The Daei conspiracy, getting to the facts [Part 3] - MEHDI MAHDAVIKIA

[Ali Chicago]

while Ali's and majid's statement on " a leader/coach/... would want ppl who follow his orders and is comfortable with them" is correct , but as with EVERYTHING else in life, there are limits and boundaries for this.

there is always a check and balance to everything.
in the end, what we gain shd always come out on top of what we lose.
am I correct? or are we to deny this also?

therefore, there is a need for this check and balance, to make sure we end up with something positive, not negative.
and once again, I have to repeat this: while the coach's desires are important, they are NOT the top priority. the absolute TOP priority is the TEAM's needs and fate.
if this is not denied or refuted, then we can say an individual in this collective is dissolved into it and with it, some certain likes/dislikes when they are not in line with the needs or fortunes of the collective.


I dont think majid jan would pick his friend, whom he's very comfortable with, to do the job of a skilled employee. does he? I dont think so.
he's however, pick among the two employees best suited for the job, the one he feels more comfortable with.
correct?
hence the need for comparison and detail in performance.

Payman Jaan;

I never claimed that there is no limit. If you read my post again, you see I said that limit is where the dispute and argument comes in.

It is no secret that I am criticial of few decisions football wise and the approach of Mr. Daie toward Media. So I definitly don't think his authority is limitless.

In this post, I was trying to point out that we can't get to a solution in this thread, base on pure logic (hence it is not 2*2=4 comment).

[maij]

while Ali's and majid's statement on " a leader/coach/... would want ppl who follow his orders and is comfortable with them" is correct , but as with EVERYTHING else in life, there are limits and boundaries for this.

there is always a check and balance to everything.
in the end, what we gain shd always come out on top of what we lose.
am I correct? or are we to deny this also?

therefore, there is a need for this check and balance, to make sure we end up with something positive, not negative.
and once again, I have to repeat this: while the coach's desires are important, they are NOT the top priority. the absolute TOP priority is the TEAM's needs and fate.
if this is not denied or refuted, then we can say an individual in this collective is dissolved into it and with it, some certain likes/dislikes when they are not in line with the needs or fortunes of the collective.


I dont think majid jan would pick his friend, whom he's very comfortable with, to do the job of a skilled employee. does he? I dont think so.
he's however, pick among the two employees best suited for the job, the one he feels more comfortable with.
correct?
hence the need for comparison and detail in performance.

Sound argument.

One thing that I am not sure of from your statement is how do you disengage "the coach's desires" from "TEAM's needs and fate."

[maij]

yes, we saw how the "fighters" have fared so far, and if we are fair, we shd admit they havent fared well at all.
it's not just about "fighting". put mirzapoor there and he'd fight as hard as the next fellow. so what ?

if you have to change the tyres of your rover, would you mind if instead of a regular tyre, they put a "wooden wheel" ?
it "rotates" afterall.
dont you want "rotation" only ?

How they fared ?
OK....the possibilities of your statements are
1) the elimination of Team Melli from the World Cup qualification rounds , I presume ...
2) The failure of Team Melli to beat Saudi Arabia 5-0 in Riyadh

3) Failure of the likes of Shojaei and Rezaei to do a Maradonna or Messi in their matches....

Which one , Doc?

I also hope you were kidding when you said his crosses arent good or .... .
compared to whom?

Kidding ??? You must be watching too much "Seinfeld" re-runs , Doc

coz if you say that in defense of daei's choices ( as is the routine here ), then you may be requested to back it up with evidence that all/any of daei's choices' crosses are BETTER than kia's.
... which wouldnt be an outrageous request IMO. perfectly valid especially in kia's case

shall we compare sadeghi's, ando's and shojaei's crosses to kia's ?

Fair enough.....How many matches that Kia played for in Team Melli recently , do you have access to?

Do you have access to the last match that Kia played ? If you have then watch it and then we will compare notes. That is about the best I can do as far as evidence is concerned.

and what IS this mysterious "definitive" argument?
we arent allowed to compare kia with his replacements ?

then shall we compare him to kia of 2005? perhaps that's the definitive argument?
or shall we compare him to schweinsteiger ?
or should we compare him to pele ? or maybe michael phelps ? or a tree

majid jan, comparing what we give to what we gain IS the definitive argument, ey baradar

?

Sorry , you lost me there...... I have read it several times, and I am not sure what you are saying.

maybe you can elaborate a bit more here so I can provide an argument.

[Ali Chicago]

I agree almost 100%. (except the re-invitation of Vahid shows Ali Daei is
flexible and pragmatic. To me this leaves room for optimism). I think if he
invites Kia for Korea, no one would interpret this as his weakness but strength.
The same way when Vahid was invited no one said why are you inviting Vahid,
fans are much smarter than they get credit for.

I hope you are right. Granted I am a bit suspicious of Mr. Daie behavior, so I love to see if you right. I beleive if Khalili wasn't injured, Vahid wasn't invited. But I hope I am wrong.

At the end we all want the TM goes to WC2010 and do well there, so we need all our assets. If Mr. Daie honstly thinks Kia isn't an asset, I truly hope he has more than Kaabi , Gholamreza Razai or Gholamnezhad in mind. I don't know how many know that Gholamnezhad doesn't even start in Paas.

I hope Mr. Daie tries to forget about the past, if that is actually the main reason for not inviting Kia and Karimi and try to fully utilize our assets. I used to think getting to Wc2010 must be easy with almost 5 seeds for Asia. Thinking if we even come third in our group we should be able to beat the 3rd team in the other group and then be able to beat New Zeland from Ocenia. A resurgent North Korea worries me now and I think it is much tougher than my original estimation.

[Doctor DOOM]

while Ali's and majid's statement on " a leader/coach/... would want ppl who follow his orders and is comfortable with them" is correct , but as with EVERYTHING else in life, there are limits and boundaries for this.

there is always a check and balance to everything.
in the end, what we gain shd always come out on top of what we lose.
am I correct? or are we to deny this also?

therefore, there is a need for this check and balance, to make sure we end up with something positive, not negative.
and once again, I have to repeat this: while the coach's desires are important, they are NOT the top priority. the absolute TOP priority is the TEAM's needs and fate.
if this is not denied or refuted, then we can say an individual in this collective is dissolved into it and with it, some certain likes/dislikes when they are not in line with the needs or fortunes of the collective.


I dont think majid jan would pick his friend, whom he's very comfortable with, to do the job of a skilled employee. does he? I dont think so.
he's however, pick among the two employees best suited for the job, the one he feels more comfortable with.
correct?
hence the need for comparison and detail in performance.

[maij]

Nice post , Ali jan.

To be honest I don't see any benefits from the whole argument. Whoever is fully supporting Daie will point out the fact that he is the head coach and has the right to choose whoever he wants and try to question abilities of these two players in order to justify not inviting them. Daie critics will point out the acheivments of these players. This isn't a math question that is 2*2=4. We are dealing with human beings and their decisions which in nature is subjective.

I don't see that argument between those who fully support Daei and those against , the way you see it. I DO fully support him and obviously try to justify his motives, notwithstanding what is in his mind , of course.

If you put yourself in any leader , captain , coach , administrator shoes , specially in a high profile capacity , you would certainly want your team to succeed and win....Don't you ?

So, he fact that Daei has excluded some of the big names is indicative to some courage and confidence more than conspiracy/bias theory.

There is no question that Kia and Karimi are still capable able bodied players. I have a feeling that if they were needed, they will be called. But if the coach does not see the need for them , then this should be respected,

IMO simple fact is Daie probably in a private setting will deny the impact of players like Karimi or Kia. But he wants players that be "farmanbordar" basically accpet his full authroity without any questions. Someone who doesn't question Daie. Someone who think and act as if Daie knows the beset. To some degree it is undrestandable too. Now the dispute is at what level!???

Very possible scenario but then again there is nothing wrong with that. I have been a leader of many project teams, departments and work groups and I always selected the people that I felt comfortable with be it performance based or disciplinary. I think it is the norm with others to do the same. You would not select a person in a team that you don't trust or think he/she will let you down or has contempt for you.

To be honest this is an issue when a former player becomes the head coach. Remember when Kia was in Haumburg and that ex player became head coach of Hamuburg (forgot his name). There was an issue with many players didn't respect him to the level he wanted and to some degree that is undrestandable. Player who you are playing with all of a sudden becomes head coach and now u have to totally accept his full authroity. I am not saying this is right (not fully accepting the full authroity of a former player turned head coach), but many things aren't right, but still a reality. We are dealing with human, that isn't a logical creature, and has emotions.

That person was Thomas Doll.

As you said , this is quite common but this is part and parcel of life.

In a true professional environment , leadership must be respected and when a leader position is undermined , the a team can not perform to its maximum efficiency and potential.

Let me add one comment here, and that is purely personal view.
The leader of the team , may not be the best person for the job, and in the eastern culture , it is quite possible that he reached his position based on "whom he knows rather that what he knows" .

[gol_kuchik]

To be honest I don't see any benefits from the whole argument. Whoever is fully supporting Daie will point out the fact that he is the head coach and has the right to choose whoever he wants and try to question abilities of these two players in order to justify not inviting them. Daie critics will point out the acheivments of these players. This isn't a math question that is 2*2=4. We are dealing with human beings and their decisions which in nature is subjective.
My only comment is about the title of the thread. I am sure English is probably 3rd language of Martin. So the usage of word conspiracy I dont' think is right in this case. Conspiracy has a different meaning.
Bias IMO is the right word not conspiracy. No one is accusing the Daie for conspiracy. For all I know Daie is the head coach and he can select whoever he wants and doesn't need to be responsive to anyone, because at the end he is the one whose neck is on the line. To be honest, I think we are making too much of this.
IMO simple fact is Daie probably in a private setting will deny the impact of players like Karimi or Kia. But he wants players that be "farmanbordar" basically accpet his full authroity without any questions. Someone who doesn't question Daie. Someone who think and act as if Daie knows the beset. To some degree it is undrestandable too. Now the dispute is at what level!???
To be honest this is an issue when a former player becomes the head coach. Remember when Kia was in Haumburg and that ex player became head coach of Hamuburg (forgot his name). There was an issue with many players didn't respect him to the level he wanted and to some degree that is undrestandable. Player who you are playing with all of a sudden becomes head coach and now u have to totally accept his full authroity. I am not saying this is right (not fully accepting the full authroity of a former player turned head coach), but many things aren't right, but still a reality. We are dealing with human, that isn't a logical creature, and has emotions.

I agree almost 100%. (except the re-invitation of Vahid shows Ali Daei is
flexible and pragmatic. To me this leaves room for optimism). I think if he
invites Kia for Korea, no one would interpret this as his weakness but strength.
The same way when Vahid was invited no one said why are you inviting Vahid,
fans are much smarter than they get credit for.

[Martin-Reza]

Yeah, conspiracy doesn't fully fit, although if you look at it from the other side the allegations could actually be a conspiracy against Daei, although the title wasn't meant to mean that.

The main point is that people run around and talk about Daei's vendetta as if it was a fact. I wanted to get to the facts to find out who is concerned and what there actually is that backs up these claims, all in a structured way.

[Ali Chicago]

To be honest I don't see any benefits from the whole argument. Whoever is fully supporting Daie will point out the fact that he is the head coach and has the right to choose whoever he wants and try to question abilities of these two players in order to justify not inviting them. Daie critics will point out the acheivments of these players. This isn't a math question that is 2*2=4. We are dealing with human beings and their decisions which in nature is subjective.

My only comment is about the title of the thread. I am sure English is probably 3rd language of Martin. So the usage of word conspiracy I dont' think is right in this case. Conspiracy has a different meaning.

Bias IMO is the right word not conspiracy. No one is accusing the Daie for conspiracy. For all I know Daie is the head coach and he can select whoever he wants and doesn't need to be responsive to anyone, because at the end he is the one whose neck is on the line. To be honest, I think we are making too much of this.

IMO simple fact is Daie probably in a private setting won't deny the impact of players like Karimi or Kia. But he wants players that be "farmanbordar" basically accpet his full authroity without any questions. Someone who doesn't question Daie. Someone who think and act as if Daie knows the beset. To some degree it is undrestandable too. Now the dispute is at what level!???

To be honest this is an issue when a former player becomes the head coach. Remember when Kia was in Haumburg and that ex player became head coach of Hamuburg (forgot his name). There was an issue with many players didn't respect him to the level he wanted and to some degree that is undrestandable. Player who you are playing with all of a sudden becomes head coach and now u have to totally accept his full authroity. I am not saying this is right (not fully accepting the full authroity of a former player turned head coach), but many things aren't right, but still a reality. We are dealing with human, that isn't a logical creature, and has emotions.

[Martin-Reza]

Majeed is very right, we should try to talk fair and not always be afraid of our words could be turned against us if we don't support our stance in every line.

There is a certain point dedicated to comparing Kia to the alternatives, this shouldn't be done in all other points, especially those preluding this issue.

Dr. Doom, I will try to make your proposed changes, I don't think I will do for 1) because that is what I was just talking about.

[Doctor DOOM]

I really don't think that we need to go so deep in Kia's argument. Simply put:
If Kia is in the team or the starting line-up , that is fine. If he is not there , I very much doubt that it has/will make huge difference on Team Melli.

We must move on, we need fresh legs , energy and mentality. Young names , player who are hungry , not multi millionaires. We need youth who can shine and if they stumble and fall , they rise once again and continue fighting.

We need fighters.

yes, we saw how the "fighters" have fared so far, and if we are fair, we shd admit they havent fared well at all.
it's not just about "fighting". put mirzapoor there and he'd fight as hard as the next fellow. so what ?

if you have to change the tyres of your rover, would you mind if instead of a regular tyre, they put a "wooden wheel" ?
it "rotates" afterall.
dont you want "rotation" only ?



=======================

I also hope you were kidding when you said his crosses arent good or .... .
compared to whom?
coz if you say that in defense of daei's choices ( as is the routine here ), then you may be requested to back it up with evidence that all/any of daei's choices' crosses are BETTER than kia's.
... which wouldnt be an outrageous request IMO. perfectly valid especially in kia's case

shall we compare sadeghi's, ando's and shojaei's crosses to kia's ?

=======================

and what IS this mysterious "definitive" argument?
we arent allowed to compare kia with his replacements ?

then shall we compare him to kia of 2005? perhaps that's the definitive argument?
or shall we compare him to schweinsteiger ?
or should we compare him to pele ? or maybe michael phelps ? or a tree ?

majid jan, comparing what we give to what we gain IS the definitive argument, ey baradar.

[Hadi]

I have no doubt whatsoever that under any circumstances, Mahdavikia is a head and shoulders above any other right back or right winger in Iran and his INCLUSION will in fact have a huge effect in our WCQ campaign. One free kick from Kia, one assist or one cross from Mahdavikia can change the outcome of the game for us.Frankly, Its insanity not to invite him.

Cant say the same about karimi though.

[maij]

OK...Now Kaz in expert on Majeed

[kaz]

Yeah...people keep confusing facts with opinions.

So what ever kaz says is fact , whatever I say is an opinion.

Charming....

No, whatever is opinion is opinion and whatever is fact is fact. Kaz just likes facts more and than Majid does apparently .

[maij]

Yeah...people keep confusing facts with opinions.

So what ever kaz says is fact , whatever I say is an opinion.

Charming....