Professionalism!

[Ali Chicago]

One thing that I reject from the Persian culture is what I call "Worshiping and glorifying individuals" ...We always tend to look for heroes and leaders letting them decide our destiny and future.

In our culture , we still prefer for someone else to do the thinking and decision for us. We don't read the Quran but let Ayotollah folan folan interpret what is right and what is wrong for us although we can open the book ourselves and read.

During the old days with the literacy level being low , that would have been an acceptable practice , not anymore.

Same thing with political leaders and I dread to say , national heroes, we blindly follow them without using our own intelligence to decide if the man is talking sense or nonsense.

Glorifying individuals is an ancient practice that is still very much alive in this society. Human beings are elevated to sacred levels and by God , no one is perfect as the almighty.

Maij jaan,

Isn't this a human characteristics in genearl and nothing specifically Iranian? Look at Veladimir Putin in Russia today how all the Russian go ga ga over him. See Goergy Bush in America, how he was revered after Sep 11 and Mission Accompolished back ni 2003 to today. I think what u listed is a human being flaw rather than something specifically Iranian.

[Ali Chicago]

No need at all Ali jan to be sorry, after all this is a serious discussion in F+ which is supposed to be a place for just that...more serious discussion and I thank you for your input and the opportunity for myself and many others to discuss and learn.
I agree with you on those points about us and the rest of the so called under developed countries falling behind as a result of what you mentioned.
The thing is living outside Iran brings the opportunity to meet people and ethnicities from different parts of the world and puts you in a more objective position so you can better observe and compare.
I have for many years seen and continue to see that in a foreign environment, other people and ethnicities support and back each other up, help each other making a collective effort which means they can survive and develope outside their home turf in a foregin society, while at the same time I see us iranians take the first best chance we get to stick it up to each other and stab each other in the back. While others back up and help each other climb, we trick and pull down one another for the sake of the slightest personal gain at the cost of another fellow contryman.
A very simple example reflecting the bigger picture is our gatherings and celebrations. I myself appart from my daily job as a computer tech also am a pro musician working with both iranian and non-iranain artists and during the many iranian concerts I've played at around the world, I've seen that you mostly can not have more than 10 different iranians gathered in one place without them starting to fight and make trouble!
While others gather to party and enjoy themselves, we even turn a joyful and entertaining even into a fight because of our disfunctional behaviour as a group and believe me when I say that in most cases even no alchohol is involved which would be the most contributing factor in these kinds of cases.


.

I don't know your first name, so have to settle for Purple Haze Jaan. I totally agree with everything you said no argument there. My point was let's understand the cause and effect here. When one understands the underlying issue then he/she can at least explain to some degree why it is happening.
For example you mentioned that we are not working together, which is true. Having said that, you got to consider two things.

1- We iranians are a very young immigrant nation. Compare us to East Indians that for more than 300 years (at teh begining brought out by British colonists). They have learned as a nation after all this time it is better workding together. A lot of us still dream about one day going bacak and live in Iran (which I promise for most of us won't happen even if the current regime is gone). Nevertheles, the whole psychic of first generation Iranian immigrant is still different from most other immigrants. Iran was an independent country for more than 2200 years of its 2500 history. This makes us a very proud people. So even when we come to US or Europe, it is not like we have come to Heaven (if it is we don't want to admit it at least). comapre that with an immigrant from Pakistan, India or even Russia. When they come here, they proudly identify themselves as American, but to the date despite having a second citizenship most of us idenitfy ourselves as Iranian or Persian. This pride and nationalisem helped us to survive Arab's, Greec, Moguls, Ottaman invasions and withstand for most degree the overtake of Iran by Brits and Russians. So that pride that is with us, for most part, slows down our integration in the new country.

Second issue is the whole 1357 revolution. It is still a huge wedging issue for the first generation Iranians (like me). Some of us have nostalgy for the Pahalavi regime, some think it was a bad system, Mossadagh, oil nationalization, 1953 Coup de tat, ...... . People like you ( I assume you are younger than my generation here) and your generation who were born or at least raised outside Iran and dont' have the same baggage are much more immune to all these. Look at all the student organization of Iranians in the universites. They function very well at leaste comaprable with other ethnic students!!!

The other issue is neighbors grass is always greener. I played football with other ethnic teams (Chilean, El Salvador, Ecuador, Italians, Germans,....), beleive me, when you are inside you see they have more or less the same issues.

Can or should we do better? Of course we should. It all goes back to what I said in my first post. Time it takes to learn new behaviors and overcome old wounds of dictatorshiops that for most part has ruled Iran for 2500 years. We as a nation always were told what to do and if we didn't follow, we were severly punished. We as a nation haven't seen democracy (a few years here and there), so we haven't learned about personal responsibilty, tolerance, etc, etc. But give us time. If one characterisctics I consider specific to Iranian nation is it is our adaptability. We are proud and kick and scream, but we adapt well. Your and my grand paretns did the same thing to Arabs and Mogul rulers. In US at least, the Iranins are the amongst the most educated, most income , etc. etc among the immigrants. Give us time and we will improve in working togther as well. As you truly mentioned, we Iranian immigrants have a big responsibilty. To take these new ideas and new way of thinking back to our imprisoned comaptriots who are in a big prison called Iran right now. To let them see there are other ways. Internet, Sattelite TV broke the barriers and our comaptriots inside Iran see things. I am waiting for wind of change in Iran. It has already happened inside Iran. I would have never imagined a pop music concert or Philharmonic music group in Iran under the IRI regime. But it happened. Give us time and be patient. Change isn't happening as fast as we like, but change is happening.

[purple_haze]

Agree about education and everythign you said. However you should realize in 14-15 centruy when Printing technology was introdcued in Europe, it became a catalizor for knowledge transfer which led to progress and eventual renasiance in Europe. At that time, we as Iranian and rest of the countries in teh middle east (even Ottaman Empire) fall behind. We missed the Rennasiance, 200 years of religious wars between Catholics and Protestants which in a way paved the way for the seperation of church and state and eventually to the French reveloution.

Dada, when they say we are a less developed country, it is not just the size of the highrises and factories and technologies. It is even more, it is in the level of thinking and acting of individual memebers of our society. Religion, lack of independent thinking, disrespecting individual freedom, the way we treat our women, tolerance, etc. etc.

Sorry didn't mean to get all serious on you. I tried to show you that, all of these problems are part of the social science and it is nto like they came out of nothing.

No need at all Ali jan to be sorry, after all this is a serious discussion in F+ which is supposed to be a place for just that...more serious discussion and I thank you for your input and the opportunity for myself and many others to discuss and learn.
I agree with you on those points about us and the rest of the so called under developed countries falling behind as a result of what you mentioned.
The thing is living outside Iran brings the opportunity to meet people and ethnicities from different parts of the world and puts you in a more objective position so you can better observe and compare.
I have for many years seen and continue to see that in a foreign environment, other people and ethnicities support and back each other up, help each other making a collective effort which means they can survive and develope outside their home turf in a foregin society, while at the same time I see us iranians take the first best chance we get to stick it up to each other and stab each other in the back. While others back up and help each other climb, we trick and pull down one another for the sake of the slightest personal gain at the cost of another fellow contryman.
A very simple example reflecting the bigger picture is our gatherings and celebrations. I myself appart from my daily job as a computer tech also am a pro musician working with both iranian and non-iranain artists and during the many iranian concerts I've played at around the world, I've seen that you mostly can not have more than 10 different iranians gathered in one place without them starting to fight and make trouble!
While others gather to party and enjoy themselves, we even turn a joyful and entertaining even into a fight because of our disfunctional behaviour as a group and believe me when I say that in most cases even no alchohol is involved which would be the most contributing factor in these kinds of cases.

One thing that I reject from the Persian culture is what I call "Worshiping and glorifying individuals" ...We always tend to look for heroes and leaders letting them decide our destiny and future.

In our culture , we still prefer for someone else to do the thinking and decision for us. We don't read the Quran but let Ayotollah folan folan interpret what is right and what is wrong for us although we can open the book ourselves and read.

During the old days with the literacy level being low , that would have been an acceptable practice , not anymore.

Same thing with political leaders and I dread to say , national heroes, we blindly follow them without using our own intelligence to decide if the man is talking sense or nonsense.

Glorifying individuals is an ancient practice that is still very much alive in this society. Human beings are elevated to sacred levels and by God , no one is perfect as the almighty.

Exactly Majid jan. Another annoying thing about our mentality apart from the usual "Bari be har jahat" and "sare ham bandi" is partly connected to what you are saying. The way we handle many things and among them even religion is hypocritical.
We have so many people with double standards, somehow caught in between. They drink, they commit adultery and do so many other things prohibited by their religion, only to turn into a strict religious character all of a sudden. Double standards exist anywhere and so does deception, but in the cases I mentioned it's kind of rooted and comes naturally to them. I personally have known many who really don't just pretend to be one or the other, but have both integrated into them co-existing naturally!
They practice many islamic and arabic laws without even really believing in them! The reason I'm saying arabic is because most if it was implemented and in reality works and suits best in those societies.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jan thanks for your kind words and I certainly didn't mean it's all doom and gloom either with no progression at all, because if such was the case the country would be in total ruins.
!

You are welcome and what I said wasn't Irani Taaroof. I really meant it.

But everything is relative and the pace in which the progression is being made in relation to where the world stands and where the country with all it's resourses must be, doesn't look too well.

What I mean is more down to the individual level and the responsibilities and shortcomings we have as individuals in and towards the society.


We have never had the work ethics that for example the japanese have. We always put ourselves ahead in every situation, being too selfish to be able to function properly in a larger group and serve it right, even when it means benefiting from it at the end. But we usually don't like to think that long ahead and prefer short term profits.
!

Of course everything is relative, but dada please consider the fact that a human being is in large part the product of its environment. For example let's look at the concept of Punctuality. For a farmer that can go anytime he wants to work and anytime he likes he can leave work, the whole concept of punctuality is hard to comprehend. For a guy who all his life worked in a factory and had to clock in right before say 8 AM or else he got fined, concept of punctuality is much easier to learn.

Or say collective work, again the same example, when you work on a production line where your work is a small piece of a production belt, you see with your own eyes that you need to work with others within a system. Comapre that to the owner a small shop or our earlier farmer example.

An American school kid since first grade realizes that at 8:05 school bus comes and picks him up and if he isn't there he will miss the bus. Do you see how the concept of punctuality is engrained in people since early childhood. Let's assume there was a similar system in Iran. Due to traffic or lack of planning or maintenance on the bus, school bus one day would have come at 8 anotehr day 8:10 etc. etc.

Do you see my point here? Our personality and culture in large part is being impacted by the social formation in our society. So we Iranians for the most part are the product of the social formation in Iran.

As for another example look at the Woman equality issue. The whole thing started when capitalisem needed woman to come out of the house and work in the factory. When they got moeny and economic independence they started to ask for more equal rights. So the whole women suffarge, equality and feminisem in large part started with teh changes in the social formation. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying feminist leaders and people had no role here. They had and all, but do you see the cause and effect here?

Ofcourse one major reason is the lack of education and awareness which leads to being a tool in the hands of others. For god knows how many years have we blindly been lead and told what to do by big talkers with a beard and a cape, which is one of the only rare and unseen occasions we act as a group? Even other cultures have suffered from this, right, but many have put it behind them for hundreds of years, while we still continue to do so.
I would be very intrested to have the opportunity and time, to be able to compare big, ancient societies and cultures and their fate throughout the history in a more detailed level, because what I know about ourselves is that we've always lost many things throughout history due to treason from one of our own and this due to what I wrote above, the greed and selfishness of a few individuals leading to the demise of the rest and it still keeps happening over and over again. Our mentality has put us in an evil loop!

Agree about education and everythign you said. However you should realize in 14-15 centruy when Printing technology was introdcued in Europe, it became a catalizor for knowledge transfer which led to progress and eventual renasiance in Europe. At that time, we as Iranian and rest of the countries in teh middle east (even Ottaman Empire) fall behind. We missed the Rennasiance, 200 years of religious wars between Catholics and Protestants which in a way paved the way for the seperation of church and state and eventually to the French reveloution.

Dada, when they say we are a less developed country, it is not just the size of the highrises and factories and technologies. It is even more, it is in the level of thinking and acting of individual memebers of our society. Religion, lack of independent thinking, disrespecting individual freedom, the way we treat our women, tolerance, etc. etc.

Sorry didn't mean to get all serious on you. I tried to show you that, all of these problems are part of the social science and it is nto like they came out of nothing.

[maij]

One thing that I reject from the Persian culture is what I call "Worshiping and glorifying individuals" ...We always tend to look for heroes and leaders letting them decide our destiny and future.

In our culture , we still prefer for someone else to do the thinking and decision for us. We don't read the Quran but let Ayotollah folan folan interpret what is right and what is wrong for us although we can open the book ourselves and read.

During the old days with the literacy level being low , that would have been an acceptable practice , not anymore.

Same thing with political leaders and I dread to say , national heroes, we blindly follow them without using our own intelligence to decide if the man is talking sense or nonsense.

Glorifying individuals is an ancient practice that is still very much alive in this society. Human beings are elevated to sacred levels and by God , no one is perfect as the almighty.

[purple_haze]

It is not all gloom and doom in Iran. I myself being from older generation of Iranians, when I compare myself and my generation to this generation, I see improvement. When I was your age, I didnt' have half the wisdom that you and many like you (yashar comes to mind or Agha Kasra) display in this forum.

Dont' want to act wise and know it all or paint an American Disney world picture of situation in Iran, but progress is happening in Iran, despite what many of these fascite mullahs are doing and before that many of Iranian rulers did.

To put my two cents, Capitalisem exist in Iran, as still there are feudalisem and many other social formation (in Baluchistan, for example there are people who work for the Khans and almost being treated like slaves not even getting paid, but live in Khan's house and being taken cared by the Khan).

What ZZ mentions about no competition in Iran and employers being scared of their employees, may exist in isolated cases (but that isn't the prelevent). There are millions of workers that right now live in Iran and work and still haven't being paid for a year. I am talking their salary hasn't been paid after a year.

Ali jan thanks for your kind words and I certainly didn't mean it's all doom and gloom either with no progression at all, because if such was the case the country would be in total ruins.

But everything is relative and the pace in which the progression is being made in relation to where the world stands and where the country with all it's resourses must be, doesn't look too well.

What I mean is more down to the individual level and the responsibilities and shortcomings we have as individuals in and towards the society.

We have never had the work ethics that for example the japanese have. We always put ourselves ahead in every situation, being too selfish to be able to function properly in a larger group and serve it right, even when it means benefiting from it at the end. But we usually don't like to think that long ahead and prefer short term profits.

Ofcourse one major reason is the lack of education and awareness which leads to being a tool in the hands of others. For god knows how many years have we blindly been lead and told what to do by big talkers with a beard and a cape, which is one of the only rare and unseen occasions we act as a group? Even other cultures have suffered from this, right, but many have put it behind them for hundreds of years, while we still continue to do so.
I would be very intrested to have the opportunity and time, to be able to compare big, ancient societies and cultures and their fate throughout the history in a more detailed level, because what I know about ourselves is that we've always lost many things throughout history due to treason from one of our own and this due to what I wrote above, the greed and selfishness of a few individuals leading to the demise of the rest and it still keeps happening over and over again. Our mentality has put us in an evil loop!

[Ali Chicago]

Ali e Aziz ;....................How I defined Capitalism,was what we were told,by our teacher,in The Gov. class we had,during my school years.
Iranian system, can be described in many different ways,but capitalism is not among them .It is extremly unique........what ever it is, it is defenetly not consistant.
Capitalism,not only brings profesionalism, but also ,it brings " Civilization ".people will be so profesional,...they come to believe in such things as, profesional Morality...and business ethics...............
It is no longer,cuting the lively-hood of a family of an fired employee, but , it will be matter of being unfair to the more qualified.
With the help of Law,and Civilization:More demand from an employee, will lead to more expectation from empolyer......
My main point is, All profesionalism, Civilization,and capitalism, are far more dominant,than either religon,or culture..............,although They will finaly learn to co-exist.

Bahram Jaan;

I dont' know which school you went to in US. But even among the schools who teach public administration there are several school of thoughts. For example The school of Public adminastrtaion in Chicago is amongst the most ultra right/conservatives in the public adminsitration and policies. If you go to South and Latin America and talk to their intellectual they will talk about the so called "Chicago boy". These were the graduate of chicago who went and work with Pinochette in Chille and built the econemy there. Despite US governemtn even kept some distance from Pincohette after the human right violations.

What you are refering too are different degrees of protection within a capitalist system that Agha Majid pointed to in his last post. In European countries for example every one from the start 6 weeks of paid vacation (as far as I know). In US you start with 2 weeks and after years and years u can get 3 and I think at max is 4 weeks of paid vacation. So due to strong labor movements in Europe they enjoy better benefit. Bosses can't fire people right away etc. etc.

Situation in Iran isn't the same as Europe though. In Iran due to the income that governemnt obtain from Oil, has a very unique economy that some of the basic premises of Capitalsiem at times (profitability etc.) are underminied for political means. As it is, this thread has been diverted away from its original post, so I won't write more about the impact of Oil Economy. If you would like we can talk about it in PM or offline, so other folks don't get bored with these stuff.

[zzgloo]

Bahram Jaan;
With all the due respect, that is not the defenition of capitalisem. As a matter of fact government in a capitalist system, controls, interfere and even serves the capitalisem. It is in service of the capitalists. Governement defines the system, framework, legal system, laws, police, army to help, serve and defened capitalisem.
Do I need to remind you that current government of US serves and as you said interferes in business. How do you explain the breakup of AT&T in 1984? How do you explain the Anti Trust laws in the US. I don't think anyone can claim that US system isn't a capitalist system.
Do you want anther example outside USA? How abotu CANADA? NAFTA was in favor of financial and insurance industry in Canada but hurt the manufacturing section of Canada's economy. But at the end, NAFATA was signed, since the Banks and insurance companies at the end wanted access to US market. As you can see the government by signing NAFTA sided with the insurance and banks and agaisnt the manufacturing section of Canadain economy.
Another example? How about how British government kept the value of Pound high after the second world War. This meant financial institues in Engalnd didnt' loose money, but it bankrupted the manufacturing and export industries in the England.
Defention of a capitalist system is a system in which those who have access to capital can enjoy the services of the government and favorable lawas and institution to generate wealth for themselves and hopefully!!! pay taxes to the government. That is why nowadays you see a lot of US based comapneis have an office in Kayman Island (to pay less or no taxes).
I beleive what you are refering in Iran is lack of rule of law, where governement doesn't observe the law of the country. This is a deep issue in Iran, and even during Qajareeyeh Mirza Molkem Khan has mentioned this. This lack of rule of law is mainly due to despotisem and dictatorship that has ruled in Iran across centuries. Even Marx mentions this system in his book as "Asian Production Model". In which government (in part due to the irrigation system in old days) rules every aspects of the society. Compare this with the feudal system in Europe in which a local Feudal ruled its own area. Anyhow, I don't want to get too involved into the whole sociology of this, but tried to clarify a few points.

Ali e Aziz ;....................How I defined Capitalism,was what we were told,by our teacher,in The Gov. class we had,during my school years.
Iranian system, can be described in many different ways,but capitalism is not among them .It is extremly unique........what ever it is, it is defenetly not consistant.
Capitalism,not only brings profesionalism, but also ,it brings " Civilization ".people will be so profesional,...they come to believe in such things as, profesional Morality...and business ethics...............
It is no longer,cuting the lively-hood of a family of an fired employee, but , it will be matter of being unfair to the more qualified.
With the help of Law,and Civilization:More demand from an employee, will lead to more expectation from empolyer......
My main point is, All profesionalism, Civilization,and capitalism, are far more dominant,than either religon,or culture..............,although They will finaly learn to co-exist.

[maij]

Very nice Ali Jan , I couldn't agree more.
What Bahram mentioned about the extra/excessive employees protection by the government , is not unique or exclusive to Iran. Our good friends the British excel in that. In fact , to my knowledge , the US is probably one of the very few countries that a boss can say your fired as easy as he drinks his glass of water.

[Ali Chicago]

There is no Capitalism in Iran................we should remmember,the defenition of the capitalism,as I stated it earlier...." GOVERNMENT DOES NOT INTEFIER IN BUSINESS ""`
.

Bahram Jaan;

With all the due respect, that is not the defenition of capitalisem. As a matter of fact government in a capitalist system, controls, interfere and even serves the capitalisem. It is in service of the capitalists. Governement defines the system, framework, legal system, laws, police, army to help, serve and defened capitalisem.

Do I need to remind you that current government of US serves and as you said interferes in business. How do you explain the breakup of AT&T in 1984? How do you explain the Anti Trust laws in the US. I don't think anyone can claim that US system isn't a capitalist system.

Do you want anther example outside USA? How abotu CANADA? NAFTA was in favor of financial and insurance industry in Canada but hurt the manufacturing section of Canada's economy. But at the end, NAFATA was signed, since the Banks and insurance companies at the end wanted access to US market. As you can see the government by signing NAFTA sided with the insurance and banks and agaisnt the manufacturing section of Canadain economy.

Another example? How about how British government kept the value of Pound high after the second world War. This meant financial institues in Engalnd didnt' loose money, but it bankrupted the manufacturing and export industries in the England.

Defention of a capitalist system is a system in which those who have access to capital can enjoy the services of the government and favorable lawas and institution to generate wealth for themselves and hopefully!!! pay taxes to the government. That is why nowadays you see a lot of US based comapneis have an office in Kayman Island (to pay less or no taxes).

I beleive what you are refering in Iran is lack of rule of law, where governement doesn't observe the law of the country. This is a deep issue in Iran, and even during Qajareeyeh Mirza Molkem Khan has mentioned this. This lack of rule of law is mainly due to despotisem and dictatorship that has ruled in Iran across centuries. Even Marx mentions this system in his book as "Asian Production Model". In which government (in part due to the irrigation system in old days) rules every aspects of the society. Compare this with the feudal system in Europe in which a local Feudal ruled its own area. Anyhow, I don't want to get too involved into the whole sociology of this, but tried to clarify a few points.

[zzgloo]

There is no Capitalism in Iran................we should remmember,the defenition of the capitalism,as I stated it earlier...." GOVERNMENT DOES NOT INTEFIER IN BUSINESS ""`
What we have in Iran, is all government....................look at IFF as example.......all teams,are hideing the fact,the government is the owner, and decision maker...either directly, or through a company own by government, or ,an owner assignend by government.
Everybody's Job is secoured !!,there is no fear !!,defenetly no fear of lack of out put, may be only, fear of not haveing stong connections in the system.
When I used to live in mexico,my mexican friend in mexico used to tell me,that mexicans are very lazy,they called and critisize thier own culture,and used to say : " somos flujos " or " juegones "....but, I told them ,the mexicans in USA,are known as hard workers......as we Iranians in USA,are not lazy or inefficient either...............which tells me, it is all " the system ".

[Ali Chicago]

Well the thing is, us being iranians and how we are, we usually can't follow a distinctive path without diverting left and right and wanting to have it all. Because of this, right now in the chaotic system reigning in Iran, Capitalism and Government control actually co-inside, as crazy at it sounds! Both are present, but in true iranian manner, none of them are executed properly!

Beside, the competition factor that you mention, is indeed fundamental for progression, but then, yet again we have to deal with the iranian version of competition, which means, instead of trying harder and improving yourself to reach the top, you don't spend your energy for improvment, instead you concentrate it fully on destructive competition. You do whatever it takes to prevent other people's success.

You say " Either lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way " but with us it's usually " Everyone wants to lead, but in talking and not actuall action. Nobody wants to follow, but we all follow whoever talks bigger and finally we all just get in each other's way".

It is not all gloom and doom in Iran. I myself being from older generation of Iranians, when I compare myself and my generation to this generation, I see improvement. When I was your age, I didnt' have half the wisdom that you and many like you (yashar comes to mind or Agha Kasra) display in this forum.

Dont' want to act wise and know it all or paint an American Disney world picture of situation in Iran, but progress is happening in Iran, despite what many of these fascite mullahs are doing and before that many of Iranian rulers did.

To put my two cents, Capitalisem exist in Iran, as still there are feudalisem and many other social formation (in Baluchistan, for example there are people who work for the Khans and almost being treated like slaves not even getting paid, but live in Khan's house and being taken cared by the Khan).

What ZZ mentions about no competition in Iran and employers being scared of their employees, may exist in isolated cases (but that isn't the prelevent). There are millions of workers that right now live in Iran and work and still haven't being paid for a year. I am talking their salary hasn't been paid after a year.

[zzgloo]

I don't really remember that argument , but I believe Purple Haze answered the question perfectly.

If I need to add , and I think everyone knows that anyway, capitalisms exist in Iran , so is free market , but according to criteria set by the government.

Major enterprises such as NIOC and Mes Sar cheshme are independently run companies , but owned by the government!

Dear maij,and Dear purple_haze................
(By the way, maij jaan,it was about two years ago,during an argument we had,and a post,.......which the age issue came up )
You both say,which is true,that Iranian mentality is of " MAN ",that is " I ",..and every body plays his own song..............and you say we already have capitalism in Iran..............
to answer that, I must say, that NO, we do not have Capitalism in Iran,no....
first, if you ask people who live in Iran, and ask business owners, ..you will see, every body is very afraid of thier employees,as they are extremly spoiled,and ask for pention,insurance, time off,benefits,etc,as govenment is so behind them..and look at the issue,as if you are cutting the livelyhood of a family....all the time, and more importantly, there is something " Non-exitance",in Iranian work enviroment.....and it is so vital to capitalism....and that is "" Fireing "...
In Iran, No body gets fired, every body gets job for life..............in USA,avarage people change jobs,at least 10 times in thier lives, if not 50.
In Iran,No manager has the guts to say to thier empolyees, to get the **** out !
In Iran, the government, has hand in all fireing,and hireing.....
And, the core,nature of capitalism....is........"" Fireing ".....it may sound simple, but it is so fundemental !!
And, once, the fear of geting fired is part of dayly life,in all levels,... there will be no more " MAN " !!
In USA,they call it accountability !!!

[maij]

One more thing....

As it stands now , football clubs CAN NOT be totally run independently and purely based on commercial basis.

There must be a major over haul to do that. Can you imagine Paykan or Saipa among many other teams, depending on match reciept and commercials to sustain the team......???

[maij]

I may be the oldest member here, Actualy once,maij,challeneged me on that,but he back downed !!......I also have done all kinds of managements in my life.................
To cut the story, there is one answer,to profesionalism,and that is .....CAPITALISM,and its pure kind............
If you look up in dictionary,it means, when government does does not interefier in bussiness..............
When, businesses,are privetly owned,and are free, they compete,and they would demeand,efficient out put,then,you get to have massive fireing for lack of efficiencies, then you get people to live, with ..the pholosophy of....::
" Either lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way " !!!
This will take time, but it is the only way, to better management, and better work ethics, and uIltimately, proffesionalism !!

I don't really remember that argument , but I believe Purple Haze answered the question perfectly.

If I need to add , and I think everyone knows that anyway, capitalisms exist in Iran , so is free market , but according to criteria set by the government.

Major enterprises such as NIOC and Mes Sar cheshme are independently run companies , but owned by the government!