Learning from Spain

[gol_kuchik]

http://www.the-afc.com/eng/articles/viewArticle.jsp_168165650.html

I think more than any other country this applies to Iran, for several
reasons:

1-Korea/Japan already have their style set in J-League etc.
2-IPL is by far the most prolific in West Asia, yet we have a total
chaos as far as having a systemic methodology for the country and
it shows.
3-We take coaches from various countries like Brazil and East European
and West and Turkey and that's real Aush-E-Shole-Qhalamkar
4-With the pilars of our current TM in Spain, and hopefully a bright prospect
of more talented Iranians following the footsteps of Shojai and Nekou, it
would seem natural to promote their style in Iran as well for better
coherency.

[Doctor DOOM]

I absolutely agree on the need for uniformity.
especially in the style of football practiced by the clubs and youth teams.
which makes TM a mere progression in standards for those youngsters who start from omid teams, to pro clubs and then to TM.

but is it possible?
I dont think so.
why?
MONEY & budget.
today our clubs and managers are not only driven by "who'd best serve as coach for my club?", but also "whom can we AFFORD to pay?"
when you have that restriction, then you're forced to compromise and bring in coaches who arent exactly in line with the general consensus of our football.

I dont think anyone would disagree that our style of football is very different from those of eastern european football. but we seem to be flooded with those coaches. why? coz they're cheap.
and that's why our clubs bring in all ...vic's instead of south american or western european ones who could align our football along one singular style.

-------------------------

But the same spanish football has sound fundamentals and infrstctr.
so apart from the style of football which can be emulated by us, I dont see any more parallels between Iran and Spain.
I'd say if we want to emulate someone in building our league and methodology, we shd follow JAPAN of 1990's.
whatever they did, we must do.
step by step.
they did it right. they took their time , but built a sound foundation for their football and within a decade they reaped its benefits.
Japan has been at the top of asia from the beginning of 2000's simply becoz in 1990's they built and planned well.
this is what we shd emulate. spain? a bit too far for us.

But hamid is right in another issue as well.
we have a higher quality ingredient ( talent and skillful youth ) that japan never had/has. so if we do what japan did, and add this ingredient to it, we'll come out even better than what japan ever imagined.

--------------------------

I think we can learn and adapt the spanish style of football and find it easier to emulate than the german's , becoz like us, the spanish football has double dose of technical and ball mastery as one of its main ingredients. this wasnt and still isnt so in germany.
german football is a highly tactical, quick and immensely organized version of football where everything from fundamentals to the players' attitude and discipline are well organized. and we have decades to go to reach such level of organization and infrastructure.
spanish football, on the other hand, is greatly influenced by the south american technical flair aside from the european tactical fundamentals. that's why our players can flourish better in this football.

shojaei wouldnt survive a full match in english football.
simply becoz they just woulnt give him the time to do his shtick. before he gets the ball, they'll be all over him. ( that's why spanish football has not fared that well against the british football style of brute-force and break neck pace in recent years)

[gol_kuchik]

So I wonder, do you think Japan can be a good role model for us or Turkey?

[yashar_fasihnia]

one thing i would like to point out is that, just like iranians have an advantage over japanese cos of our skills, but at the same time, japanese players have and advantage over us in terms of being more united and less lazy than us iranians in general.

thats in their nature and within their culture. for a country that has hardly any natural resources, hardwork, committment and discipline has helped them a lot in reaching where they are today in the world (ofcourse, this wouldnt have been enough had it not been for all the american investments in japan after world war 2).


although turkey is considered part of europe, atleast by FIFA, i think their culture and the whole country itself is more similar to us than japan.
religion isnt a big obstacle over there how it is in iran, but besides that, i think iran and turkey share a lot of similarities in many ways.

when it comes to football, they too have a few big clubs, loads of passionate fans from different classes of society, majority of our players and majority of their players share common football attributes (ofcourse, their players are better developed than ours), there is considerable corruption at higher levels and their discipline and planning isnt the best either, if im not mistaken.

they have a lot of originally turkist players who are citizens of different european countries, mainly germany (just like iranians, even the country germany is common between iran and turkey) and have started to recruit them in their team when they realize their own players cant fulfill the necessary requirements for the national team.

however, the fact that their players and their clubs get to compete at the highest level of international football, get to expose themselves at a high level to the rest of the world and are able to play against the biggest clubs of the world and sometimes even attract big players all gives a huge advantage to turkey compared to us.

we are a very special country and are quite frankly, uniqe and isolated in asia.
if u notice, the arabs(both persian gulf countries and non persian gulf arab countries) have their own group and unity, the south asians(india, pakistan, bangladesh, etc) have their own group, the central asians which consists of the ex Soviet Union countries, the east asians (japan, china, korea) and south east asian countries (malaysia, thailand, indonesia, etc) all have a kind of unity or group.
iran is the only isolated one, along with afghanistan, who doesnt even have a football league!
i think this is one main reason why our lobby isnt so strong in AFC.

so its hard for us to find someone as an exact role model, like how u would expect the persian gulf countries to take saudi arabia as their role model.

[gol_kuchik]

Yashar aziz, are you saying Turkey is or is not a proper example?
It is true they are trying to squeeze themselves in E.U but as you
pointed out culturally we are not a whole lot different. Obviously
when we want to pick an example we should go for someone more
successful than us with close similarity and in that regard Turkey has
a lot to teach us.

I agree that Japan has very different culture which is heavily grouop/team
oriented, but wanted to get more explanation from Doctor.

I am coming away from this article by AFC, that:

1-We should program our clubs from U14 all the way up in the same way,
because most of our players and obviously our culture has certain shared
qualities and we need to identify and maximize our strength and minimize
our collective weaknesses.

2-This means, pretty much all the coaches we hire/train must understand
and be willing to adopt it. In another word, there would be a concise
national plan and vision for the type of football we play and whoever comes
in must be familiar with it an train players on that basis and leave their own
preferences/style that does not fit this mold behind the door.

3-Another upshot of this would be on choosing of tactics like a
formation, most clubs should use the same so the transition to TM for their
players be smooth.

Say if we adopted 4-2-3-1/4-4-2 all the clubs would use that and its few
variations instead of a fundamentally different formation like 3-5-2

[Doctor DOOM]

So I wonder, do you think Japan can be a good role model for us or Turkey?

Hamid jan, I'm less familiar with the mechanics of turkey's revival and emergence than japan's.
I have watched japan's movement year after year from those early 1990's days or late 80's when the thought of facing japan wouldnt put much worry or fear into you, and you'd know with more certainty than not that we'd come out on tops.

I know they started with injection of money into their infrstctr and basic football set up, followed by invitation of good foreign coaches and older stars/players to elevate their quality of club football and show their natives how the pros apply the game. they are inherently well disciplined and organized as a people which helped them in laying down a sound foundation for their professionalism in football.
and from then on, it has been a steady rise in japan's quality and strengths, culminating in their 3 asia cup wins and consecutive WC qualifications.


turkey? I havent followed but I guess hey must have done something right to be among the better B sides in europe.

-----------


as yashar correctly pointed out, the turk expats' return and input brought a lot of european influence into their football and did elevate it. turkey's also playing its football in europe and with constant interaction with the big guns, one slowly starts to adopt their positive and strengths too ( iran isnt in such a situation ).

I dont know what turkey did in terms of uniformity, but I doubt they faced our kind of financial constraints and corrupt management style. we are still faced with one major obstacle, which is money. as long as that is not solved, I dont think we can hope for a well organized, uniform and parallel football that is portrayed in the article !

-------------

as for the style comparisons, I must say we dont HAVE TO be a copy of japan ... and frankly I doubt we'd ever be. as you said, they are a very homogenized and united sort of ppl and collective teamwork takes priority in their football.
we are different in that aspect. we're more into individualistic football ... or hell, sports ( volleyball is the only TEAM sport we've managed to make a name for ourselves in. everything else that has brought glory on int'l stage has been individualistic sports; wrestling, teakwondo, weight-lifting, ... )

But that doesnt mean we cant make a success of it. With a little organization and proper training from youth, our youngsters can learn to be team-oriented while retaining their individualistic flair as well.
there's no rule that says you can be either team oriented or individualistic in football. if we're trained well at an early age, we'll learn to adopt both aspects of the game.

there are quite a few countries that have successfully combined team oriented football with their individualistic flair; brazil, argentina, portugal, spain, ... .
you dont have to be an ultra-organized ( almost to the point of being mechanical ) like germany, japan, england, ...

[zzgloo]

gol kochik aziz......excellent thread..I must say....one that is most foundemental.................................

Finding a doctorin for our football,is not something we can just " choose & Pick ".....it is more to it !!
Although, some countries such as The saudi's seem to have done that, and picked a system, ( South American system ), and have spent so much money to stay through with that system..........yet, with us, Iran, things will not work , or can not work with massive investements toward a system....but, it will be, as it should, more natural, and more gradual, path toward what our football takes us......

1- Our legioner involvements in Euroup , as well as, our nation's facination with Europe, will set tone, for our football... as our football will be more European than South American.
2-Eastern Europeans Coaches , historicaly,have worked easier,and meshed better with our football.
3-Our currant system,what ever it is, is unlike arabs and unlike orientlas,and unlike central Asians.
......................................
We realy do not have to have a system that is a copy of some where..as we can have our unique system.....I believe, the most logical direction our football will head toward...In My opinion , will be " Both "....." Turkish ", AND " East European ".
A=Turkish, in a sence, our league will develope like turkish league, with many legioners, and incorporateing more foeign players, and higher domestic salaries,and more inter-relation with Europe.........
And:
B=East European,in a sence, our football will niether be based on individual techniques and south america flouency......nor will it be , total strategies and top speed of German-Anglo ....nor any other European style such as Italian,etc..as they proven themseleves to foerign to our culture......but, Our football will most likely be closer to , less Fancy, yet solid style, of Eastern Europeans, which it has proven itself to be copatable with our culture the most.

PS, as a matter of opinion,...I believe, we already have a ,Eastern European system, which we do not know about !!!

[Doctor DOOM]

Coordination between TM and club football was initially proposed during Ciro as he wanted a direct progression from club to nat'l team where the players werent confused with too many different and contradictory tactics as they moved between the club and TM.

But it never realized. simply becoz our youth coaches and club coaches werent of the same standard, and werent exactly experts in modern tactics/formations .... etc.

to make sure you build it up from the ground up, you gotta get good , modern and pro coaches for the youth teams, so the lad gets used to that sort of football from young age. then when he moves to a pro club, his club coach also continues that modern philosophy which makes the job of nat'l team coach 10 times harder in selection , but 20 times more pleasurable as he'd be left with an embarrassment of riches at his disposal.

what do we need to get here? I'd say primarily MONEY, followed closely by a UNITED PROFESSIONAL attitude by all strata of our football.

that's why I said we can copy japan in their set up of their football ( but not the STYLE of how they play their football ).

====================

now, lets assume we do have the money and the discipline to become united and professional.
after correcting all our shortcomings in infrstrctr , I'd say we first ought to decide which style of football best suits us.
then start hiring coaches with similar style for our youth and club football.
and then start a oversight committee of pro club coaches, league association & managers, IFF and nat'l team leadership that follow a set agenda with various short term and long term planning.

[Doctor DOOM]

bahram jan, trying to inject an east european style on us is NOT going to work.
we've already seen that.
you cant push a square peg into a round hole. as it never worked.
what you'll get is simply us falling in between the two stools ! neither here nor there ! ... exactly where we are right now !
we've lost that attacking & free scoring nature of the old, and havent become the solid, reliable defensive one of east europe either.

the first thing for everyone to do is to recognize our NATURAL style of football. dont try to change the nature of it. what you can do is nurture and advance that nature into a professional form.

to change the nature of football will take decades and generations ... to see if it really works.
and why the east-european style? we see british and german football which was never based on individualistic flair slowly trying to inject that flair into their football. they are trying to move away from a mechanical football.
hell, the best example is RUSSIA. the russia that once epitomized east european dogged and mechanical football turned into a team that exuded flair and artistry and out-dutched the dutch in euro.

they are all trying to move in that direction. why shd we go against the trend? we, who HAVE that flair ?
this is going backwards rather than forwards.

==============

why do I think it's possible?
simple.
if an old dog can learn new tricks, I'm sure the pups will do even better.
compare karimi of 7-8 years back with the guy who played at bayern.
full of flair and highly individualistic to the point of disgust. so much that I used to call him "tormoz dasti" with him hindering the team's flow and movement whenever he got the ball , dribbling uselessly and unnecessarily. he couldnt be botherd about defending or god forbid, tackling an opponent !

in bayern he learnt discipline and teamwork. after bayern, we saw the new karimi, who passes more and better. who doesnt dribbles as much ( looks like shojaei's caught the bug, though !!! ). defends very well. is a team player.

if an un-interested and older player can learn new tricks, then our 18-19 year olds can certainly do better and BECOME different dogs in terms of being disciplined and organized while retaining their NATURE.

[yashar_fasihnia]

Yashar aziz, are you saying Turkey is or is not a proper example?

wat i was trying to say is that turkey is one of the closest examples, but even they have some situations different from us.

we can pick one or two things from them, one or two things from east asians, and one or two things from west asians, but there will be some differences we will have to handle on our own and other countries dont have.

overall, a proper example

[gol_kuchik]

Coordination between TM and club football was initially proposed during Ciro as he wanted a direct progression from club to nat'l team where the players werent confused with too many different and contradictory tactics as they moved between the club and TM.

But it never realized. simply becoz our youth coaches and club coaches werent of the same standard, and werent exactly experts in modern tactics/formations .... etc.
.....

DD Jan, Ciors design should be retried. I think the reason it failed was
because there was not enough commitment from a leadership organization
(i.e IFF). Some of the reasons you list (like lack of good coaches) are
in fact more reason to have uniform standards/systems that way a coach
does not have to start from scratch, rather he has to implement pre-designed
system, which should make his job easier.

To tell you the truth and looking at the technique of almost all of ourl players,
there are some fundamental skills that they simply have not learned. I
looked at the shot Shojai took yesterday and unfortunately have seen the
same type of weak shot from: Badamaki, Vahid, Zare, Madanchi, Kazemian,
Rezai, ..... you get the picture.

If all coaches were instructed to focus on this national weakness and
the basics were thought to the coaches ..... Same thing with some of
the primary marking and defending techniques.

At any rate, it seems to me having a uniform approach should make it all more
cost effective.


Yashar Jan I agree with Turkey as the closest possible system that resembles
us, of course we are all unqiue but in this case more similarities than
differences. Back to DD, if we had the work ethics of Japanese or their
organization we won't be having this discussion.

Bahram jan, I did not say this was simple. The very first phase would be
to have a complete analysis of our football culture and this will certainly
take a good research and examination before a plan can be drawn up. There
is a lot about Turkeys league I dont know, and takes pros to examine.

But from results both at National as well as club level those are certainly
excellent results our football can aim to achieve given that 8 years ago
Turkey was nothing like what we see today in football.

[Doctor DOOM]

DD Jan, Ciro's design should be retried. I think the reason it failed was
because there was not enough commitment from a leadership organization
(i.e IFF).

why retired?
the idea was right.
and as you said, the implementation was a failure. that doesnt mean the idea shd be discarded. Just the elements and personnel ought to be changed to make the idea work.


=============

yashar is correct.
we can pick a few good pointers from each country and not aim to exactly copy everything verbatim.

I just liked the systematic approach of the japanese in laying down proper foundation and going about their task in clear step by step fashion.
yes, they are more oraganized, dedicated with greater work ethics, than us. But I say if we want to make a thing of this and hope for it to be a permanent stepping stone, we HAVE TO emulate that work ethic and dedication also.

otherwise, with the usual half-arse Iranian shoddy job, it will be just a temporary flash and jump and after a while it comes back down or crumbles or ... !
is it possible to emulate that dedication and organization?
yes. almost anything is possible. we're not talking about traveling to Jupiter.
but is it probable?
given Iran and its characteristics, I doubt it !

[gol_kuchik]

why retired?
the idea was right.
and as you said, the implementation was a failure. that doesnt mean the idea shd be discarded. Just the elements and personnel ought to be changed to make the idea work.


=============

yashar is correct.
we can pick a few good pointers from each country and not aim to exactly copy everything verbatim.

I just liked the systematic approach of the japanese in laying down proper foundation and going about their task in clear step by step fashion.
yes, they are more oraganized, dedicated with greater work ethics, than us. But I say if we want to make a thing of this and hope for it to be a permanent stepping stone, we HAVE TO emulate that work ethic and dedication also.

otherwise, with the usual half-arse Iranian shoddy job, it will be just a temporary flash and jump and after a while it comes back down or crumbles or ... !
is it possible to emulate that dedication and organization?
yes. almost anything is possible. we're not talking about traveling to Jupiter.
but is it probable?
given Iran and its characteristics, I doubt it !

I wrote -retried- your read -retired- we are in full agreement Doc.

[zzgloo]

bahram jan, trying to inject an east european style on us is NOT going to work.
we've already seen that.
you cant push a square peg into a round hole. as it never worked.
what you'll get is simply us falling in between the two stools ! neither here nor there ! ... exactly where we are right now !
we've lost that attacking & free scoring nature of the old, and havent become the solid, reliable defensive one of east europe either.

Payman E Aziz.....
Which country's football are you talking about ? Iran ?
You have seen eastern European style not work in Iran ?
We lost attacking & free scoring nature of the old ?
eastern Europeans play only defensive ?
.....................I disagree with all of the above, as we have never ever had a attacking free style, nor eastern Europeans " NEW " football is Defensive,nor has any style worked in Iran any better than eastern Europeans.
As I said in my previouse post, we are and can be unique...but, if we want to judge what we have been closest to through out the years...and what style our footballers have shown comfortable in ,has been eastern European type football.....what els ? have been playing like England ? or Germany ? or South Americans ?.....

[Doctor DOOM]

I wrote -retried- your read -retired- we are in full agreement Doc.

oops . sorry.
I officially blame it on "losing eye sight".
note to self: one of these days I gotta check my eyes

sorry, mate.

yes, it SHD be retried as it not only made sense, it wasnt such a difficult feat to accomplish either. yes, it needs effort in coordination between many parties, but imminently possible.

afterall most of our coaches attend classes like those tutorials by foreign coaching instructors. so getting them in a group and laying down basic guidelines and instructions wouldnt be that difficult.