Iran - Jordan (Azadi)

[leviathan]

Martin, can you please show on the attached 4-2-3-1 formation which player was in each position for second half?
Frankly i am not sure who was playing where in the 4-3-3 formation on first half.(and how it got transformed to 4-2-3-1)
GK

RD CD CD LD

CDM CDM

RAM CAM LAM

ST

MADANCHI
ANDRANIK
SHOJAEI(out at 65' majidi came in)
HAJI SAFI EHSAN
NEKONAM JAVAD
KHALATBARI (in second half, nouri out)
NOURI MOHAMMAD
ANSARIFARD
FARHAD MAJIDI
Pejman nouri (out at 46' khalatbari in)
Hedari (out at 87' kaebi in)

is this player position correct? Nouri is a defender when he was subed with khalatbari who moved to his defence position?

--------------------rahmati--------------------
--------------Aghili---nostrati---------------
-heydari/kaebi--------------------------------hajsafi-
-----------teymourian-----nekounam-----------
- khalatbari -------------majidi----------- -madanchi
------------------ansarifard-------------------

[Martin-Reza]

^ Yes, that is the lineup after Shojaei went out. Now we could debate if it wasn't already a 4-4-2. One could consider Majidi's position (or Shojaei's after the break) as supporting striker role or as OM role. In first case it would be a 4-4-2 square, in second case a 4-2-3-1. The differences are often minimal, so I wonder why some are so obsessed with the system issue.

In first half it was sth like (Nouri, who is no pure defender, but an allrounder, playing LCM):

----------------------Rahmati------------------
Heydari-------Aghili---------Nosrati----Hajsafi
---------------------Nekounam-----------------
-----------Teymourian--------Nouri------------
----Shojaei------------------------Madanchi---
---------------------Ansarifard------------------

Then, with Khalatbari replacing Nouri, it became

----------------------Rahmati------------------
Heydari-------Aghili---------Nosrati----Hajsafi
-------------Teymourian---Nekounam---------
--Khalatbari---------Shojaei-------Madanchi--
---------------------Ansarifard------------------

and then Majidi simply replaced Shojaei.

Now one could also say it was a 4-4-2 with

----------------------Rahmati------------------
Heydari-------Aghili---------Nosrati----Hajsafi
-------------Teymourian---Nekounam---------
--Khalatbari------------------------Madanchi--
-----------------Majidi--------------------------
-------------------------Ansarifard--------------

Same when Shojaei was still playing, also his position could have been seen as some kind of trequartista position rather than an OM position.

[leviathan]

Thank you for posting the first half line up/formation.

Now assuming it was 4-2-3-1 and not 4-4-2.

shojaei is in center attacking midfield position? (CAM )

Isn't CAM (shojaei/Majidi) also supposed to be a play maker?

something that nekounam was doing instead of him.

[yashar_fasihnia]

^ heh.

1- you are imminently correct to speak for yourself

2- forgive me if I discard your words that are uttered by a ( to quote you ) "nobody" and listen to a professional expert like hajrezaei who clearly said 4-2-3-1 is not working for our team

1)definitely, as is the case with u! hence i dont pass any specific comments as proven facts, unlike u...

2)funny enough, whenever any of these critics say something which is close but not exactly urs, u bring it up but many times but when they disagree with u, as is the case with ACTUALY COACHES who u disagree with, u tend to forget (mayelli kohan appointed as coach and u took credit for it although u were just advocating for him, not prediciting it would be him. or milan macala took bahrain team to the qualifiers against new zealand and again u were publicly boasting around but when they got knocked out by a new zealand who has to compete with teams like fiji islans and new caledonia and STILL LOSES, u disappeared!)

besides, as far as i recall and i have watched almost every TM game and its post interview, every navad show and every varzesh az negah 2 show, hajerezaei has never mentioned something like "4-2-3-1 has been a failure in iranian football". if he has, please tell me which game was it?
he might have disagreed with certain arrangements at certain points of time due to certain circumstances for only certain teams, but i have never heard him say something like 4-2-3-1 has been a failure in iranian football.
u want to tell me when sepahan was knocking out saudi arabian, korean and japanese teams with 4-2-3-1 formation, or when perspolis under ghotbi was dominating the league with 4-2-3-1, hajrezaei who is a tablo perspolisi would come and say after the games, "4-2-3-1 has been a failure for iranian football??" or the same case with iran beating bosnia and drawing with croatia.... haj rezaei unlike most of us here, is a very fair, composed man who is not influenced by propaganda and other peoples views and has a much more deeper view and understanding of iranian football situation. hence u will never hear comments like 4-2-3-1 is a failure in iranian football and we should stop using it or watever... he is a professional!

[Martin-Reza]

Thank you for posting the first half line up/formation.

Now assuming it was 4-2-3-1 and not 4-4-2.

shojaei is in center attacking midfield position? (CAM )

Isn't CAM (shojaei/Majidi) also supposed to be a play maker?

something that nekounam was doing instead of him.

Basically yes. But of course the DMs also always are kind of playmakers.

On the other hand we must not forget that in the 4-2-3-1 there must be regular support for the sole striker in the box by the 3 behind him, so often the ACM also has to fill a supporting striker role.

[Doctor DOOM]

my dear yashar,

there have been SEVERAL occasions where Mr. Hajrezaei has stated that the 4-2-3-1 formation doesnt suit our TM and we dont have the right players for it. and on so many occasions when we needed a win in the game, he's clearly said this formation will/does (depending on the time of interview) not answer our needs and so on.
the latest in the series is the very same pre-game talk he had at jam-e-jam 2 before the very jordan game.

-------------

as for MK, LOL ... I "took credit" for MK's appointment or Macala's success?
are you are u'r using the right words of "taking credit"?

I said it was a good idea MK was appointed based on his fondness of attacking football which was WHAT WE NEEDED AT THAT TIME (3 games and at least 6 points needed). it's a different matter that what happened to MK by ss fans' chants ( and MK's irrational response ) and also ghotbi's dallals' influence finally did the job against MK.


ghotbi's gutless approach vs Korea proved it right that we needed an attacking strategy, not a cautious one. (now I may take credit on this issue that saw many advocate a cautious approach for the NK game and ppl said even a draw would be enough, despite many of us warning of postponing the inevitable need for a win would make matters 10 times more difficult at SKorea

as for macala, I think my claims of him being a very successful & worthy coach has been justified with what he's accomplished at oman and bahrain. so I still stand by my words and support of him.

btw, bahrain (given their meager human resources compared to that of Iran's) even reaching the intercontinental-WCQ's is a great achievement.

hope it clarified matters for you

[yashar_fasihnia]

well peyman,

i honestly dont recall hajrezaei making such a claim that 4-2-3-1 is not suitable for TM and has proven to be a total failure but i guess there is no way this can be proven unless someone can post those videos.
nevertheless, like i mentioned earlier, even those experts have their own debates over such claims, so its very inappropriate to make such a claim in such an extreme tone, specially when u dont have much stats to support ur argument either.

as for taking credit for mayelli kohan and macala, wasnt it u who posted in football forum something along the lines of " i recall someone advocating for milan macala, i wonder who it was..." and again "i wonder who that person was who was talking about mayelli kohan being the next coach for TM"
i think many people even replied to ur mayelli kohan comment and reminded u that u had only pushed for his appointment, not predicted his appointment.
remember??

i am too lazy to go and look for those 2 specific posts but anyways, point being, there are many arguments that can be placed regarding the pros of 4-2-3-1 even for iranian football specially when it comes to proof in both national team level and club level that refuting them with limited stats (there is no other way of proving in football) can not be taken with too much certainity.

so i will never accept a claim like 4-2-3-1 has repeatedly proven to be a failure in iranian football, nor will i accept it if u replace 4-2-3-1 with 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 or 4-3-3 or watever. we have had plenty of good results and performances with those formations during different eras of TM and to make an extreme claim like the one u did cant be taken seriously by me. if others are willing to accept a claim that "4-2-3-1 has repeatedly proven to be a failure or iranian football" thats their prerogative but i can only laugh at such claims, no matter who makes them.

be sure that after ghotbi also, other coaches both at club and national level will continue to use this same formation and slowly slowly, the number of different coaches from different backgrounds and different mentalities using the same formation will probably create some change in people's general perception of football althought not complete!

[Doctor DOOM]

^ those experts have clearly stated their reasons based on the type of players we have employed and the kind we have in Iran. the most common one is the style of strikers needed for this formation which we dont have. as well as other issues like lack of a playmaker in the team.

----------
on "taking credit"
hahahahaha.
read those once sentences more.
I'm sure you'll get it .... eventually.
in the meantime I recommend a bit of old satirical english lit .


hopefully you dont think I meant me, merely writing some posts in some internet forum have effected and influenced the decision making at a football federation is a country w regards to selection of a nat'l coach.
.... or do you?

[Martin-Reza]

so i will never accept a claim like 4-2-3-1 has repeatedly proven to be a failure in iranian football, nor will i accept it if u replace 4-2-3-1 with 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 or 4-3-3 or watever. we have had plenty of good results and performances with those formations during different eras of TM and to make an extreme claim like the one u did cant be taken seriously by me. if others are willing to accept a claim that "4-2-3-1 has repeatedly proven to be a failure or iranian football" thats their prerogative but i can only laugh at such claims, no matter who makes them.

be sure that after ghotbi also, other coaches both at club and national level will continue to use this same formation and slowly slowly, the number of different coaches from different backgrounds and different mentalities using the same formation will probably create some change in people's general perception of football althought not complete!

Very well said.

[TrueBlue]

This is quite amazing... as I have mentioned before, Ghotbi's procedure for picking players' positions on the field is very simple (hence very efficient!):

1- Put all players in a "Deeeg" aka "Pot"
2- Ye do se ta hame chanim bezanim
3- Use a fairly decent sized "Abkesh" to pick 11 players out of the "Deeeeg".
Warning: Make sure the process is as close to being random as possible, otherwise it loses its validity and credibility
4- Put a blindfold over your eyes
5- Empty the "Abkesh" on the field
6- Cross fingers and hope for the best

Result: A truly amazing, mind blowing arrangement!

Purpose: Confuse the sh*t out of your opponent, yourself, your team and the fans. This way they will be too awe-struck to even say a word of critique.

Natije giriye footbali: Baba eyval! even the most advanced computer analysis programs would have core-dumped after seeing such ingenuity!

Natijr giriye footbali, version 2.0: bah bah, chah chah! afarin sad afarin hezaro seesad afarin baraye professor ghotbi va mohandes dastiyar holandiye.

Khatme kalam: cant wait to see the formation/player selection for next match. whos gonna bet that the "Deeeg" and "Abkesh" system is going to put Khalatbari in goal and Rahmati as LD (I mean common, Hajsafi didnt quite fit the position right? I guess the deeg and abkesh will learn from their mistakes right?) !!!???

[maij]

This is quite amazing... as I have mentioned before, Ghotbi's procedure for picking players' positions on the field is very simple (hence very efficient!):

1- Put all players in a "Deeeg" aka "Pot"
2- Ye do se ta hame chanim bezanim
3- Use a fairly decent sized "Abkesh" to pick 11 players out of the "Deeeeg".
Warning: Make sure the process is as close to being random as possible, otherwise it loses its validity and credibility
4- Put a blindfold over your eyes
5- Empty the "Abkesh" on the field
6- Cross fingers and hope for the best

Result: A truly amazing, mind blowing arrangement!

Purpose: Confuse the sh*t out of your opponent, yourself, your team and the fans. This way they will be too awe-struck to even say a word of critique.

Natije giriye footbali: Baba eyval! even the most advanced computer analysis programs would have core-dumped after seeing such ingenuity!

Natijr giriye footbali, version 2.0: bah bah, chah chah! afarin sad afarin hezaro seesad afarin baraye professor ghotbi va mohandes dastiyar holandiye.

Khatme kalam: cant wait to see the formation/player selection for next match. whos gonna bet that the "Deeeg" and "Abkesh" system is going to put Khalatbari in goal and Rahmati as LD (I mean common, Hajsafi didnt quite fit the position right? I guess the deeg and abkesh will learn from their mistakes right?) !!!???

hehheheee...Very creative...

......You know what though....I think Random selection tactics is quite a favorite style of Ghotbi's management.

[leviathan]

Based on what I have learnt so far the 4-2-3-1 formation is a defensive formation which is quite flexible and can turn into both offensive or defensive pattern .In offensive pattern the two front side attacking midfielders joint the attack(RAM and LAM)4-3-3
And in defensive pattern they pull back helping defense creating a 4-5-1 formation.
This formation suites teams that play possession and focuses on control of the midfield, stopping attacks at mid filed. Teams playing this formation are likely not to apply too much speed, keeping the game at lower tempo. Passing has to be accurate and shorter to keep possession of the ball.

The lone striker needs to be strong and fast to hold the ball up as his midfielders join him in attack. He has a difficult job as he could often get caught in offside position which is improper use of this position in this formation. The idea is not for him to do a sole counter attack, but to control the ball (dribble if he has too)and wait for wings to arrive.
Due to the fact that this is inherently a possession and control formation, if the two attacking side midfields play more defensively it will result in less goals or results.
I think this is a difficult formation that requires players filling each defensive and attacking midfield, center attacking midfield and the sole striker position properly or there will be very little goals ,a draw or even a loss!

In future games I will focus and see who is selected for these critical 5 mid filed positions and the sole striker. Also if possession is easily lost after 2 or 3 passes, it won’t be prudent for this team to adopt this formation. Long passes from defense all the way to opponent side are also improper in this formation.

[xoraster]

Based on what I have learnt so far the 4-2-3-1 formation is a defensive formation which is quite flexible and can turn into both offensive or defensive pattern .In offensive pattern the two front side attacking midfielders joint the attack(RAM and LAM)4-3-3
And in defensive pattern they pull back helping defense creating a 4-5-1 formation.
This formation suites teams that play possession and focuses on control of the midfield, stopping attacks at mid filed. Teams playing this formation are likely not to apply too much speed, keeping the game at lower tempo. Passing has to be accurate and shorter to keep possession of the ball.

The lone striker needs to be strong and fast to hold the ball up as his midfielders join him in attack. He has a difficult job as he could often get caught in offside position which is improper use of this position in this formation. The idea is not for him to do a sole counter attack, but to control the ball (dribble if he has too)and wait for wings to arrive.
Due to the fact that this is inherently a possession and control formation, if the two attacking side midfields play more defensively it will result in less goals or results.
I think this is a difficult formation that requires players filling each defensive and attacking midfield, center attacking midfield and the sole striker position properly or there will be very little goals ,a draw or even a loss!

[TrueBlue]

hehheheee...Very creative...

......You know what though....I think Random selection tactics is quite a favorite style of Ghotbi's management.

Exactly my point maij jan, you know why? Because computers are extremely good at generating randomness!!! coincidence or consipiracy theory??? peyda konid porteghal foroosh ra

[yashar_fasihnia]

Based on what I have learnt so far the 4-2-3-1 formation is a defensive formation which is quite flexible and can turn into both offensive or defensive pattern .In offensive pattern the two front side attacking midfielders joint the attack(RAM and LAM)4-3-3
And in defensive pattern they pull back helping defense creating a 4-5-1 formation.
This formation suites teams that play possession and focuses on control of the midfield, stopping attacks at mid filed. Teams playing this formation are likely not to apply too much speed, keeping the game at lower tempo. Passing has to be accurate and shorter to keep possession of the ball.

The lone striker needs to be strong and fast to hold the ball up as his midfielders join him in attack. He has a difficult job as he could often get caught in offside position which is improper use of this position in this formation. The idea is not for him to do a sole counter attack, but to control the ball (dribble if he has too)and wait for wings to arrive.
Due to the fact that this is inherently a possession and control formation, if the two attacking side midfields play more defensively it will result in less goals or results.
I think this is a difficult formation that requires players filling each defensive and attacking midfield, center attacking midfield and the sole striker position properly or there will be very little goals ,a draw or even a loss!

In future games I will focus and see who is selected for these critical 5 mid filed positions and the sole striker. Also if possession is easily lost after 2 or 3 passes, it won’t be prudent for this team to adopt this formation. Long passes from defense all the way to opponent side are also improper in this formation.

in attack, the 2 side midfielders move forward to support the striker and the 2 full backs move forward as 2 midfielders supporting the 2 side mdifielders in moving forward. moreover, one of the 2 DMs can move a bit more upfront as support while the other DM usually stays back and hardly moves forward.
a formation like this one has the ability to increase the tempo (from the sides) or slow down the game by playing possession with 5 midfielders and 4 defenders behind to slow it down even more with passing.
long ball passes from defense to offense are not usually of much help anyways unless the opponent is playing too much in front and is leaving a good space between their GK and their defense line for strikers like borhani and majidi to break the offside trap and it usually doesnt work well on an international level because only IPL defense is so amateurish to constantly make these mistakes and hence, mr aghili so used to long passes for emad reza. it doesnt matter wat formation u play, but if u dont have a tall target striker who can win most aerial balls, long balls wont help, but atleast in 4-2-3-1, that forward can head the ball back to one of the 5 midfielders or even if he loses it, atleast there are 5 midfielders who can try and win the lose ball which the defenders clear.

one very good point about the 4-2-3-1 is that the full backs are given more freedom and authority to move froward and participate in attacks using 1-2 combinations with either of the 2 DMs on their side, or the midfielder in front of them. they can have over lap movements or just move along the line and then dribble and cut in suddenly to take a shot on goal or make a side pass to one of the other midfielders for a shot on goal, or again a 1-2 passing combo and enter the penalty area to create havoc and confusion in the opponents defense line.

and for this to happen, the defensive midfielders are needed to fill up the void they create, either on the side, or the void that the central defenders create when the central defenders move to the sides to cover up the empty space of the fulback while he is still in front.

if we have only 1 DM, our full backs cant have a lot of freedom moving forward because then our only DM has to try and cover the voids created by him or the central defender as mentioned above and by doing so, we wont have a defensive midfielder in the middle to try and intercept the opponents attacks and we are exposing our defense line to the opponent.