The Daei conspiracy, getting to the facts [Part 3] - MEHDI MAHDAVIKIA

[kaz]

Because, Kia is being compared to Gholamnejad, Teymourian, Sadeghi, etc, not Ronaldinho. So to say Kia is not the best, yet he is one of OUR best is not justification but a fair comparison.

And Kia is not good at crosses? Who said that? If Kia is not a good crosser then Ali Daei is still 20 years old.

Also, what does his private life have to do with this discussion?

And whether one or more of us have made a solid case is not a question of fact but opinion. I think we all knew we weren't going to change your opinion Majid khan.

[maij]

Why are some of you providing negative arguments to justify your case ?

Kia is not the best shooter , but neither is anyone else?

Kia crosses are not accurate , but his is still better that all the team?

Kia is becoming old , But so was Daei while playing in TM?

Kia has raped a girl , so has a few hundred thousands filling prisons ?
(OK... this one is a joke , just in case some of you didn't realize it)

With such line of arguments , which is far from being Intellectual ,one can hardly reach any conclusion.

Two wrongs does not make a right.




I really don't think that we need to go so deep in Kia's argument. Simply put:
If Kia is in the team or the starting line-up , that is fine. If he is not there , I very much doubt that it has/will make huge difference on Team Melli.

We must move on, we need fresh legs , energy and mentality. Young names , player who are hungry , not multi millionaires. We need youth who can shine and if they stumble and fall , they rise once again and continue fighting.

We need fighters.


Frankly and all due respect to all that have made a case for Kia , and yes there are some good arguments , however NONE OF YOU have provided a definitive and solid case for his inclusion in my opinion.

[kaz]

Kaz jan, can you post the links of any newspiece of Nilou or Nader adressing this issue? I know such issues can not always be backed up by sources on the net (much is insider info), but anything about this matter would help.

Nilou's posts on this matter were on the forum, so that would take some doing to find (26,000 posts), and the word-for-word depiction was said in private. I'll look for them though. Nader's are in his chronicles from the world cup and are easily found on his news site - in fact, have been posted many times here by myself and DD. Actually, Nader has said this around the forums too, IIRC.

http://footballmedia.net/articles.asp?id=888

http://footballmedia.net/articles.asp?id=897

http://footballmedia.net/articles.asp?id=907

I am looking for Niloufar's articles but they are not archived well. I will ask her herself.

[gol_kuchik]

Thank you so much for all the time and effort you have put into this thread
Martin Reza jan to make sense of this issue.

To be honest, I hope Daei can be a lot more diplomatic on Kia issue.
Kia in my opinion *will* tell Daei if he is not physically ready or can't
give 100 percent like he did first round. Kia is not like young players at early
stages of their career who need the caps (already has 103). The real
benefit for Kia is the pride of contributing to TM, and if he can not do that he
wont play. Part of being a good coach is knowing when not to be too much
of a coach.


Kia must give an official statement like Rahman Rezai or Karim Bagheri (or
Daei himself), have made saying they want to retire from TM, before Daei can
cross him off. Deai can't simply not invite the man. We have a culture
and this borders disrespectful. This is the emotional end, which reasoning
alone can not address. Many fans including myself simply LOVE Kia for
what he has done not just for TM, but also as an Iranian player in Germany (and
I think he is still capable of doing) and he deserves better.


In conclusion, if the majority of people (almost 70%) believe Kia is left off of the
roster by Daei for personal reason, may be simply they are saying Daei has
completely mishandled the situation. At least thats why I casted my vote.

[Doctor DOOM]

amendments to these conclusions :

# 1- I dont agree that his "currect form" is anything bad.
In fact I'd say his club form is SUPERIOR to sadeghi's form and ando's form hands down.
yes, he may not be the kia of 2005. but that's neither here nor there. we're not replacing kia with kia-2005. we're replacing kia with ando, sadeghi, shojaei, .... etc.

# 4 - his club issue is irrelevant becoz his competitor at the club is NOT Iranain and hence while the chap may be better than kia, it does not mean kia's alternatives at TM are better than kia.

#5 - I didnt say "their characters dont match".
I said going by daei's character and what was going on at the time ( before and during the WC 06 ) and the news and tid-bits, one can allow for presence of some personal issues between daei and a few other players.

[Martin-Reza]

I added the first conclusions. Please let me know if you feel a major point has been left out or someone was wrongly quoted. Please have understanding that it's not easy to extract the info from the posts and sum it up very shortly, so in case you feel imbalance let me know, and don't assum there was anything on purpose. This will be constantly be updated with new opinions coming in.

I just have a request:

Kaz jan, can you post the links of any newspiece of Nilou or Nader adressing this issue? I know such issues can not always be backed up by sources on the net (much is insider info), but anything about this matter would help.

[gol_kuchik]

My first views on this issues:

1) The overall qualities and weaknesses of Mahdavikia

I think speed has been a major quality of Kia but it has declined in recent years, so it's not anymore. I would say his crossing, indirect setpieces, overview, quick decision making and vast experience are his main advantages. To his weaknesses I would add shooting and scoring in general, defensive one-on-ones also that he basically can only be used on the right line, not really on the left nor in a more central position.

But I don't think anyone is suggesting he should be used as a left wing
attacker or CM. But some of your other points are simply not precise:

Mehdi is not the strongest shooter, but neither is anyone else on our TM
roster with exception of players like Neko (and even he I would not consider
top quality shooter, but better than rest of what we got). Cetainly if you watch Rezai,
you can not claim he is a strong shooter, nor Ando or Kaabi or Shojaei.

As for scoring, he is giving great assissts, and that would be his role to
feed from the right wing, Vahid, who only got one scoring chance against
Saudis.

As for defensive quality, common MR jan, which *other* player can do well
as a defensive left on TM roster? Then why single out Kia for this?

2) The positions Mahdavikia can play and possible roles in the usual tactical systems of TM (4-4-2 diamond, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 flat)


In a 4-4-2 diamond only the rightback position and maybe the RCM, but both not ideally suiting his strength and weaknesses, especially the latter. In a 4-2-3-1 he can play rightback and ideally the right forward position, in a 4-4-2 rightback and right midfield which probably his strongest position.

RCM would be perfect and I think he can contribute greatly from that postion.

3) His competitors in TM for the different posts

In my eyes he has direct and indirect competitors. For the RM position ot would be Kaebi, Shojaei and even Gholamnejad, for RB Kaebi and Gholamnejad, for RFW in the 4-2-3-1 Shojaei, Kaebi, Rezaei, Meydavoudi. I will come back to comparisons of strength and weaknesses later.

Not sure the above will even preclude having Mehdi on (Although Meydavoudi
has been a huge disappointment so far).
Kaabi (RD) Shojai (CM attack) Mehdi RCM , Rezai RF. Additional comments
on 7.

4) His current form and club situation

As already mentioned, by this token Vahid (who is currently injured),
Ando and Shojai should not play either. (againt please look at item 7).

5) What are the issues between Mahdavikia and Daei leading Daei to exclude him? (here sources would be great if available)

I am not aware of any.

Neither am I. I simply found his exclusion real strange. (Again read #7)

6) Are you convinced the door is closed for Mahdavikia or is there a way back for him? Also interesting: would Kia being invited again for some upcoming games be a proof for the allegations towards Daei being wrong?

I think the door is open. If he improves his form and standing in Frankfurt or any other club he might go to in winter as well as more width in midfield being wanted against other opponents Daei won't hesitate to call him back.

Here I differ with the conspiracy folks. To me if a coach thinks player A
and B are about even in contribution and he likes player B more it is absolutely
within his realm of authority/power to choose the one he likes more. Again
read #7

7) All other issues you would like to adress about Kia's exclusion from TM you feel are not covered by the six earlier questions, or for general conclusions or summaries of your points.

For me there is nothing fishy about his exclusion. I would have nothing against him in TM, but his inclusion is no must currently. I generally think giving younger players a chance is correct when the veteran player is not in top shape and the alternatives can compete on the level needed for this WCQ.

Martin-Reza, in a football team, you have impact players which can turn the tied
for a team. I am afraid, your 2+2 equation would not exactly be a good
measure to see if Kia should or should not be on TM roster.

Please look back at DelPiero (1 year older than Kia when he played for Italian team in WC 2006). He came in one game in minute 88 and scored. I think
one has to be certainly a bit unfair to suggest Kia is not that type of impact
player. The issue is with the way we want to deploy him. He is not perhaps
able to contribute for entire 90 minutes, but if we look at our current
brightest TM prospect (Rezai) neither was he against SA.

But a player like Kia (just like Zedane) can bring so much more to the team
and the bench by their mere presence, work ethics and leadership roles. I
don't know if like the first round Kia is just injured and could not play for TM.
But *if* he is ready and willing, it would be very short sighted to leave him out of TM roster because he is not as quick as Gholamnejad?!

I hate to speculate on ulterior motives, it may simply be a bad advise or
doing a 2+2 like you are doing but Kias presence can help TM in ways
we have come and expected from his caliber of player, particularly as he
realizes the end of his career in not too distant future.

[purple_haze]

1) The overall qualities and weaknesses of Mahdavikia

He is without doubt the most experienced campaigner yet he is still only 31. He is very fast, a dead ball specialist and excellent on the running cross. He provides width and can play anywhere along the right - RB, RM, RW and RF. He is an excellent passer of the ball and his passing completion rate would be clearly above the norm.

The only cons I see in Mahdavikia right now is that he just recently come back from injury, has lost a bit of his pace in recent years and is not anymore one of the best players in the Bundesliga and is in the trough of his career.

However, when I compare this with his replacements, he is still a neck and shoulder above his competitors. So much so that even his cons shouldn't keep him out of being a starter.

2) The positions Mahdavikia can play and possible roles in the usual tactical systems of TM (4-4-2 diamond, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 flat)

Mahdavikia can essentially play any system. He is more tactically astute than any TM player we currently have and can play any position on the right side. Not only can he do it he'd be the leader in all those positions.

3) His competitors in TM for the different posts - also comparisons between Kia and the competitors are appreciated here

Depending on the system, he'll have different competitors, but essentially the 4 that are keeping him out are Sadeghi, Kaabi, Ando and Gholamnejad.

Sadeghi is merely one of the better IPL players but certainly not in the top tier. Simply a player whose qualities are limited at determination and flexibility. Gholamnejad is a newbie in every sense of the word. Not only is he not in the top tier of players, he is just average. Both these players contributed to Saipa's poor showing of 11th place last year. Indeed, Sadeghi, at his best, was struggling for a place in TM, so it is more than worrisome that both he and Gholamnejad are so readily trusted. Certainly not two of our better players and their existence in the squad, let alone the starting line-up is highly questionable.

Ando is a different case. He has infamy and is generally a very good player by Iranian standards. However, one feels he is really riding on his WC performance for his place in TM and also at club level the few goals he scored at Bolton now that he is at Fulham. I think bar his amazing stamina, he is not a very remarkable player. Still, I don't wish to say he can't be trusted to do anything but run the opposition into the ground, that would be very unfair to say that. However, he has for a long time been very below-par at TM. And Daei's reasonings for keeping Kia out apply even more strongly to someone like Ando. Yet Ando starts for TM, go figure.

Kaabi is young, has good qualities but still is inferior to Kia. His form is also pretty poor in comparison and from a 2nd division side back to the IPL...well it makes Frankfurt look like Real Madrid. I think of all those worthy of competing with him, it is Kaabi, but definitely not in his current state.

4) His current form and club situation

Currently, Kia just got back from injury after having been recuperating. I think it's expected that he will push on to gain his RB position in Frankfurt once he puts consecutive high quality performances together.

5) What are the issues between Mahdavikia and Daei leading Daei to exclude him? (here sources would be great if available)

This is easy. Both Kia, Karimi and a host of others stood upto Daei and Branko. The situation got to the point where Branko had to bench Daei for the sake of the team and Daei, to save face, had to pretend his back was not right. Reporters such as Niloufar Momeni and Nader Jahanfard depicted quite effectively the problem going in TM camp at the time. In a private conversation with Ms. Momeni I was privileged with even more information - like what they actually said to each other. And even Mahdavikia, with all his gentlemanly qualities, had reached boiling point.

It's quite clear Daei was upset at the time - and you can't blame him for being upset. You can blame him for being selfish, however. World cups are once in a life-time things, and Daei has never scored in a single game at the world cup.

6) Are you convinced the door is closed for Mahdavikia or is there a way back for him? Also interesting: would Kia being invited again for some upcoming games be a proof for the allegations towards Daei being wrong?

No, he is certainly not out of contention. I think once Kia gets more coverage or TM starts slipping the newspaper propagandists will slowly tie a noose around Daei.

And again no, if Kia were invited it wouldn't dismiss the fact that he is now currently being ignored for personal reasons and would not make Daei's poor and contradictory excuses any more valid than they are at this time. If Daei were to invite Kia, it would be more of a white flag on Daei's part.

7) All other issues you would like to adress about Kia's exclusion from TM you feel are not covered by the six earlier questions, or for general conclusions or summaries of your points.

I think with all the negatives that Daei and his fans try to portray for Kia, in a sense trying to justify his exclusion, disregards the fact that he is still way in front of the line...ahead of many of those invited and those he is being replaced with.

The fact that these people still entertain these arguments makes it even more transparent. To hear them try to justify Gholamnejad's presence, for example, is not only funny it is cringeworthy. Kia is one of Iran's all-time greats, still in his prime and still more than good enough for our humble national team. The irony that a lot of these same people tried to justify a 37 year old street light yet try to justify Kia's exclusion makes me sad as an Iranian. We are a country of double-standards. We are a country of hypocrites. People like Kia are too good for us, we deserve people like Daei.

Brilliant post. You said everything I wished to say on this matter.

[zzgloo]

why are we comparing kia to kaabi or gholamnejad?

play kia as right BACK , when we have two good choices for RB ( both kaabi and G-nejad ) ?
why?

KIA is needed for the right MIDFIELD.
becoz it is THIS post that showed impotence and inability to do anything against ksa.... absolutely zero !!!

ok. lets compare kia ... but with those who daei chose for right mid

1- speed:
kia may not be as fast as ando.
kia is as fast, if not faster than both shojaei and sadeghi

2- defensive duties ( including tackling, intercepting, ... )
kia is weaker than both sadeghi and ando ... I presume.
kia kicks shojaei's arse to next wednesday in this


3- shooting ( power, accuracy, timing, ... ):
kia is better than shojaei
kia kicks ando's and sadeghi's arses comfortabely

4- passing ( specific for a flank player ) :
kia's left toe is 10 times better passer than either sadeghi and ando
kia is as good a passer as shojaei ( but shojaei, when employed as a central role, can do better )


5- crossing ( frequency, accuracy , timing, )
hehehehehe
I'll just leave this one alone


6- Intelligence & experience.
LOOLL. ok. I'm gonna stop with the jokes here.
I cant laugh any more


7- set piece taking:
come on now.
should I even write anything in this one ?
LOL


so who came on top , finally ?

Payman jaan................
It is not just if There is a conspiracy theory or not ! as there are other important issues....
But, as far as what is related to Kia........
Kia, as you mentioned so correctly....is so versetail , that can help any team.....specialy TM with many holes !!...........Right back,right mid, even right forward......midfield......some one with that much experince, and many useful talents, and unique crossing abilities,Uniques inside thrusts......unique atleast in TM......
So, not inviteing him, even as bench warmer, is not to the interest of TM .
It is to some other interests !

[Doctor DOOM]

Ok, so you see Kaebi and Gholamnejad as better RBs.

Don't forget that both can play in RM as well, so a comparison might still be interesting.

Thanks for the broad comparison to the others, I guess you made your point there.

Let me just add that not the RM has to take setpieces of course, so the indirect competition through Zandi or Jabbari should be considered here.

1- if we use kaabi/g-nejad as RM, then who are we playing at RB?
obviously it will be someone inferior to them.
so why shd we weaken a key spot (RB) in the team just so we keep a deserving player like kia out ?
that doesnt make sense

and btw, G-nejad is nowhere as good as kia at RM also. in case you wanted to slip that in .



2- you want to compare jabbari's free kicks with kia's ?
really ?
plz tell me you are joking.

as for zandi, he is a leftie and he can take only one set of kicks.
we need a good right footed kicker. and since daei will not call in mobaali ( who can do it w both feet ), the second best right footer is none other than kia.

[Martin-Reza]

Ok, so you see Kaebi and Gholamnejad as better RBs.

Don't forget that both can play in RM as well, so a comparison might still be interesting.

Thanks for the broad comparison to the others, I guess you made your point there.

Let me just add that not the RM has to take setpieces of course, so the indirect competition through Zandi or Jabbari should be considered here.

[Doctor DOOM]

why are we comparing kia to kaabi or gholamnejad?

play kia as right BACK , when we have two good choices for RB ( both kaabi and G-nejad ) ?
why?

KIA is needed for the right MIDFIELD.
becoz it is THIS post that showed impotence and inability to do anything against ksa.... absolutely zero !!!

ok. lets compare kia ... but with those who daei chose for right mid

1- speed:
kia may not be as fast as ando.
kia is as fast, if not faster than both shojaei and sadeghi

2- defensive duties ( including tackling, intercepting, ... )
kia is weaker than both sadeghi and ando ... I presume.
kia kicks shojaei's arse to next wednesday in this


3- shooting ( power, accuracy, timing, ... ):
kia is better than shojaei
kia kicks ando's and sadeghi's arses comfortabely

4- passing ( specific for a flank player ) :
kia's left toe is 10 times better passer than either sadeghi and ando
kia is as good a passer as shojaei ( but shojaei, when employed as a central role, can do better )


5- crossing ( frequency, accuracy , timing, )
hehehehehe
I'll just leave this one alone


6- Intelligence & experience.
LOOLL. ok. I'm gonna stop with the jokes here.
I cant laugh any more


7- set piece taking:
come on now.
should I even write anything in this one ?
LOL


so who came on top , finally ?

[kaz]

1) The overall qualities and weaknesses of Mahdavikia

He is without doubt the most experienced campaigner yet he is still only 31. He is very fast, a dead ball specialist and excellent on the running cross. He provides width and can play anywhere along the right - RB, RM, RW and RF. He is an excellent passer of the ball and his passing completion rate would be clearly above the norm.

The only cons I see in Mahdavikia right now is that he just recently come back from injury, has lost a bit of his pace in recent years and is not anymore one of the best players in the Bundesliga and is in the trough of his career.

However, when I compare this with his replacements, he is still a neck and shoulder above his competitors. So much so that even his cons shouldn't keep him out of being a starter.

2) The positions Mahdavikia can play and possible roles in the usual tactical systems of TM (4-4-2 diamond, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 flat)

Mahdavikia can essentially play any system. He is more tactically astute than any TM player we currently have and can play any position on the right side. Not only can he do it he'd be the leader in all those positions.

3) His competitors in TM for the different posts - also comparisons between Kia and the competitors are appreciated here

Depending on the system, he'll have different competitors, but essentially the 4 that are keeping him out are Sadeghi, Kaabi, Ando and Gholamnejad.

Sadeghi is merely one of the better IPL players but certainly not in the top tier. Simply a player whose qualities are limited at determination and flexibility. Gholamnejad is a newbie in every sense of the word. Not only is he not in the top tier of players, he is just average. Both these players contributed to Saipa's poor showing of 11th place last year. Indeed, Sadeghi, at his best, was struggling for a place in TM, so it is more than worrisome that both he and Gholamnejad are so readily trusted. Certainly not two of our better players and their existence in the squad, let alone the starting line-up is highly questionable.

Ando is a different case. He has infamy and is generally a very good player by Iranian standards. However, one feels he is really riding on his WC performance for his place in TM and also at club level the few goals he scored at Bolton now that he is at Fulham. I think bar his amazing stamina, he is not a very remarkable player. Still, I don't wish to say he can't be trusted to do anything but run the opposition into the ground, that would be very unfair to say that. However, he has for a long time been very below-par at TM. And Daei's reasonings for keeping Kia out apply even more strongly to someone like Ando. Yet Ando starts for TM, go figure.

Kaabi is young, has good qualities but still is inferior to Kia. His form is also pretty poor in comparison and from a 2nd division side back to the IPL...well it makes Frankfurt look like Real Madrid. I think of all those worthy of competing with him, it is Kaabi, but definitely not in his current state.

4) His current form and club situation

Currently, Kia just got back from injury after having been recuperating. I think it's expected that he will push on to gain his RB position in Frankfurt once he puts consecutive high quality performances together.

5) What are the issues between Mahdavikia and Daei leading Daei to exclude him? (here sources would be great if available)

This is easy. Both Kia, Karimi and a host of others stood upto Daei and Branko. The situation got to the point where Branko had to bench Daei for the sake of the team and Daei, to save face, had to pretend his back was not right. Reporters such as Niloufar Momeni and Nader Jahanfard depicted quite effectively the problem going in TM camp at the time. In a private conversation with Ms. Momeni I was privileged with even more information - like what they actually said to each other. And even Mahdavikia, with all his gentlemanly qualities, had reached boiling point.

It's quite clear Daei was upset at the time - and you can't blame him for being upset. You can blame him for being selfish, however. World cups are once in a life-time things, and Daei has never scored in a single game at the world cup.

6) Are you convinced the door is closed for Mahdavikia or is there a way back for him? Also interesting: would Kia being invited again for some upcoming games be a proof for the allegations towards Daei being wrong?

No, he is certainly not out of contention. I think once Kia gets more coverage or TM starts slipping the newspaper propagandists will slowly tie a noose around Daei.

And again no, if Kia were invited it wouldn't dismiss the fact that he is now currently being ignored for personal reasons and would not make Daei's poor and contradictory excuses any more valid than they are at this time. If Daei were to invite Kia, it would be more of a white flag on Daei's part.

7) All other issues you would like to adress about Kia's exclusion from TM you feel are not covered by the six earlier questions, or for general conclusions or summaries of your points.

I think with all the negatives that Daei and his fans try to portray for Kia, in a sense trying to justify his exclusion, disregards the fact that he is still way in front of the line...ahead of many of those invited and those he is being replaced with.

The fact that these people still entertain these arguments makes it even more transparent. To hear them try to justify Gholamnejad's presence, for example, is not only funny it is cringeworthy. Kia is one of Iran's all-time greats, still in his prime and still more than good enough for our humble national team. The irony that a lot of these same people tried to justify a 37 year old street light yet try to justify Kia's exclusion makes me sad as an Iranian. We are a country of double-standards. We are a country of hypocrites. People like Kia are too good for us, we deserve people like Daei.

[Martin-Reza]

Yes, I remember the striking position, Asian Cup 2000 I believe, COM I haven't seen, can you tell me when that was?

I still think for 1) it would be a more balanced view if you would mention his weakpoints from your point of you. If you like to in comparison to the alternatives. Eg. is he really faster than Kaebi (I strongly doubt that) or Gholamnejad (I couldn't tell)? In regards to the RB position, is he stronger in defense than Kaebi who actually isn't a defender neither?

[Doctor DOOM]

Thanks for the inputs Majeed and DD. Just 2 backup questions on DD:

- 1) is not generally meant already as comparisons to the answers to question 3) (the TM competitors), generally, where lie his strength and where lie his weaknesses. I really don't think it is necessary to only name strength here, not even C. Ronaldo or Cannavaro have no weaknesses, so I would ask you to come with a bit more balanced general list if possible.

- 2) You start by saying Mahdavikia can "play in these roles" but don't define roles. Each of the systems have 11 roles, which roles exactly can he play in each system? This also helps identifying his competitors in the next question.

on 1- I talk about what he brings to the table and what is lacking if he is not.
I didnt say he doesnt have weaknesses. as u said, no player is bereft of weaknesses.

2- I have seen kia play the right-arm midfield , right winger, right back, striker ( this one I've read. not seen , as it was during his rah-ahan days ), even on a couple of occasions as central offensive mid.
with that much versatility & experience, I dont think he'll be found wanting in any role as long as it's not some drastic change like central defender or goal keepr
trust me.
the demands will not be anything different than what he's already done.

to deny his versatility and experience makes the whole discussion moot.