Iraqi Phonomenon

[Ali Chicago]

I am really puzzled with this Iraqi phenomenon. I don't follow Iraqi football but from what I recall, they had three major success past 4 years.

• Success in Olympic 2004
• Sucess in the socalled "Gulf cup" probably our Persian gulf based members can correct me here, but they lost to KSA on a dive by Yasar Alghhatani and PK.
• In WAFF they lost to us in final but they could have won that too. They kept our team at bay for the whole second half.
• And now AFC final.

Is there something more than the so called "Ghayrat" behind their success? In football coaching they disect the abstract noting of "Ghayrat" to player motivation "desire" and effort.
This is probably a very deep discussion about human motivation and how hardship brings the best out in human beings.

I am by no means advocationg we should ruin the country like Iraq so our football do well. But something to think about. I really don't know the answer and looking forward to contribution from members.

How important is the role of player's motivation and effort in the game. In the trenches of fighting for every 50-50 ball coach isn't there to cheer him on. Role of 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or starting X vs Y. It is just pure desire and effort. The same two factors, I suspect made Ando the hero in WC2006, whereas a lot of our Marqui players didn't perform.

In summary, with Iraqi's football success stories I listed above, what can be concluded? Civial war, invasion, internal conflict even among federation and players (Emad Reza was just allowed back to their TM and Ahmad Kazem (who plays in Paas) is still banned from Iraq's team melli by their federation, sicne they claimed federation members were bribed by Saudies.).

How come they are doing so well? Are the two factores of player's motivation and effort can be so detremental? Or is it just a fluke (a historic anamoly)?

This thread by no means is an effort to undermine the role of the system, infrastrucutre, good coaching, or trying indirectly to push the Iran's elimination in quarter final under the rug. I am just fascinated and keep thinking about this for a week now.

If the role of desire and effort is so important, how to apply this to our Iranian national team situation? Stop inviting European based players for a while and rely on domestic talents? Easy questions to pose, hard to find an answer!!!!

[zzgloo]

Ali e aziz..................
I want to give my two cents, to your profound thread !!!, I do it here, as we also exchanged some ideas, in the other thread....
I put aside my own idea, regarding ""long traing camp ""...........in faivor of, the other angle of this issue, which you presented...I like to comment, and tell you , I hear you !!
........................
Indeed, the psycology of success is a whole world of its own....the system, and the logic of the game, and playing chess, and avangard coaching aside., What you put forward, is indeed profound and thought provoking !!
............................
One, can say many examples about the validity of your point......
For example....lance Armstrong , and tour de France !!
...............It is the human tryaumph...........

[Ali Chicago]

Ali e aziz..................
I want to give my two cents, to your profound thread !!!, I do it here, as we also exchanged some ideas, in the other thread....
I put aside my own idea, regarding ""long traing camp ""...........in faivor of, the other angle of this issue, which you presented...I like to comment, and tell you , I hear you !!
........................
Indeed, the psycology of success is a whole world of its own....the system, and the logic of the game, and playing chess, and avangard coaching aside., What you put forward, is indeed profound and thought provoking !!
............................
One, can say many examples about the validity of your point......
For example....lance Armstrong , and tour de France !!
...............It is the human tryaumph...........

I hope you meant that "profound thread" in a good way!!! . Anyhow, I am really hoping this to become more than just a few feel good thoughts. Maybe I am looking for impossible. I am really hoping to come up with a more practical solutions. Practical in the sense that, we have these marqi players who play at highest level in Europe and when we bring them to out TM we can't use them properly. Part of this is coaching and all, but part of this is still working on that motivation. This isnot a simple matter of giving them a seremon about partiotisem, nationalisem, religious porpaganda blah blah.

In the globalization era we are not the only team who faces this challenge. Ghana, Cameroon, Ivory Coast and lot of other african countries have the same issue. IFF needs to really do a long term research on this. The full time psychologist for TM is the baby step. He needs to work with our boys long term. Gain their turst, know them their strength, fears, insecurities in and out and find how to get them going. The same psycologist needs to be man enough to relaize if the fire isn't in the belly tell the coach as well.

So much to do and so much little time. Wish I was in Iran and could talk someone in Charge and give them ideas at least. (boy I need to get off my high horse I guess).

[gol_kuchik]

Dear Ali,

I am completely puzzled by your post. In the other thread, I mentioned Adernaline rush
to put a good face to it.

First of all, I do not envy Iraq one bit.
1-If it takes that kind of tragedy to be successful (or become Gherarty according to
you) Thanks! I rather Iran team ALWAYS finish last in every tournament to the
end of time and NOT face what Iraqis are facing today.

But if you are just referring to motivation, my entire point was that motivation alone will
not create Good football. The Iraqi team may be lucky/motivated or whatever you want
to call it, but they have NOT producing quality football.

If we want to improve fundamentally, we have to at least look at what other successful
teams around the globe are doing. In my view, 90% of it goes back to proper management.

I think TM and football in Iran is at a crossroad. We have reached a level beyound
which we need to make important changes or we will just remain at this level while
others with better vision catch up and pass us.
That's why may be we could beat Australia and U.S due to Gherat, but in the long run
we have seen it, it is the planning/management that will get us to the next level.

[zzgloo]

Yesterday....on USAtoday,newspaper...there was an article,about,NFL,and the new-orleans saints training camp.............there was a picture, where the coaching staff of new orleans,had invited all the players for a " Mock" funeral, in which, they had made a replica,of thier NFC south trophy,and NFC championship,of last year, and in the photo, the coaching staff in front of all thier players were barring the trophy,inside a grave, with a toombstone !!
.............what the coaching staff,was trying to convay to the players was psycolocial start,for thier up-commeing seaon.....they said, last year is dead, and you do not start on the glory of the past,but, start all over again !!
...............................
The point I am trying to make, is that, a good management and good coaching staff,can also set tone for a right pscological tone ,and can direct the players mind in a right way............the coaching is not just Xes,and Oes, it contains everything that has to do with performance.

[Ali Chicago]

Dear Ali,
I am completely puzzled by your post. In the other thread, I mentioned Adernaline rush
to put a good face to it.
.

Thanks for your response and sorry for the confusion. If it is an adernaline rush, how does it goes for almost 4 years from 2003 to 2007? This is as Bahram said the whole science and art of motivating players. Please read the last part when I am talking about a full time psychologist for TM who in long term can establish long term trust with players and identify their emotional strength and weaknesses.

First of all, I do not envy Iraq one bit.
1-If it takes that kind of tragedy to be successful (or become Gherarty according to
you) Thanks! I rather Iran team ALWAYS finish last in every tournament to the
end of time and NOT face what Iraqis are facing today.

I never implied that. I think there is sentence in my post that I clearly say, this isn't my intent. See below;

I am by no means advocationg we should ruin the country like Iraq so our football do well. But something to think about.

On your next point:

But if you are just referring to motivation, my entire point was that motivation alone will
not create Good football. The Iraqi team may be lucky/motivated or whatever you want
to call it, but they have NOT producing quality football.

That is the whole point of my post. But I think either I didn't explain it well or you didn't take the time to read my whole post. Please read my post again. I specifically say, my point about this thread is how to find a way to motivate our legioners.

If we want to improve fundamentally, we have to at least look at what other successful
teams around the globe are doing. In my view, 90% of it goes back to proper management.
I think TM and football in Iran is at a crossroad. We have reached a level beyound
which we need to make important changes or we will just remain at this level while
others with better vision catch up and pass us.
That's why may be we could beat Australia and U.S due to Gherat, but in the long run
we have seen it, it is the planning/management that will get us to the next level.

This is what I said:

This thread by no means is an effort to undermine the role of the system, infrastrucutre, good coaching, or trying indirectly to push the Iran's elimination in quarter final under the rug. I am just fascinated and keep thinking about this for a week now.

No one can argue with this (at least not me). You are totally right. But again, this thread doesn't focuses on that part of the issue aziz. Success has many facotors, management, organization, infrastrucure, ..... on and on. This thread focuses on a small part of that big puzzle. I again mentioned that this motivation thing by no mean will be a replacement for the management organization and all that.

[The-Red]

part of it has to do with the fact that Iraq wasn't looked at as a favorit coming in and there wasn't any real pressure on them. Of course this is a little part of it.
Iraq just like Egypt and us, it is going through a good genergation of individual footballers.

[Kavian]

Interesting Post, Ali agha!

... And equally as interesting are the replies to your post and how everyone is articulating their thoughts on the subject you put on the table.

My interpretation of your post is captured in the next two questions;

a) Is there an "Iraqi phenomenon", and
b) What are the factors impacting success in football? - which is a broader topic.

I can understand why one can be puzzled by the fact that a team coming out of a war torn country like Iraq can be successful in a tournament as competitive as Asian Cup. This is throwing every rule in the book out for questioning. I can think of number of things that can help explain this so called "Iraqi phenomenon". First, Iraq has always been good in football and seeing their success in various events should not come as a surprise. They are a good team. If peace is brought back to their country and they can establish a good organization behind their football, they will be one team to be feared by all Asian teams. The "Iraqi phenomenon" is not far frem reality! Also, the pshycology played an important role in this tournament for Iraq. Their players were determined both on the personal level to capture the eye of the scouts and on the bigger scheme of things, they wanted to use the success to bring some joy to their country. And lastly, let's not eliminate the factor of "Luck". Iraq played one good game against Australia and that alone put them in a position to get to where they are today. Vietnam was the easiest of all teams in the quarterfinal and the tired Korians coming out of a real battle with Iran, perhpas were the losers by default.

Now as for the second question, I have to say everyone knows that good organization, proper facilities, coaching, grass root development,etc. etc. are the factors in ensuring success in any sports - football included. But I guess it is the talent that makes the final difference. I think we need to take a good look at how we are measuring our football talents in Iran. I have a feeling our yardstick is little different from the mainstream and may be influced by our pride. The fact that we all have to accept is that we are not as talent-rich in football as we claim we are! Volleyball may be a different story!

In summary, I am happy for Iraq football team to be in the final and wish them best of luck. They need some happiness in their home land.

[Ali Chicago]

Yesterday....on USAtoday,newspaper...there was an article,about,NFL,and the new-orleans saints training camp.............there was a picture, where the coaching staff of new orleans,had invited all the players for a " Mock" funeral, in which, they had made a replica,of thier NFC south trophy,and NFC championship,of last year, and in the photo, the coaching staff in front of all thier players were barring the trophy,inside a grave, with a toombstone !!
.............what the coaching staff,was trying to convay to the players was psycolocial start,for thier up-commeing seaon.....they said, last year is dead, and you do not start on the glory of the past,but, start all over again !!
...............................
The point I am trying to make, is that, a good management and good coaching staff,can also set tone for a right pscological tone ,and can direct the players mind in a right way............the coaching is not just Xes,and Oes, it contains everything that has to do with performance.

Great example Bahram jaan. That is along the line of what I was thinking about. We definitly have a problem which is how to motivate this generation. The old school of do for Iran and for the color of jersey and stuff is gone. This is the world of money, greed whatever you want to call it, we need a new set of paradigms to reach to these players.

I guess I am expecting too much from the current system in Iran, where GN is the head coach. I hope some day we see some sort of a plan like this in place.

[Ali Chicago]

Interesting Post, Ali agha!
... And equally as interesting are the replies to your post and how everyone is articulating their thoughts on the subject you put on the table.
My interpretation of your post is captured in the next two questions;
a) Is there an "Iraqi phenomenon", and
b) What are the factors impacting success in football? - which is a broader topic.
I can understand why one can be puzzled by the fact that a team coming out of a war torn country like Iraq can be successful in a tournament as competitive as Asian Cup. This is throwing every rule in the book out for questioning. I can think of number of things that can help explain this so called "Iraqi phenomenon". First, Iraq has always been good in football and seeing good footballers coming out of Iraq should not come as a surprise. If peace is brought back to their country and they can establish a good organization behind their football, they will be one team to be feared by all Asian teams. Also, the the pshycology played an important role in this tournament for Iraq. Their players were determined both on the personal level to capture the eye of the scouts and on the bigger
scheme of things, they wanted to use the success to bring some joy to their country. And lastly, let's not eliminate the factor of "Luck". Iraq played one good game against Australia and that alone put them in a position to get to where they are today. Vietnam was the easiest of all teams in the quarterfinal and the tired Korians coming out of a real battle with Iran, perhpas was an easier target than any of the other semifinalists.
Now as for the second questions, I have to say everyone knows that good organization, proper facilities, coaching, grass root development,etc. etc. are the factors in ensuring success in any sports - football included. But I guess it is the talent that makes the final difference. I think we need to take a good look at how we are measuring our football talents in Iran. I have a feeling our yardstick is little different from the mainstream and may be influced by our pride. We are not as talent rich as we claim we are! Volleyball may be a different story!

Dada,
Thanks for your post. The whole point of this thread is to find a more complex ways to motivate our players. What I call Iraqi phonomenon is going on from 2003 with their successive success in several tournaments so it is not just dumb luck.

Now I never dare to suggest we have to ruin the country to motivate our players. I guess I didn't do a good job to explain my idea. The whole idea was how to find ways to motivate legioners who come back to Iran and see less experienced coach, lower level tactical sophestication, shitty facilitiees, pitty things like people around them try to get a ball or jersey where these things are like nothing in Germany or England. How to keep a player to see all of this and still keep things in perspective and dont' get a nose up in the air attitude.

This is a very complex issue. Even more importantly, somehow find a way to gauge the motivation level of the player by a trained pyschologist in an indirect way and pass that to the coach. So for example GN or Daie or whoever is teh coach when setting the team up, would consider that motivation and desire factore. For example he can say, I know Ando and Sadeghi are pretty much at the same level, but based on what the psychologist told me, it seems Saedeghi has a higher motivation. Even at this stage coach can choose to put Ando in the field, after all it is his call, but the point is we need to work on player motivation and effort the so called
"ghayrat" factor and consider that factor when we set the team up.

[Kavian]

Dada,
Thanks for your post. ...................that factor when we set the team up.

What does "Dada" mean?

[Ali Chicago]

What does "Dada" mean?

I lived in Isfahan for 2 years and Isfanhanies were using it as short form for Dadash. That is a long time ago though.So if the term is antiquated it is my fault. At least that is how I remember it.

[gol_kuchik]

ok Ali Jan, here's my second take

It is an anomoly I am hesitant to say it but will say. Iraqs advancement in this
cup is almost a suspect. As you said, you have not watch much of Iraq games. But
I have. Even in WAFF games, we just did not follow through with proper subs or
the 2-0 demolishing could have been much worse.

The current team is motivated to be sure, although after the last game and the tragedy
that happened to celebrate, it should be in the back of some players:
--If we win some will die celebrating!?

But I get a sense, Iraq-Saudi match up is no coincdent. Saudi's were the only team
dumb enough to take on the final challenge. Think about it.

[Ali Chicago]

ok Ali Jan, here's my second take

But I get a sense, Iraq-Saudi match up is no coincdent. Saudi's were the only team
dumb enough to take on the final challenge. Think about it.

Merci aziz, I still request you don't focus much on Iraq part. I just used Iraq as an example to make a point about the importance of motivation and effort.

Also could you explain about this last sentence I quoted here. I am not sure what are you implying? What do u mean by dumb enough to take on the final challenge?

[gol_kuchik]

Merci aziz, I still request you don't focus much on Iraq part. I just used Iraq as an example to make a point about the importance of motivation and effort.
Also could you explain about this last sentence I quoted here. I am not sure what are you implying? What do u mean by dumb enough to take on the final challenge?

As for motivation, you look at it as an element in and of itself. I used specifically
the term adernaline rush to say, a team like Greece can win (even while inferrior in
every aspect) the European cup. Players simply playing out of their body! While this is good, it can not be expected to produce consistent results. (Again Turkey and
Greece are good examples).

There is an entire field on how to motivate people (from simple employees to company
executives). But thats really like saying: If I could find the secret of how to always
get 100% from people around me. The answer, we are human and thats impossible.

You then went on to try to find a pattern in Iraqi players achievement, and therefore
dig something in their psyche /motivation/Ghaeyrat.

To me their first appearance was kind of like our 1998. Our entire country was up
and envigorated after years of war, and due to promise of a new more tolerant
society. In some ways our players emotion reflected the hopes and emotion of
society at large. Same with Iraq. Perhaps there was the illusion of a better
future and Olympic team was the symbol of that.

The "Gulf Tournament" was different. Iraq has been historically a good team. So
it is not like suddenly they were playing out of this world. Even in Saddam time
Saudis were mostly sheet scared of Iraqis, so I would not read too much into that.

This Asian Cup is different. In my view, the team we beat so handily and what I
saw against Thailand and even Australia (even though they beat them) was not
capable of coming this far.

It seems to me no one wanted to even face Iraq and eliminate them. You can
call it whatever you want, but that's how it seems to me. Now let me explain my
statement about Saudis:

It is already circulating in the media, (a known fact that can no longer be supressed),
that the bulk of the help to the "insurgents" is coming from Saudis. Also most of the
killers are from there. Couple of days ago, there was talk about 25 million aid to
Saddam family by Saudi family.

Now the whole confrontation can be captured in Football, at this huge world stage.
The spin doctors can do wonders.

If Saudis win, they will be viewed as beating on this poor Iraqis which they are
also destroying (help to Saddam family and insurgents).

If they lose, they have come all this way to lose to Iraq (which coincidentally
represents the side they are trying to topple if you know what I mean) I drifted from
football but you asked.