Iran - Bahrain (11 Oct 2011)

[maij]

but majid jan, I did not deny khalatbari's few selfish moves and in fact did mention them. however I objected to some ppl (I think in the general forum also) who said he doesnt belong to the TM.
by the same token, even if nekounam has an off day I dont recommend throwing him out of the roster.

in other words, I acknowledge khalatbari's mischief and have always agreed he needs to lay off the high sugar drinks that gets his blood pumping too much adrenaline and he gets hyper and does crazy things once in a while. But at the same time, he is one of those key players who can single handedly turn a game too. just ask asian giants al-hilal or the south korean ACL former champs they defeated last season.

a good coach recognizes his uses and sits him down and drills some discipline into him. not throw him out of the roster.

as far as "yield" is concerned, i think he did help the team a bit. the second goal was off his cross, for example. and there were plenty of occasions he single handedly created dangerous chances in the box and in front of the goal .. which resulted in the chaotic and confused defending in bahrain camp.

gun to the head, I'd say he was a 6-6.5 , while neku (great in defensive duties. mehhhh in offensive ones) was at best a 7 ... while jabbari, ando, ghazi, mahini ... were all in comfortable 8's and 9's

I did not debate whether Khalatbari should be in or out of the team , but maybe you were getting that idea from some of the members in the other forum.

I am very much an advocate of the English and European school of thought when it comes to judgment on players. In a simple form it means that it is no good being Cristiano Ronaldo , Rooney or Messi , if you cannot deliver the goods , week in & week out. Of course footballers are human and one can't expect them to be operating like robots, but at some stage they have to deliver. They don't care much and do not have time to talk about the goal that the player has scored ten years ago from 40 yards , they want to see him perform and excel here and now !!!

I believe there is some stereo-typing when it comes to judging players and quite a bit of emotions. Karimi has dribbled a few Arab defenders , then he is set for life, Nekounam was the star of the match vs Korea on 2007, then he is untouchable ... and so on.

I can only speak for myself , of course, and say that I have seen these player hundreds of times which is enough to create an impression and at least know their ability. So, now that I know this , all I want to see is for those players to translate that capability on the match day NOT and yield result rather than rave about his past achievements and indemnify him for a series of abysmal performances.

I think I have beaten the subject to death

[maij]

^ Should I say I disagree with what you said about Nekonam and his game? No, I said it before, but I say it again anyway.

Yesterday, Nekonam was not supposed to have golden passes. He was not attacking mid. His role was to initiate which side we should start penetrating, left, right or deep without LOSING the ball in that area to force the the whole team to march back and defend? This means cautious passes which are far from "golden passes". He was the composure and he did it perfectly in my book. Besides, he was the inside coach. Look how much he was talking to his players one line in front of him at the beginning of the game.

Yes, he didn't score. That's why he seemed to be ineffective, but you gotta give DOUBLE credit to the leader of the team who lead his team for a historic win. That's all.

Proving my points watch the first minute of highlights of the following game (Iraq-China) and see for yourself that all highlights were from turnovers where DMs are playing.

Cheers,

Reza jan...based on you answer of this question , I can easily handed it you and accept your argument unconditionally.

The question " How did you know for sure that Nekounam's role in Bahrain game and after the dismissal of a defender is what you suggested in your post ?".

• is it by pure speculation ?
• is it because you firmly believe that his tasks , should be the ones you mentioned.
• is it because Nekounam has done that in some games before ?
• is your source close to the team Melli camp and or the coach?
• is it any other reason that I cannot think of right now?

Mokhlis.

[RaginG Inferno]

Not sure if we can say the left back problem is "solved" yet.
simply becoz we havent faced a team that puts our defense under decent pressure yet. from the first game CQ took over till today our defense has had a comfortable and relaxed ride. none of madagascar, qatar, maldives, bahrain, indonesia had kept any sustained pressure on our defense for us to know how the defense and specifically the LB would act under decent pressure.
one reason why our defenders feel more comfortable coming forward and joining in attacks.


but I reckon we dont have to wait too long. the next round facing (and there's no escaping) big guns like south korea, japan, aussies, ... will finally give us the answer if we have indeed found the solution to the LB or not.





getting the measure of CQ:
expressly thinking about assessing CQ's impact on the team, I really wish that red card hadnt been given, so today we could assess CQ with more assuredness. back there ... in the back of my mind I'm still not convinced by this game and for good reasons too. apart from the red card, lets not forget this was bahrain. and we can only imagine the amount of determination and motivation among our lads to deal them a blow. The kind of extra determination and drive that may not necessarily be present facing a team like south korea or japan or uzbekistan. not to mention would CQ be driving everyone forward till the dying seconds of the game had it been an 11 man opponent or a slightly more powerful one like uzbekistan or south korea? I'm not so sure, although I'd LOVE to see this to be true. that would give me extreme pleasure.


so while I admit the team has certainly and palpably improved and the trend is a positive one. I'm not going to base all my assumptions on this one game.

That's a very reasonable comment. It's too early to make definitive conclusions, but we can be happy with the upward trend that we have witnessed.

[RaginG Inferno]

^ Should I say I disagree with what you said about Nekonam and his game? No, I said it before, but I say it again anyway.

Yesterday, Nekonam was not supposed to have golden passes. He was not attacking mid. His role was to initiate which side we should start penetrating, left, right or deep without LOSING the ball in that area to force the the whole team to march back and defend? This means cautious passes which are far from "golden passes". He was the composure and he did it perfectly in my book. Besides, he was the inside coach. Look how much he was talking to his players one line in front of him at the beginning of the game.

Yes, he didn't score. That's why he seemed to be ineffective, but you gotta give DOUBLE credit to the leader of the team who lead his team for a historic win. That's all.

Proving my points watch the first minute of highlights of the following game (Iraq-China) and see for yourself that all highlights were from turnovers where DMs are playing.

Cheers,

Exactly. It's not Nekounam's role to create opportunities, it's merely to distribute the ball safely to those who should. If he contributes well to attack, that's a bonus. I thought his defensive contribution was excellent. He really has a good ability to position himself correctly - when to track a player, when to engage, when to observe, when to go forward, when to stay back.

I thought he had some really nice moments where he gave some beautiful, accurate long balls to switch play when it was bunched up.

[Hadi]

ayy namardd, ay khaennnn,, ye zamann signaturet jabbari bud, hala dige vase hadadifar nimkat neshinesh mikoni??? az posht khanjar mizani???



i would keep the same line up we played today, except maybe replace meydavoudi with mahini.

im not a big fan of ghazi, but then again, he has his advantages over ansarifard and meydavoudi. so i really dont care which of they 3 play as our center forward.

Jabbari is still a very good player but he somehow isnt the same man after his long injuries. He is slower and less creative.

[Doctor DOOM]

Not sure if we can say the left back problem is "solved" yet.
simply becoz we havent faced a team that puts our defense under decent pressure yet. from the first game CQ took over till today our defense has had a comfortable and relaxed ride. none of madagascar, qatar, maldives, bahrain, indonesia had kept any sustained pressure on our defense for us to know how the defense and specifically the LB would act under decent pressure.
one reason why our defenders feel more comfortable coming forward and joining in attacks.


but I reckon we dont have to wait too long. the next round facing (and there's no escaping) big guns like south korea, japan, aussies, ... will finally give us the answer if we have indeed found the solution to the LB or not.





getting the measure of CQ:
expressly thinking about assessing CQ's impact on the team, I really wish that red card hadnt been given, so today we could assess CQ with more assuredness. back there ... in the back of my mind I'm still not convinced by this game and for good reasons too. apart from the red card, lets not forget this was bahrain. and we can only imagine the amount of determination and motivation among our lads to deal them a blow. The kind of extra determination and drive that may not necessarily be present facing a team like south korea or japan or uzbekistan. not to mention would CQ be driving everyone forward till the dying seconds of the game had it been an 11 man opponent or a slightly more powerful one like uzbekistan or south korea? I'm not so sure, although I'd LOVE to see this to be true. that would give me extreme pleasure.


so while I admit the team has certainly and palpably improved and the trend is a positive one. I'm not going to base all my assumptions on this one game.

[zzgloo]

CQ......is for real......
.
New in TM under CQ :
.
1-Fresh talents.
2-Left back problem solved.
3-Young and experinced mixture of players.
4-No longer,taking the ball to the corners and crosses.....and more attacks from center and through the middle.
5-Shots on goals,far away shoots.
6-No hashieh.
7-Better transitions from the midfield to the offensive players.
8-better defense.,and more involvement of all defensive players during the attacks .
9-Better finishings.
10-Team work,and not just expectations from super stars.





.

[Doctor DOOM]

but majid jan, I did not deny khalatbari's few selfish moves and in fact did mention them. however I objected to some ppl (I think in the general forum also) who said he doesnt belong to the TM.
by the same token, even if nekounam has an off day I dont recommend throwing him out of the roster.

in other words, I acknowledge khalatbari's mischief and have always agreed he needs to lay off the high sugar drinks that gets his blood pumping too much adrenaline and he gets hyper and does crazy things once in a while. But at the same time, he is one of those key players who can single handedly turn a game too. just ask asian giants al-hilal or the south korean ACL former champs they defeated last season.

a good coach recognizes his uses and sits him down and drills some discipline into him. not throw him out of the roster.

as far as "yield" is concerned, i think he did help the team a bit. the second goal was off his cross, for example. and there were plenty of occasions he single handedly created dangerous chances in the box and in front of the goal .. which resulted in the chaotic and confused defending in bahrain camp.

gun to the head, I'd say he was a 6-6.5 , while neku (great in defensive duties. mehhhh in offensive ones) was at best a 7 ... while jabbari, ando, ghazi, mahini ... were all in comfortable 8's and 9's

[Hajagha]

^ Should I say I disagree with what you said about Nekonam and his game? No, I said it before, but I say it again anyway.

Yesterday, Nekonam was not supposed to have golden passes. He was not attacking mid. His role was to initiate which side we should start penetrating, left, right or deep without LOSING the ball in that area to force the the whole team to march back and defend? This means cautious passes which are far from "golden passes". He was the composure and he did it perfectly in my book. Besides, he was the inside coach. Look how much he was talking to his players one line in front of him at the beginning of the game.

Yes, he didn't score. That's why he seemed to be ineffective, but you gotta give DOUBLE credit to the leader of the team who lead his team for a historic win. That's all.

Proving my points watch the first minute of highlights of the following game (Iraq-China) and see for yourself that all highlights were from turnovers where DMs are playing.

Cheers,

[maij]

It is quite interesting to read all the differing views, and as it was a fantastic result for the boyz and we are all in a jolly mood , I would like to stir things up a bit or up the ante

Somehow I detect that some of our friends here analyze a player based on REPUTATION rather than actual PERFORMANCE !
So , if player x is a good dribbler and crosser of the ball , then he remains a good player , regardless to how he actually performs in the match !!

To me , it is no good that Nekounam is what he is , if he does not perform on the pitch. What good is a reputation if it is not utilized and yields results? I specifically took Nekounam's because I agree on the Doc's analysis of him. Yes, he is a good passer of the ball , but yesterday he was in his own cocoon with very little creative or imaginative play or contribution. Quite conservative , if I may say , and that is a continuation of his not-so-brilliant performance since the Asian Cup.

NOW...we all know that Javad can be 10 times better , he can be a match winner , he could be the key player , single-handed he has saved the team , he could be many things good and we have already seen it this remarkable player in years ...the reality is ...He wasn't all those mentioned in yesterday's game. As simple as that. The Doc is spot on on this one.

But....then the Doc , had a few minutes break and took a complete U turn when mentioning Khalatbary's case , who can "brings in a very lively element to any team he plays in..." !!

Wait a minute Doc , we know the capabilities of Nekounam and Khalatbary , I thought we are talking PERFORMANCE , DELIVERY , ACTUAL YIELD, that you complained about Nekounam not providing , but how come this is not applied to Khalatbary!!

Where is the beef?


Although , I agree on what Hadi said about the defense , I fail to see how he managed to get all those analysis in Bahrain's game when the defense was HARDLY tested?

Yes , those shortcomings of defense defiantly exists in the current squad , but for the life of me , I did not feel or observe such weakness yesterday.


All those aside , the statement that Khakatbary is very good , is simply so unique and an eye opener for me , which has made me doubt my physical and mental capabilities. I will print "Khalatabary very good" , as it sounds so poetic , frame it and stick it right in front desk , as a reminder of how old have I become and how lame my observation is and finally how those young comrades of ours excel in their analytical power.

[Martin-Reza]

I am pretty sure it was.

Just wait until the return leg and see how we play there. It is highly likely we end up with a draw at manama

Agreed, if I had to bet, I'd put my money on a draw.

And btw, I liked how Khalatbari played yesterday. He more played like a playmaker than a winger and did very well.

[Doctor DOOM]

on Nekounam:
it is one thing to speak of a player in general terms. and it is another to talk specifically about a game.
in THIS SPECIFIC GAME, nekounam's passing was sub par on most occasions. sometimes too soft, sometimes too hard. a bit loose or even a few mis-passes. watch the game and you'd discover this.

now, does that mean he CANT PASS? no. But today, when the role of the "distributor" was given to him, he didnt exactly deliver. maybe somebody else shd take up the role of the distributor of the ball and let Nekounam do what he does best.

besides, if you all have kept track of his games you'd have to agree, in general terms, his passing may be correct and accurate but it is very cautious conservative passing.
for example in his club and in TM games, if he has two options; one to his side and one more forward (deeper into the opponents lines), he almost always chooses the lateral pass.
this conservatism has been mentioned many times before too.
so when a player slowly gets tuned to this kind of passing, suddenly asking him to distribute the ball (with mostly up front, becoz we were attacking incessantly), then we'd see a new facet of his passing.


on Khalatbari:
look guys, those who know me here, also know that I am hardly impressed by "flash or dribbling". But khalatbari brings in a very lively element to any team he plays in, that many other pacey players (like gh rezaei or ... ) just fail to bring.
so obviously he has that extra bit that distinguishes him from the rest.

the problem is "HOW & WHERE" he is used. if you push him to one side, away from the middle and expect all his stuff from him, then you are wasting your time.
he is the perfect mold to the azizi of the old daei-azizi forward duo.

and in case some of us have forgotten what impact he can have in a team, we might want to watch some of TM games where he has played and most importantly, watch zob-ahan's games before and after his departure to know his impact

[RaginG Inferno]

lol Yah, like your shot on Neko. It's obvious to me that you never played as a defensive mid. Otherwise, you knew how good he was.
Cheers,

He's very, very good. He fulfils his role perfectly: Excellent maintenance of possession (he almost never loses a ball), no risky passes, and excellent long ball distribution. I sometimes shake my head in disbelief at the accuracy of his long range balls.

[Babak agha]

It'll be really interesting to see what CQ is gonna do when Karimi, Shojaei, Haddadifar and Dejagah will be available. I think Jabbari will be subbed out for Karimi, Nekounam is a fix so nothing happens there. Also I don't think Haddadifar could take Ando's places.
The most interesting part is Shojaei, what will CQ do with him? Is he gonna prefer Shojaei above Khalatbari? I don't think the right-wing will be an option, as Dejagah looks to be getting our fix right-winger. He could also play as CAM, but I think Karimi and Jabbari are ahead of him for that position.

[yashar_fasihnia]

i would start both at manama. bring in Hadadifar for Jabari

ayy namardd, ay khaennnn,, ye zamann signaturet jabbari bud, hala dige vase hadadifar nimkat neshinesh mikoni??? az posht khanjar mizani???



i would keep the same line up we played today, except maybe replace meydavoudi with mahini.

im not a big fan of ghazi, but then again, he has his advantages over ansarifard and meydavoudi. so i really dont care which of they 3 play as our center forward.