Iran - Bahrain (11 Oct 2011)

[maij]

last couple of weeks we've been talking about khalatbari's selfishness. while it is true that he sometimes behaves selfishly and tries to do everything by himself, I wanted to point out that there are far greater and more famous players that behave just as selfishly and waste chances when they could get goals with just a simple pass. namely messi, who's been showing selfishness bordering on criminal, in both la liga and champs league games at barca.

been making life so difficult for himself by trying to weave through 4-5 defenders that a simple square pass would have put his mates in goal scoring positions


so I guess this selfishness IS a part of the genius players/strikers

I have no quarrel with that selfishness theory, but there is no way that you can compare the ability , the product , the effectiveness , the yield and the standard of Messi to Khalatbari.

Messi can afford to be selfish , because he can score in one out of three selfish attempts and his records tell. What about Khalatbari's scoring record at club and Team Melli's level?

[maij]

Nokhodi and Majid e aziz........
I keep getting misunderstood.....and since by two of you I was misunderstood,..the fault must defenetly be mine.
Here is what I mean........When you go from Europian or Americaan life style, and enter IRAN...with all low class cars,andrun down buildings,and all Islamic limitations,and all male population ( as women are not seen in public as much,and if there is they would be with " Maghnae & Chador ",and all stupid elementary system,etc,etc,etc......for a very good while, the traveler is in state of " Culture Shock "....specialy with so much contrast........
In fact, I believe even, Messi of Argentina,would feel the same for a short while, and not be as efficient when he goes back and play " Immidiatly " for Argentiaan national team..unless after a while staying in the country .

OK...I see your point clearly now.

[Babak agha]

So how selfish are: Xavi, Ineasta, Fabregas, Gerard, Silva, Ozil, Muller, Sneijder etc etc? Or the oldies Maradona, pelatini, Pele, Gullit,......

Selfishness is (usually) a sign of/due to immaturity, and you can't do anything about it, time and age will cure it. Remember the young Karimi versus the Karimi of recent years?

Another major factors causing selfishness is the lack of vision, overview, self control, mental weakness etc.

[Doctor DOOM]

last couple of weeks we've been talking about khalatbari's selfishness. while it is true that he sometimes behaves selfishly and tries to do everything by himself, I wanted to point out that there are far greater and more famous players that behave just as selfishly and waste chances when they could get goals with just a simple pass. namely messi, who's been showing selfishness bordering on criminal, in both la liga and champs league games at barca.

been making life so difficult for himself by trying to weave through 4-5 defenders that a simple square pass would have put his mates in goal scoring positions

so I guess this selfishness IS a part of the genius players/strikers

[zzgloo]

I'm sorry zzgloo jan, but that logic is completely outdated, especially for the newer generation of Iranians.
If you're talking about jetlag, thats' natural. But it applies for almost all international players, particularly Asians, Africans and South Americans. Does it mean Messi is less professional? Or Kaka, or....
Trust me these guys are waited on hand and foot when they're Iran. If they have 1 mistress in Spain, they have 10 in Iran. They have tons of real estate, commercial ventures, vehicles.... in Iran and even outside.
They don't need our pity or excuses.

Nokhodi and Majid e aziz........
I keep getting misunderstood.....and since by two of you I was misunderstood,..the fault must defenetly be mine.
Here is what I mean........When you go from Europian or Americaan life style, and enter IRAN...with all low class cars,andrun down buildings,and all Islamic limitations,and all male population ( as women are not seen in public as much,and if there is they would be with " Maghnae & Chador ",and all stupid elementary system,etc,etc,etc......for a very good while, the traveler is in state of " Culture Shock "....specialy with so much contrast........
In fact, I believe even, Messi of Argentina,would feel the same for a short while, and not be as efficient when he goes back and play " Immidiatly " for Argentiaan national team..unless after a while staying in the country .

[Nokhodi]

Majid Aziz..
I totaly agree...as far as thier life style...and what I meant was because of that ....
How could a young arrogant good looking guy like nekunam...with couple of girl friends and perhaps a misteres....with a top of the line car,and a modern apartement..going to top places,in Spain...and under a very different management system in osasona.....all of the sudden get a plain and a 5 hour flight go to Iran, with third world country standard and islamic limitations,and time difference ...and be on the field next day...and play with efficiency ?
I myself, that I not very rich, feel disoriented for a whole week when I go to IRAN...and not just time wise, but as for " Culture shock " !

I'm sorry zzgloo jan, but that logic is completely outdated, especially for the newer generation of Iranians.
If you're talking about jetlag, thats' natural. But it applies for almost all international players, particularly Asians, Africans and South Americans. Does it mean Messi is less professional? Or Kaka, or....
Trust me these guys are waited on hand and foot when they're Iran. If they have 1 mistress in Spain, they have 10 in Iran. They have tons of real estate, commercial ventures, vehicles.... in Iran and even outside.
They don't need our pity or excuses.

[zzgloo]

Bahram Jan.

The last thing I will be concerned with , is the social and financial affairs of the Iranian players.

Make no mistake , these players ( and I am talking about those who play in Iran , not the expatriates) earn so much money and have so much clout , it makes a mockery of the claims by Iranians who always and systematically complain about lack of money ( at least the ones I always seem to meet in Iran ). Of course , I have sympathy with people in Iran because their income and wages is so low compared to neighboring countries , and to my surprise , Tehran is an expensive place to live. But with footballers...it is 180 degrees turn in fortune.

No need to mention names , but when a 22 or 23 years old footballer drives to the practice ground in a series 5 BMW or latest Lexus, ( I am sure you know how much these cars cost in Iran) it says a lot about the footballers in the Iranian society and parity with other employees or professionals. Watching these rich boys in practice are hundereds and sometimes thousands of poor boys who come across from the remotest areas in dahat, some of whom only dream. is to shake hand with his idol or if he is lucky , to take a quick snapshot. I also like to add that not all of these footballers have PR manners, some of them are arrogant and down right rude , not to mention what they call "Hersat" , normally the least educated of people taking care of security.

Anyway , I wouldn't feel sorry for the Iranian footballers emotional roller coaster. It is a measly inconvenience compared to the dollars they earn.

Majid Aziz..
I totaly agree...as far as thier life style...and what I meant was because of that ....
How could a young arrogant good looking guy like nekunam...with couple of girl friends and perhaps a misteres....with a top of the line car,and a modern apartement..going to top places,in Spain...and under a very different management system in osasona.....all of the sudden get a plain and a 5 hour flight go to Iran, with third world country standard and islamic limitations,and time difference ...and be on the field next day...and play with efficiency ?
I myself, that I not very rich, feel disoriented for a whole week when I go to IRAN...and not just time wise, but as for " Culture shock " !

[maij]

Players like Nekunam....are in a emotional roller coaster !!!
Who knows what kind of life he has in Spain, and what kind of situation he is under in Ossasuna, with a higher demanding system...when he is asked to come and play for TM..in middle of his already tense life style....when he travels from " TIME TUNNEL ", and goes to a third world country ....
He is bound to be always inconsistant !

Bahram Jan.

The last thing I will be concerned with , is the social and financial affairs of the Iranian players.

Make no mistake , these players ( and I am talking about those who play in Iran , not the expatriates) earn so much money and have so much clout , it makes a mockery of the claims by Iranians who always and systematically complain about lack of money ( at least the ones I always seem to meet in Iran ). Of course , I have sympathy with people in Iran because their income and wages is so low compared to neighboring countries , and to my surprise , Tehran is an expensive place to live. But with footballers...it is 180 degrees turn in fortune.

No need to mention names , but when a 22 or 23 years old footballer drives to the practice ground in a series 5 BMW or latest Lexus, ( I am sure you know how much these cars cost in Iran) it says a lot about the footballers in the Iranian society and parity with other employees or professionals. Watching these rich boys in practice are hundereds and sometimes thousands of poor boys who come across from the remotest areas in dahat, some of whom only dream. is to shake hand with his idol or if he is lucky , to take a quick snapshot. I also like to add that not all of these footballers have PR manners, some of them are arrogant and down right rude , not to mention what they call "Hersat" , normally the least educated of people taking care of security.

Anyway , I wouldn't feel sorry for the Iranian footballers emotional roller coaster. It is a measly inconvenience compared to the dollars they earn.

[RaginG Inferno]

I think we all at least, agree he is a very good players. but like the rest of the players, not indispensable or irreplaceable. EVERY SINGLE player in TM is replaceable .... maybe with the exception of rahmati & hosseini ... perhaps.


the only thing imo is he shdnt be given the task of distributing the ball. he simply is not as imaginative and creative as a playmaker or distributor ought to be. hopefully with the return of hadadifar, he can take over this role, leaving nekounam to concentrate on what he does best.

.... which raises another major problem; whom to sacrifice for hadadifar. ando seems to have hit a high note and is doing well. karimi is a crowd favorite and he seems to be doing well too (given enough rest time between games). quite a dilemma for CQ

and that's what most iranian coaches have faced. an embarrassment of riches in the midfield

It's a good problem to have, as you recognise.

It seems good to stick with the existing arrangement, but if we see problems in the midfield, then we should reconsider the arrangement as appropriate.

[Babak agha]

^Maybe true

But it should be worse for African and S. American players, but we don't see them "suffering".

And it's not like Neku goes to halabi abad, he is a rich super star in Iran who treated with more "respect" and "chabloosi" in Iran than in Spain, so......

[zzgloo]

Players like Nekunam....are in a emotional roller coaster !!!
Who knows what kind of life he has in Spain, and what kind of situation he is under in Ossasuna, with a higher demanding system...when he is asked to come and play for TM..in middle of his already tense life style....when he travels from " TIME TUNNEL ", and goes to a third world country ....
He is bound to be always inconsistant !

[Doctor DOOM]

I think we all at least, agree he is a very good players. but like the rest of the players, not indispensable or irreplaceable. EVERY SINGLE player in TM is replaceable .... maybe with the exception of rahmati & hosseini ... perhaps.


the only thing imo is he shdnt be given the task of distributing the ball. he simply is not as imaginative and creative as a playmaker or distributor ought to be. hopefully with the return of hadadifar, he can take over this role, leaving nekounam to concentrate on what he does best.

.... which raises another major problem; whom to sacrifice for hadadifar. ando seems to have hit a high note and is doing well. karimi is a crowd favorite and he seems to be doing well too (given enough rest time between games). quite a dilemma for CQ

and that's what most iranian coaches have faced. an embarrassment of riches in the midfield

[RaginG Inferno]

it is interesting to debate Nekounam's role and performance as it takes me back to the Asian Cup days in Doha . We had several round-table ( tables full of foods and drinks) debates in the media centers amongst the Iranian media personnel about the players including Javad. Like one expects , there were differing opinions but the majority felt that Javad could do better. There was one exception of an extreme viewpoint by one journalist who was the editor-in-chief of a major Iran daily sport newspaper. His comments are not printable , sufffuce to say that it was not complementary at all towards Nekounam.

I am personally not satisfied with Nekounam. I am not talking this match against Bahrain , of course , but series of matches. However , as a fan there is little than we can do or say about it. I just hope that whatever hinders Nekounam to play towards his potential , is addressed and resolved by a shrewd man like CQ.
I am also not worried abou Nekounam not being able to play, as the midfield is the richest of all the lines in Team Melli and there are quite a few options available.


Last but not least , I fundementely differ with you on the concept of "Safe play". This term is used when a team is playing against a stronger * better opposition , and you are leading by a 1 goal margin and want to waste time without grass-rolling. Else safe square passing can be carried out by thousands of players in the league , there is no specialty or skill in that. Why should Nekounam occupy a place for safe passing?

I think you're concentrating a little too much on your unhappinesss with his 'safe passing' without considering his other positive attributes.

He also has excellent positioning. He knows when to fall back, he knows when to stay forward, he knows when to track a player, he knows when to tackle. It's really difficult to observe when you're not in the stadium, but he is so smart off the ball which makes his contribution seem effortless. I think the game against Qatar really showed that - our midfield seemed significantly weaker in controlling possession.

He also made some excellent switches of play with impressive accuracy. He has that vision and accuracy with the long ball that is unique amongst Iranian players/

I do agree that his approach was a little too cautious on a few occasions, but I am happy with how he played overall.

Anyway, it's certainly something to keep an eye on over the next few games.

[maij]

You know, that's a very reasonable point. It also highlights the fundamental reason for our disagreement.

I have interpreted Neku's role a little differently to yours - which makes our assessments different...they are not based on the same criteria.


In any case, I felt that he could have played better. However, I was very satisfied with his safe play which kept possession with Iran, and didn't allow Bahrain to form any attacks. I didn't feel that he needed to be adventurous either, given our numerical advantage.

it is interesting to debate Nekounam's role and performance as it takes me back to the Asian Cup days in Doha . We had several round-table ( tables full of foods and drinks) debates in the media centers amongst the Iranian media personnel about the players including Javad. Like one expects , there were differing opinions but the majority felt that Javad could do better. There was one exception of an extreme viewpoint by one journalist who was the editor-in-chief of a major Iran daily sport newspaper. His comments are not printable , sufffuce to say that it was not complementary at all towards Nekounam.

I am personally not satisfied with Nekounam. I am not talking this match against Bahrain , of course , but series of matches. However , as a fan there is little than we can do or say about it. I just hope that whatever hinders Nekounam to play towards his potential , is addressed and resolved by a shrewd man like CQ.
I am also not worried abou Nekounam not being able to play, as the midfield is the richest of all the lines in Team Melli and there are quite a few options available.


Last but not least , I fundementely differ with you on the concept of "Safe play". This term is used when a team is playing against a stronger * better opposition , and you are leading by a 1 goal margin and want to waste time without grass-rolling. Else safe square passing can be carried out by thousands of players in the league , there is no specialty or skill in that. Why should Nekounam occupy a place for safe passing?

[Babak agha]

Hadi jan,

Especially in a game like last one you should zoom in on the performance of Neku.

We all know that Neku isn't a master tackler, a rough physical player, nor is he fast enough to be the interceptor. So he isn't the pure defensive midfielder like de Jong, Diara etc. where you can forget the "safe" passes in favor of good defending.

He is there to dictate the game, and start the attacking game of TM, especially since our CBs are not capable of doing that. If Aghili and Hosseini keep playing the "safe" pass to eachother, the LB, RB, and the DM, then we can't complain too much a this is TM and not Holland, Spain, etc. But when the fisrst half of your team lacks creativity then you have a problem.

It means that the second half of your team (from the AM to ST) has to both buildup the game and finish the attack, which is not realistics, especially for 90 min. And the lack of creativity and ability of building up a forward play (throu the center) is obvious in TM, as the AM and the forwards come to collect the ball instead of thinking about positioning themselves for a run.

And if Neku can't perform well against a 10 men team, by distributing the ball, dictating the pace of the game, swapping the side where the forward rushes take place by crosses etc, then he won't be able to do it against better teams with 11 players who actually pressurize you. Then he definitely will keep playing the "safe" passes.

Furthermore, who are we kidding? This isn't the first "bad" (at least below his potential) game by Neku. He's only lucky that he scores often (only from corners, and free kicks. Which Hosseini and Aghili cam too) which masks his poor performances.