My honest view

[Martin-Reza]

I am sick of not winning. I am also sick of the loser-attitude to even thank players and coaches for trying. Trying is not enough anylonger.

I accept that trying is enough against Portugal, but I demand that a bunch of European top league players paired up with the finest players from a football-mad country are easily able to
- get revenge and down a weak Chinese side that really played unfairly against us last time
- thrash a horribly weak Malaysia side
- beat a extremely weak Korean side in normal time
- and then beat an Iraqi team that was easily defeated by Iran B recently

But instead
- China almost screws us and we're lucky to get a draw
- Malaysia almost holds us to a 1-1 draw and we finally win 2-0
- Korea is equal to us all the match, gets a deserved draw and
- of course beats us in pk and we don't even get to play Iraq

I really don't understand why I should thank any highly paid player for this embarassment. The Korean side being equal to our stars was only second best against Iraq, a team obviously weaker than us.

I really don't thank Karimi for making trouble and walking the pitch with no emotion for almost three years now, I don't thank Hashemian for needing an hour before deciding what to do with the ball, I don't thank Teymourian for not being able to control passes and surely I don't thank the coach for his idiotic decisions.

I don't even thank Nekounam and Hosseini, because all they did was playing as they were expected to.

No more excuses, thank yous and tributes for losers. Get results and we're thankful or fail and **** off.

[mohandes]

Ditto..Ditto. ditto. Thanks for nothing... We have embarrassed ourselves once more. Why is it that we can make the silliest mistakes (khatibi's perennial off sides)10 times in a row without having the coach, other players and our captain not to chime in on the pitch. somebody had to grab khatibi by his shoulders and gave him a good shaking asking " quit it now.. what are you thinking?"... relax and show a little patience dude!!". Why are we playing our players where they do not belong? Why are we not using some of our best weapons (i.e. Kazemian, Kaabi, Mobali) specially when they appear to be in a better form at this time ? Why are we playing friendlies with teams that provide us no real international level competitive game experience? Why are we boasting winning 8 to zip to low level teams? Why are we constantly praising our achievements and make excuses for everything, from weather, camp condition, fairness and lack there of of the field official and a host of other silly childish excuses. You never hear from major international teams complaining on such subject but we're sooooo good at it. Why are we showing such a favoritism in our player selection? Mr. Enayati simply not a striker in international level although Agha Vahid started to loose form seriously but at least Vahid gives %100 every time and then some. I have to give it to Enayati on excellent PK though.

But the main question is . What have we learned from all of this. Probably not much. We go on our business, few months before next tournament we get together,few training pics, few friendly games with likes of Maldives or Afghanistan and we call our self ready to go........ Far from it indeed. We need total seperation of sports and government. The footbal entity must be totally independent and run like a business.

As late Don Coleone says... " Nothing personal... it's all bissiness (business)"

[Doctor DOOM]

I am sick of not winning. I am also sick of the loser-attitude to even thank players and coaches for trying. Trying is not enough any longer.

exactly my sentiments, martin jan.
there's a point where one says enough trying and start CONVERTING.

altho' to me, the biggest culprits and faulty party are the officials and IFF bastards in Iran , which each and every failure can be traced to these scumbags, and their mismanagement and lacks.
afterall it was their screw up in selecting the wrong coach who , in turn, wrongly over-relied on a bunch of pampered players who never felt threatened !
a Dehdaari style of management by a gutsy coach would have gotten us far greater results than this mess !
A Dehdaari would have benched karimi's arse until he either learns or walks off the camp ( either case TM wins ).
A dehdari would have told VH and ando and .. to either play like they used to : at the BEST LEVELS, or get benched for guys like rajabzadeh or kaz or .... .

and a lot of other mistakes and failings which , again, can be traced to the officials.

[zzgloo]

Martin jaan,.......you need to take it easy !!

Do you know, that, Iranian football, is the most efficient,the most well managed, and the most pampered organization in IRAN ?

Do you know, How other organizations are doing in Iran ?

Do you know, our fellow country men in Iran, are far more dissappionted and heart broken than you are ?, By millions ?

Do you know, it is not thier first time ?

,I do not mean, these are all the fault of our system.....I am just saying, considering the circustances, and over exadurations of our abbilities, we did fine !!

we did almost as good, as australia, and south Korea..........

To be Asian champion, we need far more than just good team......The System must be correct, the intangebles must be there.....we had niether.

We need to stay seek and tired, like millions in Iran, to feel close to fellow Iranians in Iran !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hajagha]

No, it's your angry view. mmmm, I see your Iranian genes dominating your Austrian ones these days. Try to not drink tea with cube-sugar. Definitely avoid ghorme-sabzi and abgosht. If you wanna have kabab, check the Turkish restaurant instead of Iranian, however it’s better to not have it at all. Instead try to eat sausage as much as possible, Hamburger also helps.

Relax, have a couple of beers, call your girl friend for an afternoon beach walk. You will be back to the normal domination of Austrian genes in a week or two.

Imagine S. Korea hasn't won this cup for almost 50 years. We have still 20 years to go to beat their records.

[Ali Chicago]

I share and tottally appreicate your frustration. I was depressed for 48 hours after the Korea PK loss. Still having a hard time to pull myself out. But having said that, we still need to thank our players.

Remember how all germans stood up and clapped for German players after the loss to Italy in WC 2006? Players and coaches do their best, at times it isn't enough but I thank them for giving whatever they got.

Only one team wins in a tournament. That is the nature of soccer. A numerous number of things has to line up right till u get the championship.

There is a good core in your post and that is lackluster performance of our legioners. That I think you have a point.
But even with that, they still took time away from their families for one month, went under grueling physical conditioning work by Koomasi, carried the huge emotional pressure on playin in TM.

Look at Hashemian, look at Enayati, Hooseini or Nekoonam or even Ando. They are busting their humps and working hard. Coaching mistakes by GN added to the cause of failures as well.

In summary I agree with your point about below average of European based players but I still thank them. In football the best team doesn't always win. In Korea's game we weren't the better team not by much but still better than them, but couldn't get the job done.

If one thing in AFC tournament was the main cause of failure was teh failure of our forward line. This was in part due to not getting fed well by mid, but still when it had to count our forward line didn't show up. Imagine if Hashemian and Enayati or Khatibi each had scored one goal, today we were playing in final.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

Imagine S. Korea hasn't won this cup for almost 50 years. We have still 20 years to go to beat their records.

LOOOL Excellent post

[khabalood]

I agree with you Martin-Reza, and I feel the same way.

[The-Red]

I can't agree MR jan, I go with what ZZgloo said.

I can't blame the players...these days there is so much goes into a football match that is beyond what happens on the field.

[gol_kuchik]

There is no shortcut to success. May be I should rephrase that and say,
there is no shortuct to consistent success. It takes hard work, planning,
and proper management. Sure Iraq may win a tournament purely due to
adrenaline rush. Sure we may beat a team better than us by luck, but should
we be disappointed if we rely on luck rather than following through with
a program? This is not a new concept. Did you see the organization with
which Japanese were playing football?

The concept of management and manager are all foreign to our culture.
In the past, we had "Ousta" or Master. Later we had "Raees"
which was the modern "Ousta" but now in the position of Riast (One who is
at the top of heirarchy). That was a bad mistranslation for an important
concept: To plan and organize and follow through with an activity among
agroup of people, To manage it is fundamentally different than to sit at
the top!

Unfortunately, even today, this simple concept is not understood or
respected in Iran. That is why, a person with an engineering degree is
driving a cab, a Medical doctor may be head of our foreign affair and
a clergy may be the head of a university.

Of course it is onething for oridinary people to blame bad luck for
mishaps. But the whole purpose of having experts in a field is to have
plans to avoid mishaps and try to learn and avoid it in the future. That
is called managing.

No Martin Jan,

The problem with our current state of affair and the frustration we have, is
not just limited to failing or substandard results in two important tests. The
real problem is, if you ask for instance Mr.GN *WHY* he failed he can not
explain the *REASON* he failed. Only bad luck. If you asked Branko,
he would not even admit he failed in anything.

I wont say the same group of players under a different coach (MANAGMENT)
would have won this cup. What I would say is, under a good management,
less than optimal players either in shape or attitude will get booted out.

No one would have a secure spot in the team and the team is built based
on the best we had to offer now in practice, not 2 years ago and not 5
years ago, and certainly not on friendship. Just look at Brazil or even
the Korean team that beat us.

This in my opinion is where both of these coaches have gone wrong. Instead
of managing, they let players manage. Players will manage if you let them,
but according to which ones rule? Karimi or Javad or Daei? And therefore
the confustion and chaos. Why have a coach then?

So you cant blame it on the players. The person at the helm is the coach.
If he does his job well, we wont be pointing finger at players and not know
*HOW* we can get out of this mess, the situation we face now.

But why dont we have a good manager? I believe under current situation,
a good manager will not come to Iran, or if one exists in Iran will not get
the chance. Simply because he will not be the
person in charge. NO self respecting coach will allow someone else to
make staffing-player selection decision. Or cope with substandard planning
facilities. (the good that Branko did came early on when he was left alone)

Unfortunately, the reality is, the government interfers in this affair and
incompetent people are installed. Note that as much as I dislike
Bush or Blair, no one says they interfere in their countries Basketball or
Football affair. In fact I wish they intervened more in their sports programs
and less in the rest of the world (I digress).

But can we say the same thing about Ahmadinejad and rest of government
in Iran?

My only hope is we fully abide by FIFA demands, install an independent IFF
(most fan dont realize that real decisions have been made by head of
sports Admin, Ali-Abadi) and IFF has been effectively non-existent for
at least 6 months.

I am afriad you will remain sick of losing until we change our management
and view of it. I really think we got lucky to even come to this stage.
Just imagine had we not scored one more against China, we would have
been eliminated!

[Ali Chicago]

There is no shortcut to success. May be I should rephrase that and say,
there is no shortuct to consistent success. It takes hard work, planning,
and proper management. Sure Iraq may win a tournament purely due to
adrenaline rush. !

I am agreeing almost totally with your post and don't mean to divert the discussion of this thread. However, I am really puzzled with this Iraqi phenomenon. I don't follow Iraqi football but from what I recall, they had three major success past 4 years.

Success in Olympic 2004
Sucess in the socalled "Gulf cup" probably our Persian gulf based members can correct me here, but they lost to KSA on a dive by Yasar Alghhatani and PK.
in WAFF they lost to us in final but they could have won that too. They kept our team at bay for the whole second half.
And now AFC final.

I think there is something more than Adernaliine RUSH. This is probably a very deep discussion about human motivation and how hardship brings the best out in human beings.

I am by no means advocationg we should ruin the country like Iraq so our football do well. But something to think about.Don't you think?

The missing link here is about player's motivation and effort in the game. In the trenches of fighting for every 50-50 ball, it is n't just the 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or X vs Y. It is just pure desire and effort. The same two factors, I suspect made Ando the hero in WC2006, whereas a lot of our Marqui players didn't perform.

In summary, with Iraqi's football success stories I listed above, what can be concluded? Civial war, invasion, internal conflict even among federation and players (Emad Reza was just allowed back to their TM and Ahmad Kazem (who plays in Paas) is still banned from Iraq's team melli by their federation, sicne they claimed federation members were bribed by Saudies.). How come they are doing so well. Are the two factores of player's motivation and effort can be so detremental? Or it is because of all those Shieat Emams who are buried there!!! (no disrespect to religious beleif of anyone, just a little joke).

[Doctor DOOM]

ali jan, I think their success is based on what we, Iranians , always boast and talk about : gheyrat !
gheyrat or their grit and determination at the face of many obstacles and lacks .
In fact , as in case of many underdogs, these obstacles and lacks ARE THE REASON for them going all out, pushing themselves to the limit to OUT-perform or OUT-do what is expected from them.
Iraq has a lot of such reasons to get "gheyrati" about and give them incentive to out-perform.
civil war, occupation, no funds, .... you name it, they got it.

unfortunately, the new crop of players in IRAN, lack that hard edge, becoz they are pampered, praised almost unconditionally, fed well, earn even better, some even play in europe & clubs where ppl like Iraqis can dream of , .... .

yes, we have a word like "gheyrat" in our vocabulary.
but that is an ancient notion and hardly anyone actually exercises that.

of recent time, I can name only a few like Daei who DID show this gheyrat ( whether we like him or not, we gotta admit he did have and show it ).
And having so few is just pitiful !

[zzgloo]

I am agreeing almost totally with your post and don't mean to divert the discussion of this thread. However, I am really puzzled with this Iraqi phenomenon. I don't follow Iraqi football but from what I recall, they had three major success past 4 years.
Success in Olympic 2004
Sucess in the socalled "Gulf cup" probably our Persian gulf based members can correct me here, but they lost to KSA on a dive by Yasar Alghhatani and PK.
in WAFF they lost to us in final but they could have won that too. They kept our team at bay for the whole second half.
And now AFC final.
I think there is something more than Adernaliine RUSH. This is probably a very deep discussion about human motivation and how hardship brings the best out in human beings.
I am by no means advocationg we should ruin the country like Iraq so our football do well. But something to think about.Don't you think?
The missing link here is about player's motivation and effort in the game. In the trenches of fighting for every 50-50 ball, it is n't just the 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or X vs Y. It is just pure desire and effort. The same two factors, I suspect made Ando the hero in WC2006, whereas a lot of our Marqui players didn't perform.
In summary, with Iraqi's football success stories I listed above, what can be concluded? Civial war, invasion, internal conflict even among federation and players (Emad Reza was just allowed back to their TM and Ahmad Kazem (who plays in Paas) is still banned from Iraq's team melli by their federation, sicne they claimed federation members were bribed by Saudies.). How come they are doing so well. Are the two factores of player's motivation and effort can be so detremental? Or it is because of all those Shieat Emams who are buried there!!! (no disrespect to religious beleif of anyone, just a little joke).

Ali jaan, Iraq's success is very easy to figure out.......
These players have no other work....
They have been in Jordan as thier home.....
They have been in hotels and camp., practicaly for 4 years in a row.
It is as though, they had a very long training camp....which is magnificent.
Any, team , with unlimited support ( It is a propaganda for Iraqi regim ),and long,long training camp, and have nothingels to look for, would do fine !!

[Ali Chicago]

ali jan, I think their success is based on what we, Iranians , always boast and talk about : gheyrat !
gheyrat or their grit and determination at the face of many obstacles and lacks .
In fact , as in case of many underdogs, these obstacles and lacks ARE THE REASON for them going all out, pushing themselves to the limit to OUT-perform or OUT-do what is expected from them.
Iraq has a lot of such reasons to get "gheyrati" about and give them incentive to out-perform.
civil war, occupation, no funds, .... you name it, they got it.

unfortunately, the new crop of players in IRAN, lack that hard edge, becoz they are pampered, praised almost unconditionally, fed well, earn even better, some even play in europe & clubs where ppl like Iraqis can dream of , .... .

yes, we have a word like "gheyrat" in our vocabulary.
but that is an ancient notion and hardly anyone actually exercises that.

of recent time, I can name only a few like Daei who DID show this gheyrat ( whether we like him or not, we gotta admit he did have and show it ).
And having so few is just pitiful !

I agree, my point was showing how much the two factores that in football coaching is called player's motivation (desire) and Effort which you transliterated it to "Ghayrat" is important.
To be honest agha payman, I am still puzzled at the whole Iraqi football phonomenon since 2003. All of these acheivement by only the so called "ghayrat"???!!!!

I guess determination "desire" and putting 110% in the field are very key factores.

As for Daie in my numerous posts I mentioned I alwyas respected him for all the traveling he did for the WC2002 and 1998 qualification. Daie issue isn't lack of ghayrat at all, he is one the best if not the best in that catagory. His demise was due to his best attribute "persistance".

For the current generation of the players, I really like Hashemian and Enayati in that department. Ando needs to be added as well. That putting 110% in game in game out. I know many of you making fun of me for mentioning Enayati there, but watch the games, in the games he was in he ran more than 10 km (despite not havin ga good tournament). I invited my directore of coaching to watch with me a couple of iran's game and that was teh first thing he noticed (how hard these two are working), mind you he has no exposure to Iranian football before this.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jaan, Iraq's success is very easy to figure out.......
These players have no other work....
They have been in Jordan as thier home.....
They have been in hotels and camp., practicaly for 4 years in a row.
It is as though, they had a very long training camp....which is magnificent.
Any, team , with unlimited support ( It is a propaganda for Iraqi regim ),and long,long training camp, and have nothingels to look for, would do fine !!

Bahram Jaan,

I beg to differ. What do you mean they have no other work? Many of these guys are pro players play in gulf or even in KSA.
They had a camp in Jordan but so did our team for WAFF. Rest of the time they are in Jordan to make sure they don't get blasted or taken hostage for ransom.
I don't think your claim of they being in the camp for 4 years is true. Again most of these guys are pro players. Hawar Molla Mohammad played for the Alaini I think, couple of others play in KSA. Emmad Reza plays in Sepahan, Ahmad Kazem is in Paas. They have the same issues we have. Granted they don't have many european based players, but no way they are in the camp for 4 years. Even for a moment accept that they are in camp for 4 years. Beleive me if you keep a player in the camp for 4 years they will trun to shit. No human can perform under that long term camp like life style.

Unlimited support? You must be kidding me. Their Federation is so khar to khar, that Ahmad Kazem and Emmad Reza who play in Sepahan and another guy, accused their federation of getting bribe money from KSA so the team looses in Gulf cup. Federation banned three players, they recently forgave Emmad Reza (from Sepahan), but Kazem still is banned. I mean it shows how bad the situation in the federation is.

Despite what American media claims with the money spent in Iraq, life in Iraq is way worst than the life under Saddam. No electericity still after 4 years of Saddam Removal. What UNLIMITED SUPPORT? Don't forget internal strife between Shiat, sunnies, Kurd, Turkman. Imagine how much of Hasheeyeh like that can create for the team. Ask southIraq and other Iraqi guy in the main forum, how one of the goalies they brought to one of the tournaments was a Kurd and he wasn't that good, and there was the whole rumor that he was imposed to TM by higher authorities (read Talebani) for the so called national unity.

Iraq's phenomenon is a miracle. I think it shows the importace of the player's motivation and effort. I think What DD mentioned in his post has a lot to do with it. Look at our players and look at them. The shittiest player in IPL get 30-40 million. Read the note about GN in Iran Varzeshi, he mentioned it was strange that our players get 400 US dollar prize for a win or 1500$ for a win while they are used to get 300K salary.
I am not saying it is player's fault btw and not trying to find an esscape goat for our elimination in AFC cup, or push under the rug the short coming of GN and our coachign staff. I am merely trying to untangle this whole complex phonomenon called winnin in a tournament.