Are we fooling ourseleves ?!

[zzgloo]

A wiser member than me, ' hajagha ', with his recent posts, made me think, if we are all fooling ourseleves, with what kind of football we realy have:

1-We all know by now, we never deserved to have the fifa rank of 15 th in the world, as it was a major goof by fifa.

2-Currant, secound or third in Asia , also seems over rateing.

3-Our legioners never were as good as we thought.

4-our legioners ,had been mostly bench wormers,or short time guests,or never, any player thier teams could not do without.

5-It also seems,based on extended " AGHA ZADEHA ",who had made high commisions out of industrial deals with Europe, ..if nothingels, we have more than desereved,football agents.

6-Our IFF is and has been a mess !, and always will damage our out put.

7-Our country is even in deeper mess, and we are dummed to suffer from it.even in football.

8-Our legioners, not so big a deal anyway, are old, and we have not had fresh blood.

9-our league is so elementary, even, Ghotbi, daei, and azizi, just for knowing a little about outside football, are among thier bests, just on thier first years.

10-All, arab countries seem like improveing daily,and with the addition of australia,and uzbacks the road has gotten tougher.

11-Our currant situation, with two ties is awakening !

12-Ali daei, does not seem to have a clue,how to take iran to the WC.
.............................................

Are, we just, fooling ourseleves ?...........should n't we start thinking of the Brazilian WC in 2014?

[Ali Chicago]

All of the things you said is right. Having said that, a huge number of iranian youth are playing soccer day to day in the streets of Iran and now clubs. Taht by itself a major foundation to build on.

Football in iran has the fans, spectators and people in Iran (a large majority are interested). This is a factor that many other countries don't have as much. How many games in the UAE or Qatar you watched when the game was played in an empty stadium.

So in summary, while things look bleak, but the soccer foundation in Iran based on sheer number of people who play and fans is strong. At present, I think a generation of our superstars retired or are old and the new blood either isn't as talented or still hasn't establsihed them. Our football team was always based on player's creativity and not on team work and elments like that. So right now not having the superstars weakens our team.

We Iranians are very good underdogs. As soon as TM see things are bleak they will notch it up (last 8 minutes of Kuwait game as an example).

[The-Red]

zzgloo jan you are on point my friend. I doubt many members here would deny the points you made, but we are just football fans, trying to see the best, even if such doesn't exist.

I blame the government for failures as their priorities are elsewhere and therefore, not only football, but almost all other sport/art/etc...will never rich their potential.

[maij]

[zzgloo]

zzgloo jan you are on point my friend. I doubt many members here would deny the points you made, but we are just football fans, trying to see the best, even if such doesn't exist.
I blame the government for failures as their priorities are elsewhere and therefore, not only football, but almost all other sport/art/etc...will never rich their potential.

Dear The-Red ;
I paid attention to posts, by you,maij,and Ali jaan.........and compaired it with my own comments, and realized,that what I conclude,would be same as your post...so, that is to say, it is you,who " are on point ".
although, we may be too oppionnated, and have too much expectations, and although, We should realize, we can not beat everybody,and we should mostly just support.....yet, ali 's point,of our huge mass support, and great enthusiasm, and masive youth talents,which are not common among asian teams should count for something .....we, realisticaly, and even without ,over expectation,should do better, than atleast smaller and new to sport,asian teams >....
And, that can only be explained, by your logic of the routs ,to our problems !!

[Doctor DOOM]

am I happy with what points we've got so far ?
NO.

With 2 points ( 1 from an away game ) shd we panic and think we're out?
NO.


Shd I be expecting high tactical game and cohesion from a team that was formed 2 weeks back ?
NO.

therefore, do I think, assume, believe ( call it what you may ) that with time and enough effort from the staff & players, we SHOULD see a more cohesive, coordinated TM in 2nd June ( coz if we dont, then I declare, here and now, to remove Daei from TM on June 3rd and bring in another coach )?
YES.

Deep down do I believe we will advance, given the present points we have and how the group stands today?
YES.

so shd we suddenly become doom-sayers ?
NOT YET.


lets bear in mind, come June 2nd and if we win , this ONE game will turn the whole group and our campaign around and we'd be in the driving seat.
just ONE game !
I think Daei has to put his best effort and think if he's going to be someone in coaching , ever in his lifetime, THIS ONE GAME is the one that makes or breaks his dream.

so am I making a big deal about this june 2nd game with enough justification?
HELL YES.


( note: I dont say if we dont get the 3 points from this game, we'll be out. coz mathematically, we'd still stand a chance. but anything but a win in this game, makes life EXTREMELY & TREMENDOUSLY HARD for daei and there will be massive pressure against him. that's why I think he has to treat this game as his make-or-break game in coaching )

[Hajagha]

A wiser member than me, ' hajagha ', with his recent posts, made me think, if we are all fooling ourseleves, with what kind of football we realy have:...

Since you mentioned my name (with many thanks for giving me too much of title that ironically is the topic of my post here) I need to clarify where I stand and what I think:

I think, like many other issues in our lives, we spoiled our football with blowing into some empty souls and making them big to look like heros. In this progress, we forgot that they are just some people who mostly don’t have the capacity and prestige to be the center of attention. Of course, we are not the sole nation dealing with this issue. If you live in North America, for instance, you are familiar with some fake/loser celebrities who are nothing but some sour losers.

As I said, we are not exceptional in dealing with side effect of fame/money. In comparison to many other nations who their celebrities are singers/actors/…, our celebrities are our football players. We make them bigger than what they are and our neighboring Arab feed them with loads of money for entertaining. The outcome is simple, we get some fat and lazy sorry a$$ losers who are out of shape and can’t run for 30 minutes. This is like shooting at your foot. These guys are so stupid that they forgot what the original cause of being famous. Man, even the celeb’s in North America, with all their side issues, they still can sing, but our losers forgot for playing football, you need to keep body in shape and practice like maniac.

In conclusion, we are free to blame it on government, mollas or system, we also can nag about lack of management, coaches, and or infrastructure for heaven sake. But none of them explain why our best player (Karimi) and our scorer (Nikki) are obviously fat and the rest of the squad are not match-fit. I bet my life that none of the current players in TM can run 12+ KM.

What can you do about it then? You may bring Arsen Vanger as the coach and Pelatini as the head of IFF and give them the best equipment of the world, but they can not do any thing with a player who is paid millions for doing literally nothing and getting the easy ride from the fans and media.

Asking me what to do? If we have such a scenario in a family, you need to discipline your spoiled children and show them the reality of the outside world. You can always praise them like god, but this doesn’t help them when they face the reality.

So, my suggestion is to throw rotted eggs at these players and boo them. Ban every one who chooses easy money in Gulf countries on hard work and getting into real football arenas. Our TM players are our soldiers, don’t let the losers represent us. Make a distance from these people and yours. But, don’t ban yourself from watching good football. Show them what your expectation is. By watching Iranian football nowadays, you get frustrated easily.

Cheers,

[maij]

Hajagha Jan , although you quite rightly touched on some of the problems of team Melli , I don't think the core of the problem is a fat Nikbakht or a lazy Karimi. BTW that fat Nilbakht has scored one of the most stunning goals in recent TM history while the lazy Karimi was perhaps one of the best players on the field.

If we want to discuss the topic which Bahram has started, with an appropriate header of “Are we fooling ourselves!” it can be easily answered in a simple sentence.

If people/fans/supporters think that Team Melli is or can be invincible, then YES they are fooling themselves.

On the other hand, if one considers the general status of the country, in social terms , economy, culture and people’s behavior and then compare that to football achievements , then one should reach a conclusion that what you see on the field is NOT far from expectation , and neither it is a shock. Hence reality should not be hard to swallow and one is NOT fooling himself in unrealistic dreams or expectations.

Getting rid of a fat Nikki or a Lazy Karimi , will NOT fetch TM trophies or accolades, because in the next bunch of players , we will have another Karimi and Nikki …after all this is Iran , and it is normal to see players lack self-discipline rather than the exception.

Banning Iranian players from playing in Arab leagues (where they can make several folds more money than at home) is a flagrant human right violation to say the least, unethical and cruel. A player , under any system , must have the freedom of work anywhere he wishes to, after all , how would you feel if you are have such restrictions and banned from representing your country unless you follow “Khat Imam” ??!!!! Why do we give ourselves the right to work or live elsewhere while we deny it on others ??

The country’s system is not geared towards progress and success in sport. Systematic and organizational failure, restrictions, twisted priorities will always hinder organized football and prevent it reaching its full potential. The fans themselves, I might add, have played a vast negative role in this shortcoming, after all the Mullahs and the governors have not exactly drifted down from Mars, they are Iranians and part of the same social system and mentalities.

So, as far as I am concerned. I am not fooling myself. I pretty much know the capabilities of Team Melli and the opponents and nothing short a 4-0 loss in Azadi will shock me. Whether one should abandon the support of Team Melli , is an individual decision , but I can’t disagree much on demanding and forcing (!) the team to play better by civilized and acceptable means.

[Hajagha]

Hajagha Jan , although you quite rightly touched on some of the problems of team Melli , I don't think the core of the problem is a fat Nikbakht or a lazy Karimi. BTW that fat Nilbakht has scored one of the most stunning goals in recent TM history while the lazy Karimi was perhaps one of the best players on the field.

If we want to discuss the topic which Bahram has started, with an appropriate header of “Are we fooling ourselves!” it can be easily answered in a simple sentence.

If people/fans/supporters think that Team Melli is or can be invincible, then YES they are fooling themselves.

On the other hand, if one considers the general status of the country, in social terms , economy, culture and people’s behavior and then compare that to football achievements , then one should reach a conclusion that what you see on the field is NOT far from expectation , and neither it is a shock. Hence reality should not be hard to swallow and one is NOT fooling himself in unrealistic dreams or expectations.

Getting rid of a fat Nikki or a Lazy Karimi , will NOT fetch TM trophies or accolades, because in the next bunch of players , we will have another Karimi and Nikki …after all this is Iran , and it is normal to see players lack self-discipline rather than the exception.

Banning Iranian players from playing in Arab leagues (where they can make several folds more money than at home) is a flagrant human right violation to say the least, unethical and cruel. A player , under any system , must have the freedom of work anywhere he wishes to, after all , how would you feel if you are have such restrictions and banned from representing your country unless you follow “Khat Imam” ??!!!! Why do we give ourselves the right to work or live elsewhere while we deny it on others ??

The country’s system is not geared towards progress and success in sport. Systematic and organizational failure, restrictions, twisted priorities will always hinder organized football and prevent it reaching its full potential. The fans themselves, I might add, have played a vast negative role in this shortcoming, after all the Mullahs and the governors have not exactly drifted down from Mars, they are Iranians and part of the same social system and mentalities.

So, as far as I am concerned. I am not fooling myself. I pretty much know the capabilities of Team Melli and the opponents and nothing short a 4-0 loss in Azadi will shock me. Whether one should abandon the support of Team Melli , is an individual decision , but I can’t disagree much on demanding and forcing (!) the team to play better by civilized and acceptable means.

Thanks Majid jan for the input.

As you rightfully mentioned (also I meant the same fashion), our best players are fat and lazy, imagine what we get from the second best. I didn’t mean get rid of these two or any other player and you fix the problem. However, I don’t believe our country condition (economy, management, culture, society, ,…) is the sole root of the problem either.

There are so many other countries in the world as bad if not worse than us in the same categories. Our unique problem is the magnifying the fame problem with that “easy money” offered from Gulf countries with lower expectation from what their money can buy. For instance, Karimi got rewarded for not working hard at Bayern by a Qatari club as his salary got bigger like his body mass. So, what is the message here?

I really don’t understand about “The country’s system is not geared towards progress and success in sport” as we compete with some countries as bad if not worse than us. I am talking about Syria, Bahrain, Kuwait and such. Besides, we have the same gear in Volleyball, handball, karate, taekowando, weight-lifting and other sports with some progress or at least keeping the level. Cinema may be a better example in working under the same “Systematic and organizational failure, restrictions, twisted priorities” and still be able to pull out some of the best in the world.

I really wonder if south American culture/regime/society is better than ours or we are way more behind any African countries including Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. The only difference I see, these little Arab sheikhs being in love with our players (and our girls in different fashion as you may notice when you walk outside there).

I never mentioned banning any player for going to Arab countries, I said banning them for “TM invitation”, I think we don’t violate any freedom or the right of work/live for not inviting any lazy-ar$e to our national team. Let give them a clear message, for ringing the fame-bell really big, you gotta work really hard, and easy ride by sheikhs is not the answer.

This is not abandoning yourself of loving your team, this is more about disciplining them, and this is not an individual decision since we got work together and firm (if we will be able to work together is another dilemma). I bring this to the family example: you won’t be able to discipline your child while the mother of the child keeps showing her love by rewarding/pampering him/her. Of course I don’t mean you by mentioning “you” here. I know you don’t fool yourself.

I see it simple: you love this game, you also love this country. The ultimate love will be your country playing this game.

A question for you: Are you going to watch Iranian game live in next Asian game if they keep playing like this? If the answer is “No”, you’ve already showed your discipline as a fan since you were one of the people showed up in the last few tournoments.

So, my answer to the question “Are we fooling ourselves?” is “Yes, if we keep showing them our satisfaction and support with no expectation”. All the culture, society, economy and many other gears that mentioned (or didn’t mention) will bend around if they will see empty seats and boo from those few filled seats in Azadi stadium. If not, too bad we don’t have the fortune to see both of our loves (country and football) mix together. We gotta watch/love them separately.

Cheers

[zzgloo]

I also like to add to the points brought up.....some in agreement, some not .

The Government is at fault, but not directly , in my opinion.........

Our government, Ironicly, is doing the best it can...in fact, succeeding in sport, and keeping the youth busy, is one of thier most important propaganda machine agendas........, as the whole sport complex of Islamic republic is well supported ( With IR standards ),and draws good budget from the government.......
How ever, while nearly all our clubs, have government budgets assigned to them, ( In football, PP,& SS , more for propaganda purposes ), yet, for example, one of very few,independent clubs, SHIRIN FARAZ , e kermanshah, has asked to get out league, as recent as last week, as they can not support themseleves,not haveing enough for 5 million tooman trips every week to come to tehran,since they have no fiels to play in...
and that is the story of this Governemnt's proffesionalizing the league !! (or any other businesses for that matter ).
So, it is here, where, government is at fault !, BY monapolizing ,the market, they prevent Iran, to ever haveing any independent intuerprises !, hence, no profesionalism...and hence , lack of free market accountebility,efficiencies,.....hence, FAT NIKI
We are not realy at fault, .......as we just had the most stupid movie, ( I forgot its name, it was supposed to be a funny movie )last year, to break the all time record, as best selling moive in Iranioan made movies !!!!
And WHY ?....because, the people have nothing els !, they have absolutly, nothingels, to entertain themselves with !Which explains why we got 85,000 to watch bayern-perspolice, but only 750 to watch paraguay-tugo...as people want entertainment,and not neccessarly football...............hence, the continueing the support, for over-paid , FAT , "" celebreties "", as Hajagha mentioned.
.....................
therefore.
1- It is the Government's fault.
2- it is not people's fault.

.............

[Hajagha]

Majid Jan,

In support of my argument, I wished you were here in Montreal nowadays to see what I am talking about.

To give you a brief background: Montreal arguably is the hockey-mad city in North America with her team being the most decorated team in NHL history. Of course like our Team Melli, it was long time ago that Montrealers seen Stanley Cup live in their own city. Year after Year come and gone and there were a few talk here and there about Montreal Canadien (the name of the team), but watching hockey was part of the routine in this French city, of course not exactly Habs (the name of the team) they were watching.

This year, there were bunch of younger players who are doing fantastic on the ice. Now, you see many cars with Habs flag waiving from the car. The arena tickets price went sky-high. Every one is happy and you can see it from the people face.

I don’t see any difference between Montreal Habs and Team Melli. You do good, I will show up to support, You don’t, then I have better things to do. As simple as this.

Cheers

[maij]

I am beginning to enjoy this thread…

Framarz Jan…I did not elaborate on the “System is not geared up …” because I thought it is a foregone conclusion, apparently it is not.

OK…You have a government that CONTROLS sport & particularly football for reasons well beyond its declared values such good physical condition , health, entertainment and sportsmanship values. These are all side-issue to the main political agenda. And since we agree (I hope) that this government is not the true representative of the people and hardly a democratically elected body , then it is safe to say that you are at the mercy of individuals who WILL decide your destiny in football …decide what club to support , what IFF president to appoint (oh sorry I mean to elect ), and who is going to be your national team coach…Mostly fans and even powerful club chairmen have no or little say , except to tag along.



You have an indiscipline culture, where fans accept the Nikki’s and the Karimi’s because these players are no different to the way the fans themselves behave. They don’t see anything of significance in laziness or extra fat by their beloved players. They consider a player who jokes with the emotion of passengers in an airplane as funny, while elsewhere in the world the guy would be incarcerated and tried. The news of players being suspended for disciplinary reason and then being pardoned after a few kisses on cheeks is a norm in Iran. Fans that throw missiles, stones, misbehave, swear and last but not least damage public transport can not augur well for developing a succesful professional football system.

In players themselves, you have a mentality of egoism and self-esteem. Excelling in Football in Iran is still about how good a player dribbles rather than his ability to be a valuable productive part of the team. Teamwork is hardly on the top of the priorities, and even if the coaches preach teamwork mentality at early ages, it certainly has not really filtered through at senior levels.



A media that has very little credibility and have commercial interest and political propaganda as top of their agenda while fabrication of facts, inaccuracies , spreading lies and creating imaginary interviews are becoming something of a routine.

I have not even started on Mismanagement and poor planning & organizational skills ??? Do you want me to go on ???? Of Course , Not Framarz Jan…most of us here know all that already.

So , what development and progress do you expect from such a system ? I can boldly say , nothing significant , but for the odd success here and there …after all , football is a ***** of a sport , where surprise results is the spice of the game and one factor which makes it so popular and attractive.

I really do not want to compare Iran with another African country, simply because I do not have enough interest or insight on those countries and will only be speculating. AND….comparing football to any other sport in Iran is misleading and in my opinion, inappropriate.

As for the Canadian example , I have no quarrel about it and as I said earlier , it is up to the individual to decide if he is going to support a team or not , based on results or performance, however , there is a huge difference between supporting your National Team and supporting a commercially run Club/Team (perhaps privately owned by a filthy rich millionaire) ..no contest.

To emphasize my point , I have seen very little in the last 3 decades in Iran football to convince me that Iran football at national and club levels should have done much better than what they have achieved….. in another word , I am not fooling myself.

Nevertheless , we as fans must never stop demanding better quality and better results , but before doing that we need to discipline ourselves as well and behave appropriately. In this forum , I see a lot of ridiculing of players and coaches and undermining their efforts, mostly based on emotion and in clear disregard to their efforts (however short of aspiration) We tend to pass judgment & criticism at will without too much consideration to the difficult circumstances that leads to those undesirable results.

Awaiting your response before jumping to the next set of argument on whether we are fooling ourselves or not.

[Ali Chicago]

Without sounding too intellectual (rooshanfekr), I think what we are witnessin in Iranian society (granted I haven''t been there for 23 years) is a passage from a traditional society to a semi western values.

Our sports is going through this transition as well. I remember once I played with the Tehran youth team against Khuzestan youth team in Isfahan ( I think it was 1356). I remember how one of the Abadani player (his name was poor janaki I still remember) was talking about Saleeya (god bless his soul). Or how we learned to resepect mr. Abou Taleb or Rajabali faramarzi from Banke Melli (coach) or Hossein Agha Fekri or Mr. Dehdari was a god like figure in Homa. That was a football based on tradition. Our society was a traditional society. Family was the center. Going away from home and working for more money (even in Shahrestans) for a Tehrani man wasn't very normal.

Today, our soceity and our football as part of the soceity is changed. The so called family unit is under pressure (which isn't bad completely IMO), but instead of it what we are witnessing is a mentality of **** everything to make money.

In the west making money and power is the goal, but at least people realize that they need discipline, effort, organization. In Iran it seems, we want a shortcut (no work, no patience,...) and immediate success.

This is not just our football, it is all over our society. We have a great source to blame as well "Government". While IRI and its stupid policies defeinitly have a huge role in all of this, problme I think is more than mere government.

I remember Khomeini used to say forget about this youth, the kids that are growing up under the IRI are the real result of this so called Islamic reveloution. Wish he could be raised from death and he can see the so called "Islamic reveloution generation".

Once again our country and society is going a fundemenatl change, so does our football.


As Armin (red) put it, ever where in the world fans aren't the most logical crowd. Just this weekend another Italian fan got killed if u follow the football news. So we being passionate and unrealistic isnt' anything different from other fans.

Monday morning quarter backing (as they say in America) is a favorite activity of the fans and we ain't an exception.

[Doctor DOOM]

Forgive me if I question the purpose , or at least the timing of this topic. coz we always tend to bring up nihilistic issues when our teams dont do well. we suddenly become aware or re-discover the many lacks and shortcomings in our football, fans, attitude, foundation, .... you name it.
what does that mean?
does that mean when we beat korea by 4 goals none of these ailments plague our football , and have suddenly been resolved?
NO.

So why we suddenly get melancholic and nihilistic as soon as scores dont go our way? why we start questioning player X or coach Y or club Z at these times only? why dont we do it when the same player, coach, club have beaten or scored or ... in a game?
for once I'd like to see we start topics picking on deficiencies and lacks and weaknesses of players, coaches, clibs, teams, when the TEAM HAS BEATEN SOMEONE BLACK-N-BLUE.
will we ?

Call me cynical, but I agree with majid jan. in the past 3 decades our football has got what it deserved ... more or less, give or take a rank or a trophy here and there. yes, majority of these go back to our shortcomings in many areas. but some of us seem not to have come to terms with it !

I think 3 decades of neglect and refusal to address all these lacks shd have rung the bell for us. shd have resolved the matter in our minds that we will NEVER get our basics right as long as iri is there ( and frankly, I dont think whatever gov't we get later on, will be able to change much about our culture and behavior anyway ).
unless our wealth equals that of Warren Buffett and we are ready to invest about 3-4 Billion $ in our infrastructure PERSONALLY, I say we shd stop talking about it altogether as it gets us nowhere but stress, depression and possible heart attack !

on the other hand, at times, we seem to think the foundation is laid properly and our players, coaches, clubs, fans, ... have to behave like germans or italians or ... !!!

I'm cynical becoz I have come to terms with the combination of "sports" & "iri". it's like oil and water. they just dont mix. so plz dont hold your breath waiting for this gov't to fix things.
we better start treating this as it is: this is what we have, are, can do. nothing more. dont get too depressed in case of failure and dont get euphoric when we succeed.

That's why I'd rather talk about smaller stuff like what player X did, or how coach Y reacted or ... . things that stand a chance of change.
Only the small scale and micro level management can be achieved in iri. nothing MACRO will succeed or be given room to initiate even !

===========


and while you all are in a forgiving mood, plz forgive my first post, which is horribly irrelevant to the topic.

and I place the blame on a certain russian friend of mine, a gentleman called Smirnoff. He is often the devil behind much mischief and incoherent posts of mine. he visits my home, entices me with worldly pleasures, and then when he's got me inebriated well, he sits behind my comp and types such posts.
bad boy. bad, bad ... BAD boy !

[Hajagha]

I am beginning to enjoy this thread…

Framarz Jan…I did not elaborate on the “System is not geared up …” because I thought it is a foregone conclusion, apparently it is not.

OK…You have a government that CONTROLS sport & particularly football for reasons well beyond its declared values such good physical condition , health, entertainment and sportsmanship values. These are all side-issue to the main political agenda. And since we agree (I hope) that this government is not the true representative of the people and hardly a democratically elected body , then it is safe to say that you are at the mercy of individuals who WILL decide your destiny in football …decide what club to support , what IFF president to appoint (oh sorry I mean to elect ), and who is going to be your national team coach…Mostly fans and even powerful club chairmen have no or little say , except to tag along.



You have an indiscipline culture, where fans accept the Nikki’s and the Karimi’s because these players are no different to the way the fans themselves behave. They don’t see anything of significance in laziness or extra fat by their beloved players. They consider a player who jokes with the emotion of passengers in an airplane as funny, while elsewhere in the world the guy would be incarcerated and tried. The news of players being suspended for disciplinary reason and then being pardoned after a few kisses on cheeks is a norm in Iran. Fans that throw missiles, stones, misbehave, swear and last but not least damage public transport can not augur well for developing a succesful professional football system.

In players themselves, you have a mentality of egoism and self-esteem. Excelling in Football in Iran is still about how good a player dribbles rather than his ability to be a valuable productive part of the team. Teamwork is hardly on the top of the priorities, and even if the coaches preach teamwork mentality at early ages, it certainly has not really filtered through at senior levels.



A media that has very little credibility and have commercial interest and political propaganda as top of their agenda while fabrication of facts, inaccuracies , spreading lies and creating imaginary interviews are becoming something of a routine.

I have not even started on Mismanagement and poor planning & organizational skills ??? Do you want me to go on ???? Of Course , Not Framarz Jan…most of us here know all that already.

So , what development and progress do you expect from such a system ? I can boldly say , nothing significant , but for the odd success here and there …after all , football is a ***** of a sport , where surprise results is the spice of the game and one factor which makes it so popular and attractive.

I really do not want to compare Iran with another African country, simply because I do not have enough interest or insight on those countries and will only be speculating. AND….comparing football to any other sport in Iran is misleading and in my opinion, inappropriate.

As for the Canadian example , I have no quarrel about it and as I said earlier , it is up to the individual to decide if he is going to support a team or not , based on results or performance, however , there is a huge difference between supporting your National Team and supporting a commercially run Club/Team (perhaps privately owned by a filthy rich millionaire) ..no contest.

To emphasize my point , I have seen very little in the last 3 decades in Iran football to convince me that Iran football at national and club levels should have done much better than what they have achieved….. in another word , I am not fooling myself.

Nevertheless , we as fans must never stop demanding better quality and better results , but before doing that we need to discipline ourselves as well and behave appropriately. In this forum , I see a lot of ridiculing of players and coaches and undermining their efforts, mostly based on emotion and in clear disregard to their efforts (however short of aspiration) We tend to pass judgment & criticism at will without too much consideration to the difficult circumstances that leads to those undesirable results.

Awaiting your response before jumping to the next set of argument on whether we are fooling ourselves or not.

Thanks Majid jan for very well written post. I don’t have any argument for every single word you mentioned about Iran, the government, society and all other shortcomings. I accept them all, hands down.

My case starts where you refused to compare Iran with other countries because of lack insight evidence and interest. Well, I don’t agree with this. It is not that hard to dig around the world and check what the other people doing nowadays, it’s just a few clicks away. Besides, we are competing in a region that you, particularly, have the firsthand news as the residence and familiar with the local language. For god sake, we were in the hand of a team which its football is at the edge of being banned by FIFA for government influence to its federation (Kuwait), sounds familiar? The whole region’s role model is Saudi Arabia where women can not even drive. Do you want me to go on and on in African region and South and center America? It’s just a few clicks away to get the most insight news. Thanks to globalization.

Majid jan, I think Ali agha-e Chicago has a point. If you read his post, you see we both saying the same thing. We are in a transition period, and as a result, whether we like it or not we have to face the consequence of it. Money, fans and media are part of football. Every thing is getting faster and harsher. I am pretty sure we will lose lots of interest in above three mentioned factors if our players becoming chubbier and lazier. People don’t wait for Karimi any more to catch his breath when they have C. Ronaldo to watch at the same time in another channel.

Giving the credit to you, I totally agree that a good management can forecast and guide this wave (globalization and modernization) and get the best out of it.

For example, I think we need a celebrity that the young kids can look up to him and cheer. If we don’t, they will do it any way and we may end up with some one disgraceful.

So, to learn from the others (particularly in football), I totally like the British way of handling the issue. Man UTD is the first club made a manager its icon and support him in good and bad days and now trying to retire him at his highest level. Some thing the world has never seen it yet. Is that means Fergosen never made mistake? No. Is that means he is still on top of the modern football after 20 years? No, but they kept him as the symbol. Giving him the best aids and let him become the celebrity of the club. They hired the best football analyzers, trainers and many more to assist him. He is just the icon to shape the media and beloved by the fans. Arsenal copied this, now most of the big clubs trying to find a person who can handle the pressure of fame/money and doesn’t lose his character.

Either we like it or not, other nations’ national teams are mostly like big clubs in Europe, they need to make some one too big and gather the fans around that icon, then try to be on top of the fans/media wave and guide them.

Example, imagine if we can keep Daei (or any one else) as our icon and bring whatever assistance he needs, give him the job security and tell him that you will retire in this position as long as you keep your prestige and coolness…. And fans accept this fact (which is going to be a very bumpy road)…. Do you think we will see any players like what we see in this era in the team? 70-80% of the team already invited to the team no matter how will be the manager, why? Because no manager is able to handle the media and fans and passing his job evaluation at the same time.

Actually we have a very good example of making a successful celebrity in Iran who was very influential in our football. His name is “Ferdosi-pour”. He has never been democrat, he has never been knowledgeable either, but he was on top of our football and he could have shaped it any way he wanted (or was told). Fans love him and listen to him, the whole football body acted to not blamed by him. Imagine he was saying all Gulf region players are lazy and should not been invited to the Team Melli (no matter who thought this to him), he easily could have shown a few clips of previous look of Karimi/Nikki and current Karimi/Nikki, a few clips from players walking in minute 60 and so on. He knows how to support his argument. I am sure every one accepts the fact.

Believe me my friend, being over a decade in North America and still waiting to see a true democracy. Here, it’s all about handling the society and managing the media wave. They just passed the transition we are passing now.

Cheers,