you're blowing things out of proportion with such dramatic replies and implications DD jaan.
Although on the same token I am wondering how and why you would consider yourself qualified to criticize TM and its coach with countless constructive as well as unnecessary criticism, while disqualifying yourself from constructive "Proposals" suggestions on a discussion board!? Just to avoid further misunderstanding of one another, allow me to clear things up and mention that I hereby do not intend to disqualify you from making relentless TM brickbats, however your often one-sided position and arguments surrounding TM rather baffle me, just like how your cynicism is often aimed at TM coaches (an ongoing trait of yours) while conveniently hindering from discussing much deeper and more fundamental or in other words Roots of our football deficiencies which BTW I am confident someone with your caliber of football knowledge can analyze and pinpoint at ease).
That is a genuine statement, but hard for me to believe!
Amen!

let me address the second point first:
I dont hinder discussion on the deeper, fundamental problems of our football. not doing it now, and never have done it before.
you please make a new thread on that subject matter and we can discuss that within its boundaries. I'm sure many of us are happy to do so.

however, you cannot bring the subject of cultural shortcomings, lack of facilities and foundation in a thread that's supposed to address a particular game or a particular tournament.

this is why I requested everyone to resist bundling issues together (in the vain hope of hiding or covering the faulty individuals among the 100's of other infrastructural needs)

and while you agreed with the above, I see you persist on the same matter again!!
so I'm eagerly awaiting your thread to address the more fundamental issues of our football in general (which have no relation to ghtbi or any other coach we have had)

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2- now, to the first subject as to why I criticize X and Y.
aside from what I always say that I call what I see. as simple and as frank as that.

and the disclaimer that I am not one to GUSH over superficial things but at the same time I have had much praise for teams/games/players/coaches/... who have, imo, shown performances worthy of that praise.

however there is one thing that I thought most long time members here have understood about me by now.
I dont like defensive football. and absolutely despise/hate gutless football.
as simple as that.

I simply cannot accept it. especially in Iran where I believe we still have enough offensive elements and potential in our country to continue our TRADITION of offensive football.

and it is this that pitted me against those coaches who tried to make our natural game into a defensive one. therefore, I resist this transformation and am critical of it.
I still say our natural tendencies in Iran is still offensive football (although in recent years there has been too much emphasis by some coaches to force defensive football down our throats, with the help of their fan-boys).


and thankfully there is enough historical precedence to support my view.
any time we DARED opt for an offensive attitude and play an attacking game, we were rewarded and made news and were the toast of the region or asia even.

lets not forget the renaissance of our football, 1996 asia cup where under MK we had a team that till today is the epitome of bravery, source of much pride and an example of some of our very best results.
and the whole world agreed that iran was indeed the BEST team of that tournament, irrespective of where we stood in the end.

and then we did well in asia cup 2004 too (before branko lost all his guts and spine for the WCQ's and .... the rest is history) and we were cheated out of the final !

then we had the AC2007 games, prior to which GN was conducting the team quite well and showed enough offensive mentality and strategy, which raised everyone's hope.
but lost his nerves during the first round of the games and by quarterfinals, totally lost it and became so cautious (evident in his bad handling of the game from the original line up to some of the most horrendous subbing strategies even seen) that it became our undoing.


even daei, who showed great courage to bring in new & fresh faces to the team, at the time our football was suffering from lack of goal scoring, still did reasonable well (considering the circumstances and aside from a few lajbaazis) until against south korea and then saudis in iran, became too cautious for his own good and let fear over-ride everything else in his decision making and .... the rest is history.



so, yes. I am critical of overtly cautious, defensive football and believe it doesnt suit OUR football.
some kids will come and bring up cases like Italy where such philosophy has got them many trophies. BUT they fail to see we're not Italy.
we dont have much in common with that football.




some other naive chaps may try to get cheeky and bring up the "other" extreme cases where teams play a loose, haphazard and rushed attacking game that leads to their losses.
but nobody's asking for that either.
I believe in Iran, .... even today and with today's resources and players, we still can have a good quality offensive team that gives all the top asian teams a run for their money (and win some of these games also).

but for that, we need coaches who dont lose their lunch at the first instance they meet a decent team.
this is very common in iranian coaches. even the naturally brave and gutsy individuals like ali daei showed it, GN also. let alone ppl like talebi or ... or analysts like ghtbi.

sorry for the long response, but I thought this was already understood by now!
hell, all you needed to know about my philosophy is to read the quote in my signature. I still believe in it.

[Doctor DOOM]

bahram jan, some of the questions and answers were more subjective from an individual's standpoint, which is the writer's right.
but here are some of the answers I have a problem with (and maybe make mansoor's work slightly less):

Q-6:.Did he Bull shit about knowing the Koreans ?
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A-6: .No, he knew them well, and he proved that by beating the S.korea in Seoul,and tieing north and the south ,even in his first 4 months at work....although, his knowledge of Koreans is not sufficient to counter 35 points difference in FIFA ranking.
.................
Q-7:.Did he do a good Job at his friendly games ?
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A-7:. Yes...better than even Branko.
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Q-8:.Did do a good job at west Asian games ?
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A-8 :. yes,...other than an accidental loss vs Kuwait , other games were very acceptable.
.................
Q-9:.Did he do a good job at the Asian Cup ?
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A-9:. YES..he did , thinking other wise,is wishful thinking,and frustration.

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Q-6

if there was any win that shd be qualified as "accidental" it was the friendly one in korea.
if you refer to the thread on the game you'd see how much pressure we were under and also the only goal of the game was a GIFT from a defender's mistake.
we didnt earn that win. korea GIFTED it to us.
there's big difference between "earning the win" and "merely waiting/hoping for an accident to happen"

now, to use that accident as a precedence to prove or underline ghtbi's "familiarity with korea" is a bit too much (we have already addressed how in REALITY ghtbi showed he was alien and unfamiliar to korea's strengths and weaknesses)


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Q7-
this is plain and simple wrong. even if compared to branko.
among the last 4 TM coaches (branko, GN, daei, ghtbi), he has clearly and beyond a shadow of a doubt, had the worst record in friendlies, losing FIVE IN A ROW to the likes of bahrain and china and qatar and ... .

even branko didnt have that.
records clearly prove that GN had the best among all these 4 coaches


**********
Q8-
aside from going into the WAFF with our FULL TEAM (which shows how serious he took those watered-down games), if we PUSH ourselves we can get away with calling a 1-0 loss to that YOUNG & inexperienced kuwait an "accident".
but 2-0?
and the WAY we played that game?
an accident? never.

for game review:

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90068

btw, even at that time I knew that kuwait team is going to be crushed in asia cup. yes, the very same team that had just beaten us 2-0

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Q9 -
beating some of the teams we have ALWAYS gotten the better of and teams that have never defeated us in an official game (uae and north korea) shd not provide a cover for the poor poor quality of performances in asia cup.

even in the game vs. iraq we hardly played acceptable quality football.
vs. nkorea, becoz of nkoreans' destructive style, nothing can be measured.
and against uae was THE ONLY game where we displayed good football. but that was becoz we had already qualified as the first team.

and the moment we met with a decent team, ghtbi crumbled & fell apart like dried biscuit (explained in its thread)

[Mansoor]

Mibakhshin Agha Bahram, I guess peeri o hezar dard. I was tired yesterday afternoon and some how mixed up the names. I will post something tonight.

Btw, the article is posted here too:

https://www.zendegifootball.com

[Mansoor]

One more time, merci agha Bahram. I like to take your first 5 Q&As and move to a bigger picture to present my perspective on Ghotbi’s subject and why I was always drawn into it, and worked so hard to bring up the truth.

Q-1:does Ghotbi deserve to be the head coach of Iranian football ??
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A-1:NO, but, TM ,to this day, has never ,ever, had any coach that deserved the post !
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Q-2: Has Ghotbi had " Ghotbi Media " ?
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A-2: No, very few people initialy endorsed him, but the humonges amount of criticisms against him perfectly proves,he is the lonly sole among the wolves !
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Q-3:. Did he exaggeratted his resume ?
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A-3: .yes, and there is nothing wrong with that....there is not a sole in the world that does not.
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Q-4: .Does he have a coaching liecense ?
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A-4: .Yes, probably among the 10% of coaches in IRAN who does.
.................
Q-5:.Did he promise ,and did not deliver ?

A-5: .yes,but there is nothing wrong with that either...every coach has a unique personality, and his is " American ", and in America,the positive thinking,and seting goals high, and " fake it till you make it ", is the part of the culture.
Infact, this part of his personality was the only reason perspolise won the championship under him......beside...he actualy did deliver alot ,with very little at his disposal.
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Mansoor e aziz......, in the last 4 years, every single post you had, was about ,and against, this " Sharlatan " who has fooled every one....and you expressed your view very forcefuly....and obviously, you feel very strong about it, and has put a lot of thoughts behind it......
People like me, are in no way fools, and do not believe, not even for one moment, Ghotbi deserves to take our beloved TM to higher places......

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In my view, Iran’s national team and anything around it including the coaching of it is a very sensitive subject. Emotions of many Iranians, young and old, inside or outside, is attached to it. And any time we do anything related, from being a football journalist, to be a football fan, TV commentator, analyst, coach, player, etc, we should always keep that in mind.

When it comes to emotions of millions of Iranians, the life of an ordinary person like Ghotbi and how he likes to do “business” becomes next to non-existence. We should not let anyone “use” this sensitive matter to climb up like they do here in American business society. It is interesting that you put it that way and I have always described it that way as well when having private talks with friends about Ghotbi’s mind set. I am very familiar with that approach that you explained. In Ghotbi’s world, it was perfectly normal and “ok” to do what he did as he was raised and trained “the American way”.

But as much as it was “ok” for him and his media to do what he did, it is equally not “ok” for us to let him do that. Emotions of millions of people should not be a step-ladder for a person with no head coaching experience to build resume and track record. In world of football, things should be done in club level and from bottom up. Not with hallow promises, and exaggeration to jump from volunteer coach of a college team to head coach of a national team (with millions passionately following it) within a year or so. Then such exaggeration and circus like show (that his media played) shifts more toward “avam faribi” or “sharlatan bazi”, and then eventual result of it becomes where we are today after multiple failures and millions of drained emotions.

What they did for so long was a combination of “bozorgnamei” or exaggeration, and “mazloom namaei” or playing the victim card, depending on the situation. When needed, promised the world, and when needed used every known fact in the world as excuse. As you very well said, that is perfectly normal “and must do to succeed” in American business society, but not in such sensitive subject. Iran’s football, and Iranians’ emotion is not another American business ....

As for the rest of Q&As from 6 to 9, I think Peyman jaan explained it well and has been discussed many times so I avoid redundancy.

As for “It would be a big disservice to our people, and to our football...to keep the attention of our fans toward Ghotbi,and waist huge amount of efforts in that direction....while letting the real issues stay hidden”,
to me the subject of Ghotbi and what happened in the past few years "IS" a real issue. We should study and learn from these incidents. Without going into detail, it is deep within our culture that people like Ghotbi can come to power "using" our emotions as a tool to gain what they want ....

Many regards for your post and giving me the ground to present my perspective.

[zzgloo]

But as much as it was “ok” for him and his media to do what he did, it is equally not “ok” for us to let him do that. Emotions of millions of people should not be a step-ladder for a person with no head coaching experience to build resume and track record.


As for the rest of Q&As from 6 to 9, I think Peyman jaan explained it well and has been discussed many times so I avoid redundancy.


to me the subject of Ghotbi and what happened in the past few years "IS" a real issue. We should study and learn from these incidents. Without going into detail, it is deep within our culture that people like Ghotbi can come to power "using" our emotions as a tool to gain what they want .....

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Mansoor Jaan.....Thanks for taking time,and explain your views,even though it must have been hard to repeat some of things you has often said before.......
I have selected three part from your post,and want to comment on them....

On The first part....I have no choice but to agree with you....and I admit,Iranian national team, and millions of broken hearts behind it,is not corporate America !!......

On the secound part.......I found those explanations unsatisfactory .

On the third part..........what should be learned from Ghotbi case,is the job of IFF to learn from,among many other things !..........Ghotbi did not do anything out of malice,as it was part of his personality,and only thing he knew..in addition to what he thought Iranians, as football culture, lack,and his advantage over other domestic coaches......
He is gone,and he has added 21 points to our Fifa ranking........
We as a nation are far greater than oweing him anything.....but niether does he have to appologize for anything,as he did his best,and did not twiest any one's arm ...for the job he was given during a desparate time by IFF .
His story is by no means any special, we just did not spend as much effort in other coaches,and find out... who came,got the money, and left.....The only thing special about him,was that " He is the most critisized coach in the history of football in the whole world "............but, to me, that is not due to his level of crime he commited, but because, of unique culture we have with highest level of " Eddeaa ", and least level of acceptance of failiers .
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PS, ...Mansoor jaan, do not get lost again for a long time !,we are a better PFDC with you than without you !
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PS # 2
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MANSOOR JAAN, I like to add something here.........

Do you, as an intelegent consciouse being...see nothing wrong in the whole world is coming down on Ghotbi's head ?....
do n't you see anything wrong,in every body taking a shot at Ghotbi ?........
Do n't you see every body consideres that we should should have won agansit South Korea, to be too much ?
Do n't you see, anything wrong here ?
Do n't you think, Ghotbi not being from IRAN,as a " Gooshte Ghorbani " ? and :Tanha geer avardanesh ?
Do n't see, the big scape goat ?....as everything els would have been great without him ?

has Ghotbi been that bad ?, was he realy the problem ?.......
Do n't you see, the savage part of our culture ?
Would they have critisized him this much ,had he been one of "them" ?
Do you still say,he has great Loby,and Ghotbi Media ?

I am appealing to your consciouse !

Is Ghotbi the only thing wrong you see here ?......
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[Hadi]

couldn't care less about Ghotbi at this point of time.

having said that, if i were to blame someone for why we didnt win the AC, Ghobi would probably get the least blame in my books.

I would blame our federation and players more.

[maij]

Maij jaan,

Thank you for your kind reply and elaboration, however I believe you misunderstood my comment about Daei or his coaching ability etc, or maybe I didn't explain myself eloquently, if that's the case, then my apologies.

In simple wording what I tried to say was that both Daei and Qotbi failed to deliver what they had promised (Qualifying to WC), however do we honestly believe the failure was entirely their (the coaches) shortcoming against our Asian counterparts or a combination of: the entire country being in a deep mess, a totally disastrous IFF (Main culprit), IPL real talent lackluster (Players), and finally and of course TM coaches.

All I am asking is to be fair, let's not just point a finger at the coach while overlooking other flaws and factors causing the flunk. Any logical person with some common sense would address the countless shortcoming of our ill football, there are so many undiagnosed diseases in our football that will take a lot more than just a clever doctor and a well equipped lab as well as a fancy operating room to diagnose and cure the epidemic illnesses of our sick football!

Keano Jan...I did misunderstood your post. I was under the impression that you were justifying Ghotbi by using Daei's single match loss to Saudi Arabia. My apologies.


I see your point about Ghotbi bashing as there are a load of people just jumping on the bandwagon trying to put the blame on him and him alone!! But since you are taking about fairness, then here is my fair point of view :

From the onset of his appointment , there were many Anti-Ghotbi memebers here , each with his own reasoning. Mansoor and myself amongst many others where in this group. There were also pro-Ghotbi people. That is all fair and square and in spirit of free speech , this is quite acceptable.

Ghotbi came and gone ...what did he achieve ? NOTHING.

Is the failure of team Melli the sole responsibility of Ghotbi ? NO

Does Ghotbi share some responsibility in this none achievement ? Hell , YES

Should we stop analyzing or criticizing Ghotbi and his appointment because he is no more ? Definitely NO. Else , how can we ensure that such mistakes are not repeated?

What about this Ghotbi bashing then ? People are free to express their opinions. There are some valid , factual and logical criticism , and there are the ones which are time wasters ...it is up to you to decide which one is worth spending your valuable time to read and respond to.

This is my idea of fairness, Keano jan. It may be different from other fair points , but I understood we all have different thought process and mentality.

[Keano]

People are free to express their opinions. There are some valid , factual and logical criticism , and there are the ones which are time wasters ...it is up to you to decide which one is worth spending your valuable time to read and respond to.

Absolutely, everybody is indeed entitled to their own beliefs, as I mentioned earlier one may agree, while another may disagree. Afterall that's the main purpose of existence for such discussion boards. The key is though to handle the argument in a civilized manner, avoiding profanity or power abuse!

Maij jaan, all your points more or less well taken!

[maij]

Maij jaan, all your points more or less well taken!

Keano Jan , More ..ish ke fahmidim , Less ..is Yani chi ???

[Keano]

LoOoOoOoL I knew you'd say something like that

Yani in ke Less...esh biashtare LOL JK

You've always been a fair critic of any football-related subject for that matter.

Moklese agha Maij!

[Ali Chicago]

I agree with the main point of thread Ghotbi's head caoching in the TM wasn't a sucess. However there is more than what meets the eyes.

1- In WC2010 he took over at the end when we were in dire situation already. Mansoor khan never mentions who was the coach when Iran lost to KSA in Tehran, tied to UAE and got only 5 point/6 points with few games left. Still Ghotbi took over and he is to be blamed about failure to WC2010 it is Fair, but his failuer is partial.

2-In AFC AC2011, Iran lost to Korea, we didn't flop like KSA. IRan played 4 games. 2 games were good (Iraq, UAE) and tow games were poor (N, S Korea). Mansoor Khan forgets to talk about the defensive organizational improvement of the TM. Improved fitness of the team and many other issues.

We in PFDC can say ro beleive what we want, but there are outside realities. This TM cut its connection to the past (2006 era), plays simple organized football and has the good foundation for the future. Ghotbi needs to get credit for some of this (not all the blames).


I again say we can beleive what we want but let's check the realities. As an example many of the members in F+ bashed HajSafi in particular. Yesterday an Spanish sport paper had an article about him (Kaiser Amir has a thread about it in the main forum). This is how at times realities in our football is turned upside down by fans. Ghotbi got a job in Japan, Japanees must see something in the man.

One last request, I beg for one last time, to his critics to publish the so called names and connections behind his so called MAFIA. In the interest of truth and public knowledge please give us names, relationship, connections, and clear examples of how his (so called) MAFIA impacted our football. I stress again, I want names, and specific examples. I followed Mansoor Khan's site as well and to best of my recollection I never saw a name or a specific example.

[Mansoor]

Very special thanks to agha Majid to enlighten the discussion with his perspective.

Agha Bahram, many thanks again. Obviously, the second part, in particular the Q&A 6-9 can be viewed and discussed differently, and frankly I thought it would be a redundancy to once again discuss it deeply, as it is more of a opinion-dependent than fact-dependent. To be respectful, once again I present my opinion and perspective to provide direct respond to your points. In summary:

6- I don't believe his past experience in Korea helped him when facing Korea, as such a remark in itself is a very bizarre claim by Ghotbi. Working at one point and time with a national team is not a "necessary and sufficient" condition to put a team together to defeat it in another time. In today's football, all such inside information are available to analysts and well prepared teams. Example? How Koreans had analyzed our team and had all of our weaknesses and strengths covered. It is a good coaching, or good team of coaching that is the "necessary" condition, and even that some time is not sufficient as many other factors are involved for sufficiency. So such claim within itself is what you questioned to be "bs" in world of professional football.

7- Friendly games should not be even a point of reference. Many factors are involved in friendly matches that does not allow correct assessment; the official games do.

8,9- and as I have explained in the article, at the end of the day, he failed in WAFF and Asian Cup. Viewing it as "good job" is pure opinion which I respect but disagree.

In regard to "ps 2" part at the end of your post: Agha Bahram, I have been very frustrated with "Ghotbi show" for so long, and how the fans were initially reacting to his circus like show. And no matter how much I tried to inform them of the truth, they pointed the finger instead at me. There were a few in this very forum that with "ghiafeh hagh be janeb" accused me of many things, from having some hidden agenda to being like a Islamic police(!?), and opened threads and posts to question my integrity and why I don’t write the subjects that interests them (!?) and so much Ghotbi instead. Some even went further and resorted to foul language and thug-like behavior to call me names, in the news page, via private messages and emails, and other football forums.

And now that his true face has been revealed, and his multiple failures leaves no room for him but to run away, do you really think my conscious would lead me to feel bad for him? Especially after all the "bozorognamaei and mazloom namaei" that made him emperor and land him a job to eventually break the hearts of millions of Iranians? I am afraid, I have to say no. I take special pride on doing what I did for so long and I am satisfied to finally see many fans "can hear me" ....

Kheili mokhlesim Agha Bahram and your kind words humbles me as I have mutual respect for you and your presence here as well.

[zzgloo]

There are several kinds of " Ghotbi bashers "..........and frankly, Mansoor's kind, is the only kind that I respect !!...His criticisms have to do with the way IFF selected him, based on very little qualification and based on illigitimate loby.........,and he said that before all was about to happen,
And,I how ever, do not see any value in the other kinds of " Bashings ",that are based on His performance or promises,or style...............because Ghotbi's results are realy not that bad when compared with likes of Ali daei or Ghalenoee,.....and there is good answer for every and each such criticisms.

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There are two major issues,that No one among " critics of Ghotbi " ( This is a better word for " Ghotbi bashers"), wants to talk about.

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1- We have ,seriously, fallen behind South Korea and japan.
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2-The Culture of " Eddeaa ",is scrambling to justify its faliers .

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