(Editorial) Ghotbi Fails Again!

[Babak agha]

and ali jan, that goddess is Monica Bellucci

There are some internet rumors (I bet the source is some Iranian) that she has some Iranian (her grandpa or something ) going on.....

How about that for being on topic

[Doctor DOOM]

ali jan, dont want to go around in circles (and you concurred too), but only a couple of points:


#1- it wasnt ghtbi so much who as responsible for the transition from the old guard (like karimi, VH, ...) to the new faces (like khalatbari, rezaei, ....) . it was daei.
ghtbi merely continued daei's to a degree with bringing in arash afshins and hadadifards.



#2 - again, I must repeat (hopefully for the last time) it wasnt the fans who played the game, nor the pfdc members. it was the players, on whom ghtboi's immense fright was conveyed (from his selection, formation and tactics). we did go over this and I remember I even brought up the matter of stress hormones (cortisol) and ... . so I have nothing else to add on this issue beside what I have already.





I think I shd refer to armin's post where he correctly says all three coaches failed. especially when it mattered the most ( for example all those unbeaten stats of GN never helped when it mattered the most).
whereas we see ppl clamoring to hide gotbi's failures and trying to provide a cover for him that is not so relevant (different categories ... ).

I could say the daei or GN camps never used the same excuses to cover their failings. did we have magnificent facilities then? did we have marvelous youth programs then? did we have great infrastructure and fantastic stadia and ..... on their time?
NO. but ...... .
you see what I mean now?


anyway, I guess we're all tired of this back and forth and are giving gthbi too much importance that's way beyond him


in the end all I want from our football is to behave with a spine. even if they are going to get defeated, get beaten like MEN, with our heads held high.
not like mice, coming in already having lost before stepping on the pitch and displaying a gutless football that screams this fear.
that's all.
even if we lose, we can hold our heads high, chest in front and say at least we played football.
big difference from what we saw recently


===============

and to keano.
surely you didnt think we were incapable of opening a thread and proposing a topic and then saying "ok, ppl .. discuss" !!!

as cheeky as you tried to be, the purpose was to make you address that aspect of football yourself to see how different it is from the more technical and focused (match-oriented) discussions. and yet, you havent done that
not so cheeky to escape being caught, I'm afraid

=========

and ali jan, that goddess is Monica Bellucci

[Ali Chicago]

Your wish granted, now please kindly click on the link provided below and enlighten us DD jaan!

Infrastuructural and fundamental shortcomings of Iranian football a valid reason for our football failure?

Thanks for providing the nicest XXX pictures as your avatar. You sure have an eye for picking up beautiful ladies I bet (at least based on pictures you post).

[The-Red]

For me it is only a case of another coach failing at TM and now that he is gone, let's bash him. That said, I appreciate agha Mansoor's insight and analysis as no doubt you have been a great asset to this site. However, I have to say that I can't help it but to side somewhat with Keano's argument. It is only normal that the scale of success of an out-going coach should be compared with other coaches before him. It's all relative; what we have had in the past, compare to what we just had, and when I look at it from that angle, I see no change, and I would even argue, with my little football knowledge that I viewed more "entertaining football" during Ghotbi's era than I did while I watched TM under Daie or even GN. Of course this last part is a matter of opinion but regardless, the only fact is that all three previous coaches at TM failed and did NOT deliver.
The main problem them becomes what did they all have in common; Well, all three GN, Daie, and Ghotbi were selected by personal preference of some individual, not football experts, and all three were Iranian coaches who talked "big" but when it came to performance failed miserably. This whole thing tells me instead of arguing over Ghotbi's lack of knowledge in the game, we should conclude that one; before discussing the qualification of a coach we should look at how they were selected to coach in the first place and second; ask why in the world would we be satisfied or even hopeful with the Iranian coaches (at least the ones that are select-able and have close ties to the IFF or STB) when there is a pattern of failure?
Thanks everyone for their input btw. I sincerely enjoy reading everyone's opinion in the football plus.

[Keano]

you please make a new thread on that subject matter and we can discuss that within its boundaries. I'm sure many of us are happy to do so.

Your wish granted, now please kindly click on the link provided below and enlighten us DD jaan!

Infrastuructural and fundamental shortcomings of Iranian football a valid reason for our football failure?

[zzgloo]

Ok, first lets do away with this “dar o takhteh” bit as it shd be past our age.

Cyber Friend e Aziz.....There is no " dar o takhteh ".......
Mansoor reffered me to read your post, ...I did , and did not satisfy me.....
I hope we could stay friends regardless.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali Jaan......
I do not know what you mean by : " You are preaching to the choir " !!
I do not think I misunderstood you......,nor do I disagree with you...
Your point is : " If we want to scrutinize coaching " why only do it only with Ghotbi "...
My point : Ghotbi , is the wrong party to critisize...his lack of qualification , not only will not justify Iranian Football's shortcomings, but also, it acctualy was an improvement to his predeccesor.......
In American presidential elections..they always ask this question :
" Are you better off after our first term than previouse adminesration ?? "
And comparing , at the shamble after the snub by Clemente,and transitional period, and lack of direction during Daei .........
With, more cohesive,TM with chemistry,and respectable results..and better foundation to work for future coach.........
We are better off, and the fact that , a Non-qualified coach,such as Ghotbi, did this....says a lot about our domestic coaches abilities.

Preaching to the choir means we agree on the samething. Choir people are probably religious already (so they don't need preaching)!!!!

And while at the issue of Ghotbi, let me mention how low class was the interview by Javad Nekoonam. He playes in Europe adn I expected much more based on his personality in the past. It is one thing to criticize the coach or question his tactic after he left, it is one thing to use the past coach to jusity's one's performance. Javad gave up key bad passes in front of our defence in key games (Iraq and South Korea), why he did that. This wasn't an offensive duty. So unprofessional of him.

[Ali Chicago]

Payman Jaan;

We can go back and forth but in nutshell, I listed what I thought was positive things Ghotbi did in TM.

On limiting the movement radius of a player that can be the wrong decision I agree. But the mere fact that you make an Iranian player to follow a tactic to me is a positive thign (at least at this moment). Beleive me Payman, when you are a coach, if the players don't follow your tactic it is really frutstrating. All in all if our players follow coaching staff instruction it is a positive step (at least for now).

On Karimi and Majidi, Karimi is 32 and he will play in Schalke now. Majidi had a very good season in SS. So crossing these two names needed big balls (balls the GN didn't have when he took over TM in 2007).

You have been around and witnessed how much I called for calmness while GN was in charge. How much I wrote when Ala was doing his dog and pony show with the implicit support of many on PFDC. In retrospect I wish GN then hadn't taken over. I like Amir GN in 2011 much more than the GN in 2007. This GN isn't as brash, is much more humble, isn't as confrontational.

GN when took over the TM in 2007, needed to do a revolution IMHO and get rid of the old gaurd, Zandi, Madanchi and bring new blood to the TM. Then at least he could haev said, see I am puttign the foundation in place for future, But he kept Branko's team in place and we saw the end game. Ghotbi (granted he had the luxury of time), changed the skeleton of the TM, calling Talebi, Hadadifar, Afshin, playing Karim Ansarifard against N and S. Korea, crossing off Hashemian, Karimi, Majidi, ..... These are all positive things.

Ghotbi was timid against S. Korea (but it wasn't only him), our players were, our fans (including 80% of PFDC members were), but now that we lost the game everyone grills him only. Plus hindsight is 20/20. He gambled and lost, he deserves criticism, but let's don't throw the baby out with the bath water (i.e. undermine good things were done under his reign).

[Doctor DOOM]

He added a lot in my opinion in list form:

1. He improved tremendously the defensive organization of the team.
2. He established organization in the TM as far as what is the movement radius of each TM player (See Javad Nekoonam and Mohammad Reza Khalatbari interview as unprofessional especially Java Nekoonam was).
3. He improved team fitness
4. He created a team rather than a team who rests on superstars. When Ali Karimi didnt' play ball (he was ready to cross off his name and even Majidi), without a showmanship in the sprot papers in Iran.

Ghotbi had failuers as well and there were a lot that still not done as well. So I have no problme with an analystical post mortem analysis of his performance. But in order to do that, I should see imaprtiality in person who evaluates him.
The difference between you and I is the fact that you think there is this one person (like Imam Zaman who you think is Denizili or Guss Hiddink) will come and fix TM. I think the process of improvement in the TM is a gradual process and Ghotbi did a few stops in the right direction (I think Ali Daie helm in the TM for example was a few steps back, even GN). But Ghotbi wasn't.
Things are improving in Iran whether we like it or not of course not to the pace we like(as much I hate this regime). Compare the coach selection process this time compared to the time they brought Clemente, or when they chose GN, or Ali Daie. So as much as I dislike current IFF staff, I welcome this improvement (as small as it is). It is the same mentality with the post mortem of Ghotbi performance.

Thank you for enumerating some issues.

Allow me to agree or disagree with some, by bringing my own examples and opinion too.

1- Defensively, I agree. He really worked on this and I believe most of his time with the team was focused on this.


2- You count restricting the radius of activity for players as a good thing, while another person may say that was one thing that really hurt us.
Nekounam, himself addressed this as a negative factor which prohibited him to come forward (which would have brought the huge gap between the defensive men of the team (all 8 of them) with the 3 stranded ones up front.
Therefore I actually count this as a fault rather an achievement. Something borne out of his utter fright of any decent opposition which forced him to focus so much on defensive matters.

this issue goes back to the nature of each nation's football. so while this may be a good move and point when we talk about germans or brits or swedes, it is pretty destructive and unproductive when we do the very same thing with south american football.
now I believe our football's natural style is more aligned with the south american one than the likes of germans. dont you?

it also reflects on how poorly ghtbi knew our own football (aside from his kaf-e dast koreans) and its natural style!!


3- Team fitness was good. But that was something others have done too. So nothing unique about this.
I remember under GN, our team ran for 120 minutes pressuring the same south Koreans, BUT IN A MORE DIFFICULT & ENERGY SAPPING ENVIRONMENT (Malaysian heat & humidity)
So basically he didn’t do anything new or improve. He did what any coach shd do and previous ones had done.


4- I agree he had a team with no spoilt brat in it, acting as a center of gravity.
Could it also be a coincidence that at the moment was simply DON’T HAVE such “centers of gravity” in iran anymore? Both majidi and karimi were just too old to be included anyway.
But on the whole, I agree his team was more a team than a bunch of players gathered about a select few.



If you bring up what you “quote of me” saying “X will fix TM” then I’d be happy to discuss such a thing. but until then I'd appreciate it if you made sure the sources were good.
thank god , you at least said “fix TM”. I’ve come across ppl claiming I say “Mr. X shd come and save our football and fix our football and …. !!!!”

Having said that, I do say having a better coach does have its influence in better performing teams. Coz while we always will suffer from the more general influences (culture, bad foundation, crummy youth programs, bad facilities, …), but at least with a good coach we can be spared of defective selection, bad arrangements and horrible substitutions and horrendous game reading. (that’s why I say there are various categories that need to be addressed SEPARATELY within their own realms)

I also disagree how you say GN and daei were regression but ghtbi was progress.
As I count each one’s pros and cons, I see more pros in the former two than the latter chap.

[zzgloo]

Halleliuah. You are preaching to the choir brother. I think you misundrestood the point of my post. To be clear, my points was people who have high standards for analyzing Ghotbi and GN (which I have no problme with and they should), should have the same standards for evaluation of other coaches (we al know who I am talking about). It seems a double standard to me.

Ali Jaan......
I do not know what you mean by : " You are preaching to the choir " !!
I do not think I misunderstood you......,nor do I disagree with you...
Your point is : " If we want to scrutinize coaching " why only do it only with Ghotbi "...
My point : Ghotbi , is the wrong party to critisize...his lack of qualification , not only will not justify Iranian Football's shortcomings, but also, it acctualy was an improvement to his predeccesor.......

In American presidential elections..they always ask this question :
" Are you better off after our first term than previouse adminesration ?? "

And comparing , at the shamble after the snub by Clemente,and transitional period, and lack of direction during Daei .........
With, more cohesive,TM with chemistry,and respectable results..and better foundation to work for future coach.........

We are better off, and the fact that , a Non-qualified coach,such as Ghotbi, did this....says a lot about our domestic coaches abilities.

[Doctor DOOM]

Ali jaan......
We remember how TM was,while waiting for Celement's snub !!!
tm was in shamble,...then Ali daei came,presented even more shamble, a team with no cohesiveness, and a team playing very elementary,predictable ,low class football.....with a lot of " Eddeaa ",and bad mouth by Daei.......
Then, IFF, with three games left,and certainty of failier to go to WC, gives in to Ghotbi's loby,the secound time, as Daei's Loby were stronger the first time.......
Ghotbi comes,after wining the championship with PP,.. starts the relaxation of tentions, and start with what he himself called " New Culture ".....no criticisms of others, being nice to media,and TM with less hashieh,and pomping self esteem,with his American charactor....and trying to create better chamistry.........All team melli players, including his later bashers, have admited to having the best atmospher ever in TM, under Ghotbi.....
he goes to two Koreas,ties and beats the South Koreans in thier own country...he did it, while the South Koreans were the better team !!,....and you and I know, the only way to beat a better team, on thier own field, you must have better coaching plan and inside info......, which proved he knew about South Korean syle........although, better coaching can only go so far,and can not be relied on to counter 35 point difference in FIFA ranking for long.
Then he advances to the secound round of Asian Cup very convinsingly, and loses to the team, every body feared for long.........and even anticipated....with one goal......( Granted ,his counter part,the South Korean coach had read his previouse plan well,...so Tm gets into trouble in the first half)........but as Rahmati said, if TM did not create many chances ,niether did South Korea.........
And at then end, he leaves TM ,in far better situation than when he recieved it from Daei, with 21 point advancement on FIFA ranking.
This was the whole stroy..........
Now, one may ask to prioritize.....and see our fellow Iranian fans in IRAN have got right among the issues:
1- Low Class of domestic coaching.
2-lack of having style in Iranian football.
3-being far behind,South Korea & japan, in understanding of today's football.
4-IFF,management,Governement interfirance,polectial isolation,etc.
5-lack of proffesionality.
6-Ghotbi.
The only , easy, immidiate satisfaction, choice chosen, is to gang up against a ghotbi, who has no support in IRAN, and is a good puching bag........
That was how things were prioritized in IRAN.....and thats why we keep staying behind.
It is said by some, we need to critisize, so such things would never happen again...........not noticing, this type criticisms, and prioritizing has all happened far too often ,and will happen again...........
.
It is the exact opposite ,we need to make sure should never happen again......and that is, critising the wrong issues!
.

Ok, first lets do away with this “dar o deevar” bit as it shd be past our age.


Let me address as I read:
1- First of all, ghtbi did not come in immediately after winning IPL. If you remember, he was FIRED out of pp for a string of bad performances that forced PP management to fire him. He was jobless, living in uae with no job offers until IFF offered him the TM job.

Now, “HOW” he got the job is open to discussion. Some say he got it through his great track record, some say it was through his media mafia and lobby. I’m not going to speculate on this issue as I am not as informed on this as some others like mansoor.


2- Secondly, ghtbi was NOT hired to promote culture in speaking/dealing with media. Nor was he hired to relax tensions or be nice to media or … .NONE OF THAT.
He was hired TO LEAD THE COUNTRY’S NATIONAL TEAM ON THE FOOTBALL PITCH.
Which puts the priorities of his job on the more technical and tactical aspects of football, and only after these issue, the other ones like dealing with media or promoting culture and … etc.

If you hire a carpenter for a carpentry job, your foremost priority is how good a carpenter he is and if he can DO THE JOB. Not how he’ll deal with the neighbors’ dog or … .


3- I admit until a few days ago, I also thought the atmosphere at TM was among the most relaxed and bereft of controversy for a long time.
But after nekounam’s (and some others’) revelations, I don’t know how much of that was true.


4- “beats” the Koreans is such a general term that if this wasn’t used as evidence for ghtbi’s “kaf-e dast” issue, I would have let it slide. But since it IS being used as a tool to prove something, then I have to bring up the “HOW” also.

Since the “HOW” matters and is more relevant than just a scoreline in an inconsequential game. And the “HOW” has been explained time and again. Whether you want to deny the reality or not. It prove (along with the other 2 games vs. south korea) how far from the truth ghtbi’s claims of knowing korea was. All 3 games showed he had very little idea what korea was about.
ALL THE 3 GAMES.


So no matter how many times we repeat “he knew them, he knew their style, he knew …”, unfortunately REALITY will not alter itself. His line ups, arrangements and real-time game reading and substitutions PROVE he had very little idea what korea was about. And that is the reality.


5- Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending what side we are on), iran was not playing those “35 point difference”. Iran was playing against another 11 men, on that PARTICULAR day, with that PARTICULAR performance, under those PARTICULAR circumstances.
It is not beyond reality for a team to play below their normal levels on a PARTICULAR day. Japan beating argentina, spain conceding 4 (shd have been more) from argentina, Maldives drawing south korea (world’s 4th best team at the time), Nigeria beating the world champions, … etc etc etc and a million other examples PROVE this point too.


6- The matter of fifa ranking is such a ridiculous issue that I expected members of F+ to have a more sane view of it than the kids in general forum. To use fifa ranking as basis of ANY sort of defense? Come now. We’re all grown ups here. We shd know better.


7- I didn’t understand the reason for that 6 item list. Was it according to the degree of influence of each item on our football? Was it merely counting some random issues with our football? Was it … ?


8- I think for the millionth time that this has been discussed, we all ought to be capable of compartmentalizing and categorizing the problems and shortcomings of a country’s football without mixing them into one single bundle.

When you computer has a problem you approach it from different CATEGORIES. Is it software or hardware. Within software, is it the operating system or just a program or is it your antivirus. Or … etc. nobody bundles everything up together. Coz that way, nothing gets solved.
when you're building a house, you have different compartments and categories to attend to. electrical, carpentry, plumbing, ... . you dont go around with a screw driver trying to fix a plumbing job. or a hammer trying to fix a circuitry.

And maybe this is why we still have crummy foundations in our football. Becoz we make such a conundrum of our problems mixed up altogether (like ash-e sholeghalamkar) that even god cant fix it … let alone idiots like IFF heads or TB fools or … .


9- Criticism and prioritizing has been “attempted”, but nothing comes out of them becoz they are resisted by many groups. From the fans of individuals, to the ppl related to a certain sector, to the managers and officials who don’t want to be blamed, to the higher ups who only appear when there’s some glory & limelight, to those responsible for bad culture, to … etc.

But by denying the faults or covering the mistakes, what is left to be learned? Hell, all that’d be left is ppl come and say coach X or manager Y or player Z was great (coz nobody wanted to “criticize or bring up the faults”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
That’s called “running away from a problem”, which usually has a way of finding you, no matter how many times it is swept under the carpet. Chances are it will find you in most inopportune times too!!

[Ali Chicago]

bi khial ali jan, even when ppl leave it off, you friends are not letting it go.



I really am interested to know in your opinions what specifically was added to TM by ghtbi?
it's very easy saying "he added a lot". and most probably according to bahram jan above, that would be a very valid, precise and correct observation.

but if we get into REAL issues and dissect matters and point to specifics, that suddenly becomes invalid and ...err... "unsatisfactory"? lol.
how?
based on what?

why shd I accept the comment "he added a lot" while I see a LIST of precise and real issues that point the other way?

I find it hard to change my mind when on one side I have valid examples and specific issues that point to ghtbi's incompetence as a national team coach and on the other I have a very general "opinion" that "he achieved a lot".
how is that "objective"?

maybe if you ppl enumerate all these "achievements" perhaps a neutral person can come to a more reliable conclusion.

and thankfully majid's website tracks all the game stats, especially the wins/losses of each coach. but even that is somehow "denied" and refuted!!!!



secondly, ali jan, we both know we can revisit the threads for those games you refer to (TM versus ksa and uae) and very easily your above comments can be disproven.
why? becoz some of us put aside our personal favorites (be it daei, GN or ghtbi) and put TM as the top priority. some of us dont try our best to cover and muddle things just becoz if found clear, our favorite PERSON will be found guilty or a part of the problem.
case in point shd be very apparent to you especially with whom I have had plenty of debate over daei, who has always been my favorite player.

but even my favorite iranian footballer in the history of iran did not enjoy immunity when it came to TEAM MELLI.
I, unlike many others, did not put my favorites above that of Iran and TM ... while we see plenty of ppl do so for ghtbi. so much that they are ready to put down and berate great ppl like mahdavikia just becoz they cant bear it if ghtbi is criticized!!!!
why?
why shd we sacrifice great ppl like daei or kia or ... for someone who is not worth their little toe nail, someone who hasnt done a fraction of what they have done for iranian football?
where is the fairness in that?





for example, none of you bothered to ask why didnt ghtbi come back with the team. dont tell me he had a contract. 2 days delay wouldnt have annulled it.
hell, the whole japanese team was away at the time. so it's not as if the J-league was kept waiting & stalled for mr. guradiola's twin.
and more importantly, none of you answered this simple Q: you still think he'd have run to japan without coming to iran, if we had won the trophy?
or reached the final?
or even the semis after beating his "kaf-e dast" team?
you know why? becoz even you ppl know he'd have come back. even if you dont admit it openly.

therefore it is very wrong to attack nekounam or khalatbari or X or Y for speaking up AFTER the games are done just becoz ghtbi didnt have the guts, integrity or sense of responsibility to come back with the team ... even for a day or two.... so he would answer all these players and others.

nobody put a gun to his head to "bezane be chaak".
it is easy to be around ppl when they are successful and winning and on top of the world.
but the TRUE character of an individual is revealed when they do this in HARD TIMES.
and if any one of you was fair, you'd admit ghtbi's character was nowhere near what we all thought.



we get so engrossed and entrenched in our stance against some ppl or some idea that we forget all about fairness and truth. all that matters at that time is for us to "prove the other side wrong" .... most often by any means possible!

He added a lot in my opinion in list form:

1. He improved tremendously the defensive organization of the team.
2. He established organization in the TM as far as what is the movement radius of each TM player (See Javad Nekoonam and Mohammad Reza Khalatbari interview as unprofessional especially Java Nekoonam was).
3. He improved team fitness
4. He created a team rather than a team who rests on superstars. When Ali Karimi didnt' play ball (he was ready to cross off his name and even Majidi), without a showmanship in the sprot papers in Iran.

Ghotbi had failuers as well and there were a lot that still not done as well. So I have no problme with an analystical post mortem analysis of his performance. But in order to do that, I should see imaprtiality in person who evaluates him.
The difference between you and I is the fact that you think there is this one person (like Imam Zaman who you think is Denizili or Guss Hiddink) will come and fix TM. I think the process of improvement in the TM is a gradual process and Ghotbi did a few stops in the right direction (I think Ali Daie helm in the TM for example was a few steps back, even GN). But Ghotbi wasn't.


Things are improving in Iran whether we like it or not of course not to the pace we like(as much I hate this regime). Compare the coach selection process this time compared to the time they brought Clemente, or when they chose GN, or Ali Daie. So as much as I dislike current IFF staff, I welcome this improvement (as small as it is). It is the same mentality with the post mortem of Ghotbi performance.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jaan......
We remember how TM was,while waiting for Celement's snub !!!
tm was in shamble,...then Ali daei came,presented even more shamble, a team with no cohesiveness, and a team playing very elementary,predictable ,low class football.....with a lot of " Eddeaa ",and bad mouth by Daei.......
Then, IFF, with three games left,and certainty of failier to go to WC, gives in to Ghotbi's loby,the secound time, as Daei's Loby were stronger the first time.......
Ghotbi comes,after wining the championship with PP,.. starts the relaxation of tentions, and start with what he himself called " New Culture ".....no criticisms of others, being nice to media,and TM with less hashieh,and pomping self esteem,with his American charactor....and trying to create better chamistry.........All team melli players, including his later bashers, have admited to having the best atmospher ever in TM, under Ghotbi.....
he goes to two Koreas,ties and beats the South Koreans in thier own country...he did it, while the South Koreans were the better team !!,....and you and I know, the only way to beat a better team, on thier own field, you must have better coaching......, which proved he knew about South Korean syle........although, better coaching can only go so far,and can not be relied on to counter 35 point difference in FIFA ranking for long.
Then he advances to the secound round of Asian Cup very convinsingly, and loses to the team, every body feared for long.........and even anticipated....with one goal......( Granted ,his counter part,the South Korean coach had read his previouse plan well,...so Tm gets into trouble in the first half)........but as Rahmati said, if TM did not create many chances ,niether did South Korea.........
And at then end, he leaves TM ,in far better situation than when he recieved it from Daei, with 21 point advancement on FIFA ranking.
This was the whole stroy..........
Now, one may ask to prioritize.....and see our fellow Iranian fans in IRAN have got right among the issues:
1- Low Class of domestic coaching.
2-lack of having style in Iranian football.
3-being far behind,South Korea & japan, in understanding of today's football.
4-IFF,management,Governement interfirance,polectial isolation,etc.
5-lack of proffesionality.
6-Ghotbi.
The only , easy, immidiate satisfaction, choice chosen, is to gang up against a ghotbi, who has no support in IRAN, and is a good puching bag........
That was how things were prioritized in IRAN.....and thats why we keep staying behind.
It is said by some, we need to critisize, so such things would never happen again...........not noticing, this type criticisms, and prioritizing has all happened far too often ,and will happen again...........
.
It is the exact the opposite ,we need to make sure should never happen again......and that is, critising the wrong issues!
.

Halleliuah. You are preaching to the choir brother. I think you misundrestood the point of my post. To be clear, my points was people who have high standards for analyzing Ghotbi and GN (which I have no problme with and they should), should have the same standards for evaluation of other coaches (we al know who I am talking about). It seems a double standard to me.

[zzgloo]

I wish this high standards being applied to analyze Ghotbi's performance was applied to other Coaches as well. PP tehran is in 6th place with 8 losses and not a peep about its head coach!!!!!? Same haed coach was in charge of the TM. TM barely tied with UAE in UAE and lost to KSA in Tehran and none of these higly skilled analyzes was applied. So one really wonders if there is impartiality!!!!.
TM acheived a lot under Ghtobi as well, which none of them is listed under Mansoor's article. Anyways one is etitled to his/her opinion, but such a grand standing is neither fair nor can be calle objective analysis.

Ali jaan......
We remember how TM was,while waiting for Celement's snub !!!
tm was in shamble,...then Ali daei came,presented even more shamble, a team with no cohesiveness, and a team playing very elementary,predictable ,low class football.....with a lot of " Eddeaa ",and bad mouth by Daei.......
Then, IFF, with three games left,and certainty of failier to go to WC, gives in to Ghotbi's loby,the secound time, as Daei's Loby were stronger the first time.......
Ghotbi comes,after wining the championship with PP,.. starts the relaxation of tentions, and start with what he himself called " New Culture ".....no criticisms of others, being nice to media,and TM with less hashieh,and pomping self esteem,with his American charactor....and trying to create better chamistry.........All team melli players, including his later bashers, have admited to having the best atmospher ever in TM, under Ghotbi.....
he goes to two Koreas,ties and beats the South Koreans in thier own country...he did it, while the South Koreans were the better team !!,....and you and I know, the only way to beat a better team, on thier own field, you must have better coaching plan and inside info......, which proved he knew about South Korean syle........although, better coaching can only go so far,and can not be relied on to counter 35 point difference in FIFA ranking for long.
Then he advances to the secound round of Asian Cup very convinsingly, and loses to the team, every body feared for long.........and even anticipated....with one goal......( Granted ,his counter part,the South Korean coach had read his previouse plan well,...so Tm gets into trouble in the first half)........but as Rahmati said, if TM did not create many chances ,niether did South Korea.........
And at then end, he leaves TM ,in far better situation than when he recieved it from Daei, with 21 point advancement on FIFA ranking.

This was the whole stroy..........
Now, one may ask to prioritize.....and see our fellow Iranian fans in IRAN have got right among the issues:

1- Low Class of domestic coaching.
2-lack of having style in Iranian football.
3-being far behind,South Korea & japan, in understanding of today's football.
4-IFF,management,Governement interfirance,polectial isolation,etc.
5-lack of proffesionality.
6-Ghotbi.

The only , easy, immidiate satisfaction, choice chosen, is to gang up against a ghotbi, who has no support in IRAN, and is a good puching bag........
That was how things were prioritized in IRAN.....and thats why we keep staying behind.

It is said by some, we need to critisize, so such things would never happen again...........not noticing, this type criticisms, and prioritizing has all happened far too often ,and will happen again...........
.
It is the exact opposite ,we need to make sure should never happen again......and that is, critising the wrong issues!


.

[Doctor DOOM]

There are several kinds of " Ghotbi bashers "..........and frankly, Mansoor's kind, is the only kind that I respect !!...His criticisms have to do with the way IFF selected him, based on very little qualification and based on illigitimate loby.........,and he said that before all was about to happen,
And,I how ever, do not see any value in the other kinds of " Bashings ",that are based on His performance or promises,or style...............because Ghotbi's results are realy not that bad when compared with likes of Ali daei or Ghalenoee,.....and there is good answer for every and each such criticisms.
..........
There are two major issues,that No one among " critics of Ghotbi " ( This is a better word for " Ghotbi bashers"), wants to talk about.
.................................................. ...........................................
1- We have ,seriously, fallen behind South Korea and japan.
.
2-The Culture of " Eddeaa ",is scrambling to justify its faliers .
.................................................. ...........................................
.

and

I wish this high standards being applied to analyze Ghotbi's performance was applied to other Coaches as well. PP tehran is in 6th place with 8 losses and not a peep about its head coach!!!!!? Same haed coach was in charge of the TM. TM barely tied with UAE in UAE and lost to KSA in Tehran and none of these higly skilled analyzes was applied. So one really wonders if there is impartiality!!!!.
TM acheived a lot under Ghtobi as well, which none of them is listed under Mansoor's article. Anyways one is etitled to his/her opinion, but such a grand standing is neither fair nor can be calle objective analysis.

bi khial ali jan, even when ppl leave it off, you friends are not letting it go.



I really am interested to know in your opinions what specifically was added to TM by ghtbi?
it's very easy saying "he added a lot". and most probably according to bahram jan above, that would be a very valid, precise and correct observation.

but if we get into REAL issues and dissect matters and point to specifics, that suddenly becomes invalid and ...err... "unsatisfactory"? lol.
how?
based on what?

why shd I accept the comment "he added a lot" while I see a LIST of precise and real issues that point the other way?

I find it hard to change my mind when on one side I have valid examples and specific issues that point to ghtbi's incompetence as a national team coach and on the other I have a very general "opinion" that "he achieved a lot".
how is that "objective"?

maybe if you ppl enumerate all these "achievements" perhaps a neutral person can come to a more reliable conclusion.

and thankfully majid's website tracks all the game stats, especially the wins/losses of each coach. but even that is somehow "denied" and refuted!!!!



secondly, ali jan, we both know we can revisit the threads for those games you refer to (TM versus ksa and uae) and very easily your above comments can be disproven.
why? becoz some of us put aside our personal favorites (be it daei, GN or ghtbi) and put TM as the top priority. some of us dont try our best to cover and muddle things just becoz if found clear, our favorite PERSON will be found guilty or a part of the problem.
case in point shd be very apparent to you especially with whom I have had plenty of debate over daei, who has always been my favorite player.

but even my favorite iranian footballer in the history of iran did not enjoy immunity when it came to TEAM MELLI.
I, unlike many others, did not put my favorites above that of Iran and TM ... while we see plenty of ppl do so for ghtbi. so much that they are ready to put down and berate great ppl like mahdavikia just becoz they cant bear it if ghtbi is criticized!!!!
why?
why shd we sacrifice great ppl like daei or kia or ... for someone who is not worth their little toe nail, someone who hasnt done a fraction of what they have done for iranian football?
where is the fairness in that?





for example, none of you bothered to ask why didnt ghtbi come back with the team. dont tell me he had a contract. 2 days delay wouldnt have annulled it.
hell, the whole japanese team was away at the time. so it's not as if the J-league was kept waiting & stalled for mr. guradiola's twin.
and more importantly, none of you answered this simple Q: you still think he'd have run to japan without coming to iran, if we had won the trophy?
or reached the final?
or even the semis after beating his "kaf-e dast" team?
you know why? becoz even you ppl know he'd have come back. even if you dont admit it openly.

therefore it is very wrong to attack nekounam or khalatbari or X or Y for speaking up AFTER the games are done just becoz ghtbi didnt have the guts, integrity or sense of responsibility to come back with the team ... even for a day or two.... so he would answer all these players and others.

nobody put a gun to his head to "bezane be chaak".
it is easy to be around ppl when they are successful and winning and on top of the world.
but the TRUE character of an individual is revealed when they do this in HARD TIMES.
and if any one of you was fair, you'd admit ghtbi's character was nowhere near what we all thought.



we get so engrossed and entrenched in our stance against some ppl or some idea that we forget all about fairness and truth. all that matters at that time is for us to "prove the other side wrong" .... most often by any means possible!