The Daei conspiracy, getting to the facts [Part 3] - MEHDI MAHDAVIKIA

[kaz]

What difference does it make if we made it to the World Cup with Khalili or without Hashemian???

What is the objective here ? for for Team Melli to succeed , I hope.

.... or are we suddenly more concerned with player X or player Y to be in the team.

Success should not be measured in absolutes. Whilst we may pass through qualifying with Sattar Zare at LB, that doesn't make him a very good LB does it? Or likewise, if we get through qualifying (which we should, considering how comparatively easy it is) with Khalili up front, does that make him better than Hashemian?

Will he be better suited to go against the best defenders in the world?

[kaz]

One thing that I am not sure of from your statement is how do you disengage "the coach's desires" from "TEAM's needs and fate."

You use a standard, of preferably a reasonable person.

Is it more likely that a coach has set aside an all-time Iranian great still in his prime because they had feud in the midst of a WC campaign, or is it more likely that Gholamnejad, who has thus far done and achieved nothing by comparison, who is not even amongst the best players in the league, is a better choice for the team?

[Paradigm]

Mahdavikia has not been as useful to TM since AC 2004 and much of it has to do with age and fitness. We have players for his position who have the similar speed and crossing abilities. But we do not have any good subs for the function Karimi is known for, which is dribbling 3-6 opposing players at one time. We need those like him with ball control abilities in cases that the team needs to have possession and also for the play-making abilities. With Mahdavikia in the field the game is like basketball, but with Karimi it resembles water polo (as far as having to draw analogies with the direction of the play.)

[Doctor DOOM]

^ very good article, majid jan.

I agree.

and I think one factor that explains his actions is "BLANK SLATE".
he started with a blank slate, not knowing almost anyone in Iran, not having any favorites, not having any enemies, or ... .
completely blank.

so chances are when he took the job , on his first day, all the players meant the same to him. nobody was better or worse than the other. he didnt feel more comfortable with this and less with that chap.


one thing I was hoping would happen with daei taking over, and in fact DID mention it in one of those early posts as soon as he was chosen was to believe he would wipe everything off and start with a blank slate at TM ! In fact I argued with bahram and a few others who said having his former team mates and all the baggage ( of WC especially ) will not sit well with the whole scenario of daei as TM coach. I defended him and never imagined he would bring in all that baggage along!
now? I feel I was talking about a very different person.


I believe had Clemente's deal gone through, we'd have the same attitude presiding at TM as well.
alas ..... !

[maij]

Interesting article related to the type of coaching mentality:

.

[maij]

Yes Ali Jan...if there is improvement in respect to leadership , then it is certainly welcome and I am all for it, but let us not doge the main issue though....there is a long way to go, perhaps a new generation or one that follows.


About Kaebi's trip. I am only stating facts, here not my own opinion.

FIFA used to cancel the cautions ( but not the red cards) of players for the next stage. IFF thought the same will be practiced this time. TM coaches inquired about the situation and included Kaebi in the list. The answer came back too late.

My personal opinion now, I fault IFF for not pressing FIFA for an answer.

[Ali Chicago]

.....Iran needs strong leadership , not a popular one , in order to acheive success in all fields.

Majid Jaan;

I am not that naive to not know about lack of professionalisem that you talk about. I lived 20smething in Iran myself as well.

Having said that, I think what you see (the attitude) is the effect not the cause. Why the person doesn't have self discipline? Because, he was never trusted, because the system was so khar to khar that the guy can get away with Murder even.

This culture of Gholdor parasti and we need a tough guy, is in a way contributing to this lack of individualisem and self discipline. Is essense we accept we need someone to "bekoobeh be farghe saremoon, ma adaam beshoo nistim".

See the current TM. Why we go far, comapre Azizi situation during Branko days (he not getting invited and how he handled it), with the current situation of the Kia and Karimi. Don't you see an improvement? See Nikbakht. Even in this same sheer to sheer condition in Iran, our players and teams and coaches are becoming better and improving. They need respect rather than being driven with the Iron feast.

I think you have mixed up the difference between being arbitrary and discipline. Arbitrariness is different from discipline. As an example see the issue with Kaabi situation in the KSA trip? To me it seems (assuming the news is right), the so called discpline for Mr. Daie is very loose and only applies when it serves him. He takes Kaabi with him to Saudie and even he comes back later than other TM players when his club needs him. I know IFF is partly to blame but for the love of god, if Kaabi is one of the starting players, Mr. Daie should have pushed IFF to inquire about this like 2 months ago. Despite that Kaabi is taken away from his club. Had he been principaled, he would have said, Kaabi is being paid by Saipa and right now can't play for the TM. Kaabi himself can go to the Haj Omreh ( I am sure he can handle the expenses). Whereas Mr. Daie insist he needs TM players 10 days before the KSA match. Don't you see a duality here?

[Doctor DOOM]

Peyman jan..... Khodet be Kocheh Ali Chap nazan, Dadash.

Watch the last matches of Kia that HE PLAYED in Team Melli , then we can compare notes about his virtues.

I can't be more clearer that that.

The last match he played was against Syria in Azadi.

I suppose you want to say this was his weakest game.
I will try to watch it later.

but lets say this:
if he had at least ONE CORRECT CROSS, then he's done better than sadeghi and ando.
if he's had at least ONE correct interception in that game, then he's done better than shojaei also.

you seem to remember the game better than me. did he have at least 1 good cross and 1 good interception or defensive move ?

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and while I'm watching that one, I invite you to watch ANDO's last match in kia's post too ( he had wrong pass after wrong pass. nothing else ! )

and then if you can, watch sadeghi's last match in kia's post too. ( he's been consistently playing poor )

and shojaei's last match in kia's post too ( he had 1 cross and a couple of dribbles. no defense and a couple of turn-overs )

but the matter is that while we can give a bit of leeway to a player for one or two poor games, we cant do that for players who have had a SERIES of poor ones. can we ?

I dont know who is doing the "kooche ali chap" here.


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we're setting a very tricky and dangerous precedence here by merely picking one game to prove a player's eligibility or lack of.
coz then, by the same token, we shd get rid of :
ando
zareh
sadeghi
VH
zandi
aghili
hosseini
hajsafi

...etc etc.

are you ready to get rid of the above names ?
they all had a weak last match , whenever they played it.
shall we ?
I say lets start with hosseini. out with him.
then we go to aghili.
next, ando
next hajsafi, followed by VH, after him, zareh and finally sadeghi .

but wait.
I remember nekunam having a bad game a month or two back.
lets throw him out too !

[maij]

Peyman jan..... Khodet be Kocheh Ali Chap nazan, Dadash.

Watch the last matches of Kia that HE PLAYED in Team Melli , then we can compare notes about his virtues.

I can't be more clearer that that.

The last match he played was against Syria in Azadi.

[maij]

I am not accusing mr. Daie or anybody, I wasn't there, but from outside, and based on his behavior with the media, it seems Mr. Daie uses a fear based and demanding respect attitude with media (I assume it is 100 times stronger with players), rather than earning respect and use soft power.

I am not in Iran and maybe in current situation this approach won't work in current Iran, but we need to start somewhere. I have said times and times again, if we keep doing the samething we did in the past and apply the same method , results will be the same.

Ali Jan, in Aviation field which I have worked in , there is quite a big emphasis on what is referred to as "Cultural awareness" and this awareness extends from the two pilots in the flight deck up to dealing with foreign governments , companies and aviation authorities. The basic idea is for us to understand that people act differently to events based on their culture and react accordingly.

Why I say this ? Because you brought a very good point about the environment in Iran and Ali Daei's attitude. Admittedly I have never worked in Iran , but I have dealt quite bit with Iran's aviation from handling agents , to civil aviation authorities.

The biggest problem I found dealing with them is lack of discipline , haphazard attitude and lack of quality. For example , you find a mistake in what a staff has done in a load sheet , instead of apologizing or correcting their mistakes , you are faced with something like " Hala , be khoobi khodat radish kon" Basically saying , forget about it .

When there is something that is not allowed by the authorities , you will normally find some smart Alec who will tell you " Man Ma'amoor Forodghah mishinasam , radish mikonam....Khateret Jam bashe..." - Don't worry about it , I know the Airport Manager ......

Basically , if they can get away with murder , they will attempt to do it. This is quite different from the western culture where people repect the law and stick to it . Self Discipline.

From what I hear ...the most frustrated people or professionals in Iran are those who came back to the country after living in the west. They have difficulty acclimatizing to this easy going mentality of their homeland.

Iran needs strong leadership , not a popular one , in order to acheive success in all fields.

[Doctor DOOM]

How they fared ?
OK....the possibilities of your statements are
1) the elimination of Team Melli from the World Cup qualification rounds , I presume ...
2) The failure of Team Melli to beat Saudi Arabia 5-0 in Riyadh

3) Failure of the likes of Shojaei and Rezaei to do a Maradonna or Messi in their matches....

Which one , Doc?


========================================

Kidding ??? You must be watching too much "Seinfeld" re-runs , Doc


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Fair enough.....How many matches that Kia played for in Team Melli recently , do you have access to?

Do you have access to the last match that Kia played ? If you have then watch it and then we will compare notes. That is about the best I can do as far as evidence is concerned.


==========================================


Sorry , you lost me there...... I have read it several times, and I am not sure what you are saying.

maybe you can elaborate a bit more here so I can provide an argument.

1- first of all that is clear dodging that may go well as the general forum.
we all know becoz a team wins does not mean they played well, or if a team loses it doesnt mean they played poorly.
so plz dont reduce the debate to "1"s and "0"s.

we are talking about the quality of performance of select players, given their duties and roles in a match.

just looking at the score-board is exactly what most of us do : sweeping the dirt under the rug !
something that was tried in this game too

=============================

that seinfeld remark does not answer how you reached the conclusion that kia's crosses arent good enough.
unless there is an episode where seinfeld discusses kia's crosses with evidence, that I missed.
any videos of that one ?
so until I see this episode, I'm going to call this answer as another dodging.

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I dont understand.
do you mean to say kia when he was a part of TM, played worse than these chaps?
or do you mean to take ONE game and compare that one game with these guys?

tell you what ,majid jan.
lets sum up all sadeghi's games and his contributions to the team and his personal performance score.
ADD that to ANDO's games where he played in kia's post, and his contributions and personal score
then, ADD that sum, to shojaei's personal score and controibutions when he played in kia's post.
sum up all these numbers.
then, multiply it by two .... faghat be gol-e jamalet.
then, add number 3 ( coz they are 3 players ) to this sum ... be gol-e jamale daei jan.
and reach a number. lets say X.
calculate the number of these games. (Y)

then take ANY of kia's games equaling the number (Y).
then lets see kia's contributions and personal score in those games. (Z )

then if we compare X with Z, I bet my last derham X will be half as much az Z.
( in fact I'd venture X would be around 7 or 8 !!! )




================================

you said :

Why are some of you providing negative arguments to justify your case ?

Kia is not the best shooter , but neither is anyone else?

Kia crosses are not accurate , but his is still better that all the team?

Kia is becoming old , But so was Daei while playing in TM?

Kia has raped a girl , so has a few hundred thousands filling prisons ?
(OK... this one is a joke , just in case some of you didn't realize it)

With such line of arguments , which is far from being Intellectual ,one can hardly reach any conclusion.

Two wrongs does not make a right.


Frankly and all due respect to all that have made a case for Kia , and yes there are some good arguments , however NONE OF YOU have provided a definitive and solid case for his inclusion in my opinion.

you wanted a definitive argument.
and the argument/case was made in comparison to the alternatives.

if I ask you made a definitive case for why I shd take a banana ( while others say potato chips ), you'd naturally compare the benefits of a banana against those of chips.
and naturally you'd say a banana has calcium, chips dont.
banana has vitamins, chips dont.
banana has glucose for immediate energy, chips dont have as much
banana has ....

ok. if you dont want the comparison, lets try this:
kia has great crossing, with good enough accuracy and frequency.
he has good shooting ability
he has good enough speed ( altho , perhaps, not as fast as he was before )
kia has pretty good defensive abilities
kia has immense experience and maturity
kia is pretty versatile
kia ...... etc etc etc
what does that get kia? claps and some hoorahs.

but when we compare kia with the chaps used in his post at TM, we get a more clear picture of what we have and what we COULD have.
then, we can assess what we stand to gain and what we stand to lose.
thus, making decision making easier.

this is as simple as I could put it, in simple words.
beyond this, I'm incapable of making it simpler.

[Ali Chicago]

Sound argument.

One thing that I am not sure of from your statement is how do you disengage "the coach's desires" from "TEAM's needs and fate."

No coach on purpose wants his team to loose of course. But his ways or methods that he is sure will respond, might be the wrong ways.

I am sure you heard the quote in English " Road to hell is paved with good intentions". Now I am not saying god forbid Mr. Daie is leading us to hell, but the point is one can make mistakes that work against himself or hereself without knowingly wanting to.

You may ask how X and Y and Z knows and coach doesn't know it. Well, it could be that collective brain power at times can work much better than a single brain. Now the billion dollar question is how to find that "at times"!!!!!

[Ali Chicago]

What difference does it make if we made it to the World Cup with Khalili or without Hashemian???

What is the objective here ? for for Team Melli to succeed , I hope.

.... or are we suddenly more concerned with player X or player Y to be in the team.

I think you are missing the point. Of course it won't make a difference. Gol Kuchik's comment was Daie is felxible because he invited Hashemian. He used that example as a sign of supporting his felxibility. I said, I think he was forced due to the Khalili's injury. Hope that clarifies. I can care less with who we get to the WC. If Mr. Daie's pesar khaleh playes but we get to the WC in a reasuuring way I am all for it.

[Ali Chicago]

Nice post , Ali jan.



I don't see that argument between those who fully support Daei and those against , the way you see it. I DO fully support him and obviously try to justify his motives, notwithstanding what is in his mind , of course.

If you put yourself in any leader , captain , coach , administrator shoes , specially in a high profile capacity , you would certainly want your team to succeed and win....Don't you ?

So, he fact that Daei has excluded some of the big names is indicative to some courage and confidence more than conspiracy/bias theory.

There is no question that Kia and Karimi are still capable able bodied players. I have a feeling that if they were needed, they will be called. But if the coach does not see the need for them , then this should be respected,




Very possible scenario but then again there is nothing wrong with that. I have been a leader of many project teams, departments and work groups and I always selected the people that I felt comfortable with be it performance based or disciplinary. I think it is the norm with others to do the same. You would not select a person in a team that you don't trust or think he/she will let you down or has contempt for you.






That person was Thomas Doll.

As you said , this is quite common but this is part and parcel of life.

In a true professional environment , leadership must be respected and when a leader position is undermined , the a team can not perform to its maximum efficiency and potential.

Let me add one comment here, and that is purely personal view.
The leader of the team , may not be the best person for the job, and in the eastern culture , it is quite possible that he reached his position based on "whom he knows rather that what he knows" .

Thanks, glad to see we can find commonalities in certain areas. Let me add my two cents.
I don't know what do you do for your day to day life, but based on your comments it seems you work in a professional environment yourself in a team lead capacity.

In the west currently in the management (at least to the level I am exposed to) they talk about leaders and managers and difference between the two. They are talking about influencing without being a manager. These are deep topics to discuss in this forum. But I wish, and history has shown that when (in the long run) the management has worked with buy in rather than enforcing his ideas down the people's throat, result has been more positive.

I am not accusing mr. Daie or anybody, I wasn't there, but from outside, and based on his behavior with the media, it seems Mr. Daie uses a fear based and demanding respect attitude with media (I assume it is 100 times stronger with players), rather than earning respect and use soft power.

I am not in Iran and maybe in current situation this approach won't work in current Iran, but we need to start somewhere. I have said times and times again, if we keep doing the samething we did in the past and apply the same method , results will be the same.

[maij]

I hope you are right. Granted I am a bit suspicious of Mr. Daie behavior, so I love to see if you right. I beleive if Khalili wasn't injured, Vahid wasn't invited. But I hope I am wrong.

What difference does it make if we made it to the World Cup with Khalili or without Hashemian???

What is the objective here ? for for Team Melli to succeed , I hope.

.... or are we suddenly more concerned with player X or player Y to be in the team.