The Daei conspiracy, getting to the facts [Part 3] - MEHDI MAHDAVIKIA

[Martin-Reza]

Thanks for the inputs Majeed and DD. Just 2 backup questions on DD:

- 1) is not generally meant already as comparisons to the answers to question 3) (the TM competitors), generally, where lie his strength and where lie his weaknesses. I really don't think it is necessary to only name strength here, not even C. Ronaldo or Cannavaro have no weaknesses, so I would ask you to come with a bit more balanced general list if possible.

- 2) You start by saying Mahdavikia can "play in these roles" but don't define roles. Each of the systems have 11 roles, which roles exactly can he play in each system? This also helps identifying his competitors in the next question.

Generally the points are well explained though, I will wait for some more inputs and then sum up the first conclusions.

[Doctor DOOM]

Now, to MY conclusions.

Let me start by saying we are not comparing kia with Zambrota or scweinsteiger here. We’re comparing him with sadeghi, shojaei and ando, who have been used by daei in kia’s post. Ok? Key issue here.

…. Unless you know schweinsteiger is taking up Iranian citizenship . then we have a good, valid discussion.

1) The overall qualities and weaknesses of Mahdavikia

I think kia can still send far BETTER crosses , and far MORE crosses with higher ACCURACY than any of his replacements.
he adds WIDTH to the team which is very important if we want to get some points in a game and not defend 100% of the time.
testament to all the above points is his number of assists
I’d even add his shooting is still BETTER than the other 3.
I also would say kia, at least participates in defense, unlike shojaei.

So in this category, kia comes out waaayyy ahead of the rest.

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2) The positions Mahdavikia can play and possible roles in the usual tactical systems of TM (4-4-2 diamond, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 flat)

I’d say Kia CAN certainly play in these roles. He is immensely experienced at the highest level of football . he is also a very versatile player and has been used in multiple positions. I am confident he can do this quite easily.

Whereas I have great doubts how a def-mid can play this role when his passing is wayward, he does not know how to go past his mark, his shooting is sub par, he cant cross very well , he cant ….. ( I don’t think I need to continue anymore ).

In this category, again, kia comes on top.
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3) His competitors in TM for the different posts

you rightfully said “in YOUR eyes”. That’s right.
Coz in MY eyes, his competition in the post is mainly KAZEMIAN, who isn’t invited either.
Kaabi is best used as RB where he is the best we have. Shojaei is NOT a flank player and needs space. Gholamnejad isn’t as good as kaabi, let alone be pushed to another post ! rezaei is ok, but then again, when we compare the FREQUNECY and accuracy of crosses and quality of defensive duties, he comes up short to kia. Same with maydavoodi.

So in this category, kia comes on top of the rest also.
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4) His current form and club situation

oh, I don’t know. Against Madrid he did quite well.
And do everyone a favor and don’t talk about bench-warming, coz we have to sound the hypocrisy alert here ( ando? Shojaei? Ahmadi? …. )
Irrelevant issue as his competition at Frankfurt is NOT AN IRANIAN

This category is discarded as irrelevant, without prejudice
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5) What are the issues between Mahdavikia and Daei leading Daei to exclude him? (here sources would be great if available)

we all have read PLENTY of stuff on this. We also know each fellow’s “character” and behavioral pattern , especially daei’s ( that’s why in courts they have “character witness” which is a valid method of establishing a trend or pattern ).
It doesn’t take a genius to put 2 and 2 together.

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6) Are you convinced the door is closed for Mahdavikia or is there a way back for him? Also interesting: would Kia being invited again for some upcoming games be a proof for the allegations towards Daei being wrong?

No. I’m not convinced.
I’m actually hoping daei would ACKNOWLEDGE the deficiencies of the right flank and bring in a specialist player. Notice I didn’t say KIA. If he brings in a player as good as kia ( saaaayyy kazemian for example ) , I’m satisfied.

coz it's NOT about kia or X or Y.
it's about getting the strongest TM possible with least number of deficiencies and lacks.


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the problem is most of you ppl who put kia down, are comparing him to either an ideal right midfielder or to the kia of 3 years back.
NOT to the players daei has replaced him with.
I dont know how many times this shd be repeated !!

if you guys have an ideal right midfielder, then bring him in and we're all happy.
if you have a way of bringing the kia of 2005 back, then bring him in.
I am least bothered about "what KIA used to do before".
I want to see "what ando/shojaei/sadeghi CAN do right NOW .. in their present form ( another key issue here )

but dont talk about HALF the issue and act as if the other half is not relevant.
WHO is being favored in kia's absence?
the burden of proof is on daei's choices to prove they can ... and if we are fair we shd admit they have failed to do that.

[Martin-Reza]

Exactly, these are my conclusions, I will add the core of all different conclusions to the first thread. I'd just ask you trying to keep the initial structure so we have an organized discussion.

Please include the discussion about the qualities of alternatives under point 3 etc. So we have clear points and not some long post switching from one issue to the next and mixing stuff.

[Doctor DOOM]

dear martin,
those are YOUR conclusions, that is, MR's conclusions, based on YOUR VIEWS and YOUR THEORIES .... and that does not necessarily mean it tallies with reality or truth. .... not necessarily.
( for example, I'd claim & conclude kia CAN definitely deliver the tasks of RCM in a diamond 442, better than any of those players mentioned )

before I state MY conclusions I will say one thing:

in anyone's case, be it kia, or karimi, or .... one of the first things that we shd do is see if the replacement is delivering the duties of the post.

if we are going to throw away a BMW, in favor of another car, we'd better bring in a car that is at least ON PAR with a BMW.... if not better. AT LEAST ON PAR.
dont bring in a peezoori peykaan and say : the BMW wasnt fine and I'm replacing it!!!
that just doesnt work.

and yes, ando, sadeghi and shojaei are all peykaans WHEN USED IN THAT POSITION. just becoz they are good in THEIR positions, doesnt mean they'll be good in any other. otherwise I propose putting rahmati ( GK ) as striker, coz he's a good footballer !

I'm sure ando is very good at def-mid and runs hard and disrupts opponents' game and intercepts and .... . but these are NOT the required tasks of a right flank player.... who needs a high level of accuracy in crossing, frequent crossing, good dribbling and .... a whole lot of OTHER & DIFFERENT characteristics than a def-mid.

same thing with shojaei, who needs space to do his tricks. he is a good ( not our best, IMO ) central and attacking mid. to push him to one side and take away space on his right side, means cutting his efficacy. he also doesnt defend and is slow in tackling and general defensive tasks ... which is another characteristic of the right mid ( whatever formation ).

sadeghi?
at the moment, he isnt even a "jiyaan" for me to get into comparisons.


so before we put down kia, lets first see in whose favor we're removing him.

if we were comparing kia with kazemian, then that would be an interesting topic coz kazemian is another BMW replacing our old BMW.
not these fellows here.
so to keep away a good player on whatever c0ckamamie excuse, will not work, especially when the replacements arent half as good as him.

[maij]

1) The overall qualities and weaknesses of Mahdavikia

Pro: Speed or pace and crossing abilities plus experience.
Cons : in both department he has displayed inferior qualities to what he used to be. I am particularly concerned with his ineffective crosses.
For years , Kia has been ultra cautious about getting injured in Team Melli matches, perhaps affecting his performance a wee bit.


2) The positions Mahdavikia can play and possible roles in the usual tactical systems of TM (4-4-2 diamond, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 flat)

I guess Kia is flexible in any system.


3) His competitors in TM for the different posts.

Many , depending on the system and game plan. The best so far is Gholamreza Rezaei , who has the flexibility to play on both the flanks and has a good hustling defending ability.



4) His current form and club situation

Nothing to brag about. He is benched and seems not to be in the main starting 11 list.

5) What are the issues between Mahdavikia and Daei leading Daei to exclude him? (here sources would be great if available)

I don't think there is any. I know Kia personally ( not that that makes a great difference) and chatted with him , travelled with him on many occasions. I don't think he is the type who takes sides on issues. Very soft spoken , repectable person.


6) Are you convinced the door is closed for Mahdavikia or is there a way back for him? Also interesting: would Kia being invited again for some upcoming games be a proof for the allegations towards Daei being wrong?


The doors should NOT be closed to any player , let alone one in the stature of Mahdavikia. BUT , Kia like the rest must prove their value and convince or force the coach to select him. Public demand is out of question , this is football NOT the US presidency elections.

7) All other issues you would like to adress about Kia's exclusion from TM you feel are not covered by the six earlier questions, or for general conclusions or summaries of your points.

Players need to have competetion and feel that their posts are not secured and is performance related. Kia needs to prove his commitment by better performance

[Martin-Reza]

My first views on this issues:

1) The overall qualities and weaknesses of Mahdavikia

I think speed has been a major quality of Kia but it has declined in recent years, so it's not anymore. I would say his crossing, indirect setpieces, overview, quick decision making and vast experience are his main advantages. To his weaknesses I would add shooting and scoring in general, defensive one-on-ones also that he basically can only be used on the right line, not really on the left nor in a more central position.

2) The positions Mahdavikia can play and possible roles in the usual tactical systems of TM (4-4-2 diamond, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 flat)

In a 4-4-2 diamond only the rightback position and maybe the RCM, but both not ideally suiting his strength and weaknesses, especially the latter. In a 4-2-3-1 he can play rightback and ideally the right forward position, in a 4-4-2 rightback and right midfield which probably his strongest position.

3) His competitors in TM for the different posts

In my eyes he has direct and indirect competitors. For the RM position ot would be Kaebi, Shojaei and even Gholamnejad, for RB Kaebi and Gholamnejad, for RFW in the 4-2-3-1 Shojaei, Kaebi, Rezaei, Meydavoudi. I will come back to comparisons of strength and weaknesses later.

4) His current form and club situation5) What are the issues between Mahdavikia and Daei leading Daei to exclude him? (here sources would be great if available)

I am not aware of any.

6) Are you convinced the door is closed for Mahdavikia or is there a way back for him? Also interesting: would Kia being invited again for some upcoming games be a proof for the allegations towards Daei being wrong?

I think the door is open. If he improves his form and standing in Frankfurt or any other club he might go to in winter as well as more width in midfield being wanted against other opponents Daei won't hesitate to call him back.

7) All other issues you would like to adress about Kia's exclusion from TM you feel are not covered by the six earlier questions, or for general conclusions or summaries of your points.

For me there is nothing fishy about his exclusion. I would have nothing against him in TM, but his inclusion is no must currently. I generally think giving younger players a chance is correct when the veteran player is not in top shape and the alternatives can compete on the level needed for this WCQ.

[Martin-Reza]

Introduction

As you've probably seen we voted on who is left out of TM due to personal issues, and the top votes went to Mahdavikia. Out of 19 people who voted so far, no less than 13 F+ers are convinced something is fishy about his exclusion. Without the four voters who do not believe in any conspiracy at all, only two voters convinced of personal feelings being involved in TM selections don't think Mahdavikia is a victim. So let's start with our former TM captain.

Goals

We all have meanwhile learned that convincing others barely works, nor should the target be "winning" this discussion. Yet we can shed some light on several issues surrounding Kia's absence and maybe get rid of some misunderstandings helping to improve future discussions on Kia or the personal feelings of Daei.
I ask everyone who likes to participate to share his view on the following questions and issues, please note that making your point as precisely as possible and keep the postings as short as possible will help the discussion as at some point it will get impossible to go through numerous very lengthy posts.
I will try to constantly update this first post with the main points in the replies to this thread so that in the end we have all major points summed up in the conclusions section here.

Questions

Please elaborate on:

1) The overall qualities and weaknesses of Mahdavikia

2) The positions Mahdavikia can play and possible roles in the usual tactical systems of TM (4-4-2 diamond, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 flat)

3) His competitors in TM for the different posts - also comparisons between Kia and the competitors are appreciated here

4) His current form and club situation

5) What are the issues between Mahdavikia and Daei leading Daei to exclude him? (here sources would be great if available)

6) Are you convinced the door is closed for Mahdavikia or is there a way back for him? Also interesting: would Kia being invited again for some upcoming games be a proof for the allegations towards Daei being wrong?

7) All other issues you would like to adress about Kia's exclusion from TM you feel are not covered by the six earlier questions, or for general conclusions or summaries of your points.

Conclusions

Here the different points on each question will be summed up very shortly.

1) As Kia's strength almost unanimously crossing, experience and setpieces have been mentioned. His weaknesses were identified as current shape and declining speed due to age (although not speed being a weakness yet, just not a strength as it used to be).

2) Kia can play any position on the right side, some argue he would also be better than any alternative as right central midfielder (Dr. Doom, gol_kuchik).

3) Interestingly already here we have big differences. Actually the list of direct competitors was different in every post, players named were Kaebi, Gholamnejad, Sadeghi, Teymourian, Shojaei, Rezaei and Meydavoudi. The comparisons to those players a spread throughout the whole posts, I will add that later.

4) His current club situation is rated poorly, although kaz sees a bright future as soon as he is back in shape and Dr. Doom considers the club situation irrelevant as the competition is not Iranian, so does gol_kuchik who argues more Iranians have an unsatisfying club situation.

5) Is an interesting point. Me, gol_kuchik and Majeed don't know of any specific problem, Dr. Doom knows no incident or problem in specific but is convinced that "going by daei's character and what was going on before and during the WC and the news and tid-bits, one can allow for presence of some personal issues between daei and a few other players". Kaz talks about the pre-WC times in which Kia is said to have taken an opposing stance to Daei. As source two online journalists are mentioned.

6) Here we have an agreement that we have not seen the final TM appearance of Kia yet and that Daei might well invite him back. While Kaz thinks public pressure will play a role in that, Majeed says public pressure must in no way influence the coach's decisions.

7)