The upcoming IRAN - SAUDI game

[Mr.Good]

^
I would like to vote on that poll

[Doctor DOOM]

I didnt get the "make a poll" bit.
exactly what poll am I supposed to make?

coz as far as I remember, there is a poll addressing a direct comparison between 2 players GN and haydari. one who gets free passes and waltzes in on every squad, while the other has been overlooked time and time again. and the only time he was called, he was dropped at the last moment .... in favor of the former!!!
and I dont think we'd need a mathematician to explain the 80% vs 20% results in favor of one of those.

[KasraKhan]

I'm glad to see that Im not the only one that thinks G. Rezaei is over-rated.

On the football forum, they treat him like he's the 2nd coming of Mahdavikia.

After the UAE WCQ in Dubai, after the 1-1 draw, I made a thread about his 1v1 miss in the 94th minute to give us the win. Now we can see how important those 2 points were. If he's good he can finish a simple 1v1, no?

[Martin-Reza]

I didnt get the "make a poll" bit.
exactly what poll am I supposed to make?

coz as far as I remember, there is a poll addressing a direct comparison between 2 players GN and haydari. one who gets free passes and waltzes in on every squad, while the other has been overlooked time and time again. and the only time he was called, he was dropped at the last moment .... in favor of the former!!!
and I dont think we'd need a mathematician to explain the 80% vs 20% results in favor of one of those.

Well, you could do a poll Daei is wrong vs. Dr. Doom is wrong...

And assuming none of us could line up a team better than Daei, the 80%-20% don't really speak against Daei.

[Doctor DOOM]

Well, you could do a poll Daei is wrong vs. Dr. Doom is wrong...

aaah. THAT poll.
ok.
you wait here ... right here ( dont go anywhere ), I'll "make" it and bring it.

dont. go. anywhere.

-------------

In the meanwhile, you may want to look at a couple of ISSUES and TOPICS that could indirectly help you on this poll:

Issue 1 -
Daei's insistence on sadeghi, and using him wherever possible, even if it never fit sadeghi's style and nature of football. and how they all turned out.
vs.
DD's stance on the use of sadeghi

Result- finally, after much time wasted, Mr. Daei reaching the conclusion that sadeghi, no matter where you put him, is NOT TM material.

-----------

Issure 2 -
Daei's insistence on using S zareh at LB
vs
DD's stance .

Result - Eventually, after much time wasted, Mr. Daei reaching the conclusion that zareh , no matter how many times you try him there, is NOT LB material.



On both occasions, DD's happy to see daei, thru' his "keen and observant" eyes, "discover" or accept the truth and eventually make the correct decisions. But DD also hopes daei would exercise that keen eye of his A BIT QUICKER ( which means he shd put aside illogical lajbaazi & stubbornness ) and reach such POSITIVE DECISIONS SOONER .



"ouch!"

[yashar_fasihnia]

in that case, DOCTOR DOOM FOR TM!!!


but in all seriousness, this is a case of one person (daei) having his opinion and actually testing his opinion (and revealing his mistakes and right choices) on the field, against another person (doctor doom) having his opinion, but his opinion never tested and hence, never a chance to reavel his mistakes/right decisions

wats worse, doctor doom has had the opportunity to criticize ali daei's decision, but ali daei has never had the chance to even comment on doctor doom's opinions.

[Martin-Reza]

^ not to mention buying a ticket for a football match being the closest DD ever got to professional football...

-------------

In the meanwhile, you may want to look at a couple of ISSUES and TOPICS that could indirectly help you on this poll:

Issue 1 -
Daei's insistence on sadeghi, and using him wherever possible, even if it never fit sadeghi's style and nature of football. and how they all turned out.
vs.
DD's stance on the use of sadeghi

Result- finally, after much time wasted, Mr. Daei reaching the conclusion that sadeghi, no matter where you put him, is NOT TM material.

-----------

Issure 2 -
Daei's insistence on using S zareh at LB
vs
DD's stance .

Result - Eventually, after much time wasted, Mr. Daei reaching the conclusion that zareh , no matter how many times you try him there, is NOT LB material.



On both occasions, DD's happy to see daei, thru' his "keen and observant" eyes, "discover" or accept the truth and eventually make the correct decisions. But DD also hopes daei would exercise that keen eye of his A BIT QUICKER ( which means he shd put aside illogical lajbaazi & stubbornness ) and reach such POSITIVE DECISIONS SOONER .

"ouch!"

Well, that is 2 players you disliked removed from the starting lineup or the squad. Not that you ever in advance presented the solution Daei found. You just talked about removal, without bringing up any acceptable replacement, which made absolutely no sense. I didn't hear the name Ashjari from you before Daei introduced him, your suggestions were Feshangchi and other lame ducks.

As if you made an amazing discovery by finding out LB was our weakest position. Everybody knew that, there just was no other than the one-eyed among the blind until Ashjari established himself as Zob Ahan's leftback and they became very successful. Now, in my opinion, we have another one-eyed, who's only advantage to Zare is being leftfooted, and even if he might be slightly better, LB still by far is our weakest position.

About Sadeghi, his exlcusion also was caused by or caused a system change. Players like Khalatbari or Gholamnejad now took his place, something you don't agree on either. Again, like before, you just complained about a weakness, but failed to come up with an acceptable solution.

We all now know we have problems in the attack. That I now claim Daei needs to do sth upfront (without predicting a really logical solution) and he sooner or later will do that, I can't claim I was 2 steps ahead of Daei.

This way of thinking you reveal is highly worrying. It's amazing that many still take that way of arguing seriously, especially in F+.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ Actually, I cant remember ever paying for the tickets.
They're usually bought for me.


The second part of ur post resembles more the thrashing of a drowning man who knows he is going down below, than an argument.


at each period of criticism, not only the weaknesses and mistakes were pointed out, but alternatives HAVE BEEN suggested along with it. at each period there were players who DID demonstrate better capabilities than the players targeted and were proposed.
most recent example, the Haydari - gnjd issue.

so forgive me if I just brush the above post aside as mere "thrashing & flailing of arms".... or as we say in farsi "khod ra be dar o deevar zadan"!


third, and more seriously, I never claimed I know more than a coach.
But at the same time, I base a lot on LOGIC and am definitely IMPARTIAL when it comes to TM's personnel. and unlike some ppl, have my priorities straight; TEAM MELLI. Period.
Not Mr. X or , Mr. Y .
that gives my VIEWS an edge over ppl who ARE biased and play favorites, as well as those who are lajbaaz and irrationally stubborn.

[Martin-Reza]

The second part of ur post resembles more the thrashing of a drowning man who knows he is going down below, than an argument.

Considering I'm talking to someone believing he could make many better decisions than any pro coaching team Team Melli ever had, I am not surprised about this view.

If your knowledge would be half as big as your ego, you maybe even would be right once by chance .

[Doctor DOOM]

^ I did NOT say I can make MANY better decisions".
I believe based on the evidence ( namely the games and the players' capabilities and form at each time period for those discussions ) almost anyone can see there are some choices that are wrong ( which happens to the best coaches ), but STAY WRONG with irrational persistence on that bad decision ( which doesnt happen often ).

case in point, the 2 examples above.

now, if that gets translated into "I know best" in ur head, then "I" can not be responsible.



reminds me of another period where some of you got ur panties in a bunch over others warning of branko's stupid over-reliance on legionnaires and a fixed 6-7 players , no matter how useless the friendly game.
... when ppl warned about "not using the alternatives and not thinking about an eventual day that these FIXED STARS may not perform or get injured or .. "
remember those days in 2005?
well, nobody ever had claimed the know more than the coach or they have a crystal ball or ... . but what was warned, DID HAPPEN!
and that eventuality was only LOGICAL and to be expected.

and that was the time many of you put the good of an INDIVIDUAL over the good of the TEAM's and defended him & his decisions ... very much like how you're doing now. the same excuses, the same accusations, the same diversions, the same .... etc !



one would think ppl would learn NOT TO defend any INDIVIDUAL with this ferocity lest things turn bad for the TEAM!

[Martin-Reza]

^ I did NOT say I can make MANY better decisions".

Maybe it would be time for you to explicitely admit that you would barely be able to make any better decision and that you would never be able to do the job Daei is doing. I think once you said that, it will be easier for you to concentrate more on criticizing the output like performances and results than criticizing and analyzing the coaching decisions like tactics all the time as if you had decades of coaching experience.

Anyway, I don't agree with the Branko analysis (surprise). His WC plans of course were shattered by the lacking fitness of Karimi, Zandi and Mahdavikia after injuries and further injuries and suspensions especially for the Angola game, but there is no sense in trading better coordination of your first team for better coordination of your probably chanceless second squad ahead of a World Cup and secondly since all the injured keyplayers recovered in time but "just" lacked form, it would have been unlogic to exclude them anyway. And the players on TM's bench weren't quite unexperienced newbies, so I don't think the critisizm fits.

I explained this very short now, I hope the point is clear. I could explain in more detail, but I want to avoid that the posts are getting out of proportion.

Anyway, I got a request via PM and would like to put it here:

Hi, Im kind of new to PFDC so i cant post in the F+ forum. But on my behalf i would like u to ask DD if he were the TM coach, would he pick ppl like urself (Martin Reza) if u were the top fwd available to the team, based on how much u guys keep going back and forth at each other?

[Doctor DOOM]

hehehe ... I've already said I'm not a coach. that's daei's job, not mine.

but that doesnt mean if I see some deficiencies I wont talk about them.
sorry buddy, the world is not black or white. there's a lot of gray there too.


as for the criticizing matter, I criticize issues that need to be discussed and have shown to be problematic ones at TM. and it is all in the direction of finding why they happened and if there are ways to minimize or solve them .... to what end? to make a better TM, that would have a better chance in the world.

now, if you dont like ppl discussing the problems, then you may have to look elsewhere.

========

on branko issue.
no need to go thru' a long winded discussion. All I need is yet another proverb that has proven to be correct thru'out the ages:
NEVER PUT ALL UR EGGS IN ONE BASKET

that ought to explain that particular ( among many others ) issue.

===================

and on the last request: ( I usually dont do requests, but this time, I'll make an exception )

the answer is definitely YES .. if martin was a good forward, and in form, I would NEVER allow personal squabbles ( hell, we're not enemies here. just talking from 2 different standpoints ) get in the way of the TEAM.
afterall isnt it what I'm always saying? Personal matters shd take a back seat to TM matters.


an example for this is a couple of years back I nominated Faraz for F+ membership while he was almost ALWAYS arguing with me and was always on the opposite side of the issues.
why?
becoz he had all the criteria to be a F+ member IRRESPECTIVE of where we stand on diff issues.
u can ask him urself in fact.


and lastly, why is asghar sending the PM to you?
he could have asked me directly
somehow I cant fathom a guy named "asghar" being shy !! LOL

[Martin-Reza]

Well, I guess asghar wanted to participate in the discussion, not just ask you directly in private.

Anyway, back to topic (if anyone still remembers the topic here).

Saudi just finished their friendly match against Iraq in KSA (0-0).

With Karshenas' help I could figure out what the lineup most probably was.

Below also my older post, so we see how the team changed.

They seem to plan a 4-5-1 for Tehran.

------------------------------Mansour Al Naje-------------------------------------
Abdullah Shayf------Redha Tukar-----Majed Al Marshadi---Taiseer Al Jassam
Mohammad Nami----Ahmad Ateef---Mohammad Noor--Mohammad Shalhoob
-------------------------Abdoh Autif-----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------Nawaf Hazzazi-----------------------------

I don't know too much about the Saudi team, but here's what I know:

Goalkeeper: They changed the keeper right after Iran match in which nr. 12 Mansour Al Naje had been in goal and nr. 1 Waleed Ali was on the bench, ever since then it is the other way round.

Defense: Their left fullback and vice-captain Hussain Suleimani (nr. 13) is the only foreign based player they have, playing in Switzerland. Against Iran I didn't find him particulary impressive. The right fullback, nr. 2 Abdullah Shuhail, afterwards becoming nr. 7 against DPR, looked far more dangerous and came forward very often. It was also him who assisted the goal. In central defense Osama Hawsawi (nr. 4) seems to be fixed, Redha Tukar (nr. 3) is a physically very strong player and seems to be the other fixed player. He only played in two games, including Iran, but was not in the roster in the other two games at all. In those matches, Majed Al Marshadi played (nr. 5), who sat on the bench when Tukar played. Tukar was suspended in one of the games, so I assume he was out injured in the other one and usually builds the heart of the defense with Osama Hawsawi.

Midfield: The midfield is pretty strong, but they lineup was changed very much from the first game. I know Abdoh Autef and Ahmed Ateef, who are actually brothers, but interestingly spelled differently in English by FIFA. They both can play in central midfield or on the wing. Also of course Al Shloub is a sizzling leftwinger. Khaled Aziz was the defensive midfielder against Iran, he played all other matches but the last, but he was suspended there. Interestingly both Otaif (that's how Wikipedia spells them) brothers and Shloub didn't start against DPR Korea, only Abdoh Otaif was subbed in late - the other two players weren't even in the roster. Hard to say if they all lost their spot or if there were other reason to exclude them (injuries?). Meanwhile veteran midfielder Mohammed Noor was called back for the DPR match.

Strikers: Saudi Arabia have 3 major strikers:
- Yasser Al Qahtani, who moer is a treqaurtista in my eyes, but is undoubtedly a quality player who is well in positioning, finishing, dribbling, passing and even is an areal threat. Fortunately, if I counted correctly, he will be suspended for the Iran match after picking up his second yellow of the competition against DPR Korea.
- Malek Mouath Hawsawi: This guy is extremely fast. Nothing else, just fast in my opinion. He tends to waste big chances, something like a Borhani in my eyes. Started as midfielder and was moved upfront, and although he lacks the finishing touch, he simply is hard to stop and therefore regulary scores.
- Saad Al Harthi: He is more the classic center forward with good goal instinct. He already showed that against us, scoring the goal in Riyadh.
Both Qahtani and Mouath had been missing in Riyadh due to injuries, the first came on as sub but wasn't in good shape. Beside the three they tried Fizal Bin Sultan and youngster Naif Hazazi, but both don't have the quality of the other three.

Overall I'd say the lineup of KSA would usually be sth like:
---------------------------Waleed Ali---------------------------
Shuhail-----------Hawsawi------------Tukar------------Suleimani
Autef-------------Aziz-------------Noor/Atef-------------Shloub
---------------------Qahtani-----Mouath/Harthi-----------------

I'm just not sure about the midfield, which changed a lot in the four games.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ thanks for the info.

HOW did they play?
How did they attack?
how was their defense holding up?
how were their wingers ?
who was their playmaker in the center?
did iraqis take long rangers ... and how were the keeper's reactions?

strong points & weak points?


-----------

where did mouath play? wing or center? if in the wing, which side ?
coz if he's that fast, we better have someone who can keep up with him.

and how was harthi ON THE GROUND?
skillful dribbler?
coz aghili & hosseini ( the most probable duo ) can cover the aerial battles. but on the ground, .... ?


was Noor feeding these guys?
was he man-marked?
he would be nekunam's man in the game. can he lose nekunam ?


looks like our RIGHT side is going to be under pressure, then.
is kaabi strong enough to defend AND attack? ( and I'm talking about STRENGTH, not speed )
I doubt we can just leave the defense and ask him to attack mainly. so shd he be replaced with someone with a bit more balance in defense/offense?

[Martin-Reza]

I started watching in second half. The quality wasn't good, and I wasn't watching too concentrated, so I can't say much.

In attack and on the wings they are very speedy, espcially the rightback came forward repeatedly. They are missing a lot of strikers, so they lacked good finishing.

The defense looked a bit shaky, to say the least.

You might have mixed up the lineups (new one and old one in the quote) though, since neither Mouath nor Harthi played. They aren't even invited for Iran (Mouath is injured, no idea about Harthi, probably as well).

You can find the squad here:

http://www.persianfootball.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1805&Itemid=2