The Search for new coach

[Ali Chicago]

In reference to a few posts earlier, someone really needs to get an anger management class and realizes he doesn't have the mere monopoly of the truth!!!!!

For the millionth time where are all these document that shows Ghotbi's Mafia? You are so lucky Iran is shir to shir and you don't get slapped with law suits mere making claims without providing supporting document (it is called slandering).

This is my last post in this thread. Life is too short for one to waste his/her time with someone who THINKS he knows everything.

[Ali Chicago]

Oh wow I see this discussion getting diverted into an extreme level, what's that word "Thugs" supposed to mean? Are we trying to deviate such simple discussion and link it with criminal cases? Thugs? Is this for real?

Keano jaan, no worries, that post wasn't aimed at you, Mansoor Khan's favor is aimed at me brother. He banned me twice before, we see if the old Persian proverb "Ta se nasheh bazi nasheh" is applicable here.

I simply posted my observation, but as you see, Mansoor otfesh shamele hale man hameesheh meesheh.

If one disagree with Mansoor, he is labled as Thugs. Get used to it brother.

I am so sad to see a person of his authority has so low level of tolerance.

[Keano]

They can continue to be the hero of some kids and thugs to take cheap shots to discredit some one when logic fails.

Oh wow I see this discussion getting diverted into an extreme level, what's that word "Thugs" supposed to mean? Are we trying to deviate such simple discussion and link it with criminal cases? Thugs? Is this for real?

[Mansoor]

Doostan, ba arze mazerat, I try to read some of these posts by certain individuals and move away from the page, often shaking my head with a bit of smile. But this one insists too often on "tohin o tohmat" that sometimes gets hard to ignore.

Aghaye aziz, why you insist that I hurt your feelings once in a while? Why do I have to go through such trivial topics and waste time and bandwidth? I ignore and you insist. Well, your persistency pays off so here you go:

a) Comparing World Cup to Asian Cup? Really? I knew I am being redundant when every time I was posting about this subject I was writing "Asian" competition, "Asian" rival, "Asian" teams, "Asian" level etc .

It had a purpose for a "very few" distinguished individuals who would have trouble seeing the difference between World class teams and competitions and Asian class teams and tournament, so needed to be reminded. But for someone to actually post in public the "the same situation" comparing them!!? .... well, that is embarrassing to say the least ... I guess we all have our limitations: "world cup" "asian cup" yekieh dige, hala yeki inja yeki oonja ... che farghi mikoneh agha ... chera oonja oono nagofti inja gofti ....

Na aziz, in case you missed it, we are no where close to be in top in "world" stage competition such as "World Cup", but we have been top four in "Asia" for the past 40 years .... Of course "I would be realistic" in world cup tournament. I am sorry if I didn't join massive day-dreaming ritual! And of course in "Asian" tournament, I would have more expectations from Iranian national team to display better football. Of course "I would be the voice of logic" in world cup, you were among many who were not and now your remind me of me being the voice logic ..... hmmmm ....

b) "exposing Karimi as the source of disharmony in the TM camp etc. etc." it was you among some, that took over 2-3 years to find out it was true or see it for themselves. I don't need to be reminded. I did my job to bring up the truth and I did.

Same I did with Ghotbi and took some time for people to see it. Frankly not my problem who and how many and for how long before believing it when I write, it is the readers' job.

I have maintained my integrity despite you and "a few" other's cheap efforts to discredit me with posts such as this but unfortunately, I could careless.

Time after time, I have shown to many to have integrity when I bring up any inside news that I see is important. Fortunately, they turn up to be true sooner or later. Frankly, those who label me with cheap shots are the least of my concern if any. They can continue to be the hero of some kids and thugs to take cheap shots to discredit some one when logic fails. I continue to maintain my integrity and bring up what "I think" is necessary for public to know ....

c) To disagree with someone in one topic and agree with him in another topic is "really interesting"? Really? I thought that is a sign of maturity ... but hey we all grow up sooner or later .... and I guess some much much later ....

[Ali Chicago]

What I am really surprised to see different approach by Mansoor. During the WC 2006 when the team didn't perform well under Branko, he was the voice of logic, being realistic, exposing Karimi as the source of disharmony in the TM camp etc. etc. At that time Paymon led the charge against Branko. Now in 2011 same situation and I see a total diffrent approach from Mansoor.

Martin on the other hand, kept the same approach then and now. I found it really interesting when Paymon and Mansoor posts agree on the same points. To the best of recollections I don't remember if it happened before.

[Doctor DOOM]

Sure, but they could also make it a 1 or 2 goal advantage with exactly the same ingredients, couldn't they?

absolutely. very correct.
on a good day for them and bad day for us they could beat us 2-0 or even 3-0
under parvin we lost 3-0 only becoz parvin refused to sub gholampour, who was surprisingly in a very poor form and was making huge mistakes again and again!
at the same time on a good day for us and a bad day for them, we could do the same and beat them 2-0 (as we have too).

what's important is to know the distance is not as far as some paint it to be. and maybe with a little better prep, tactics and players we could beat them.
but we wont know UNTIL WE TRY, at least.
if we sit back and not try, thinking: "lets not do it coz all hell's going to break loose on our arses", then what just happened will happen again!

this shd answer your point below.
we wont know unless WE TRY.

And I also don't think a more offensive minded approach would certainly improve performance and result. I don't get what's wrong with defense. There are successful defensive lineups and tactics such as there are successful offensive lineups and tactics.

nothing wrong with defense. as long as it's not a tournament.
in a tournament, especially in the knock-out stages, the team that scores one goal more than the other goes through.
the one that stays behind and defends ... lets say with magnificent defenders and marvelous defensive strategies and ( which we clearly dont have and have never had), still goes nowhere UNTIL IT TRIES TO SCORE A GOAL.

all those successful defensive X and Y and ...... is for teams like Italy. whom not only have great and RELIABLE defenders (we dont) but also great and reliable defensive tactics (we dont) ... becoz that's the NATURE of their football.

ours is NOT like that. so why compare ourselves with them?
you dont fly. why compare yourself with a bird?






you know what?
it is all RAHMATI's fault.
your ( and many others') skewed view that our defense is great or reliable. that's all rahmati's fault.
becoz he has been saving our defensive blushes game after game for more than 3 years (or more) now. I'm astounded how you ppl repeat the same WRONG CONCLUSIONS every few weeks (for the past 3-4 years)!! astounded and quite disappointed.
coz many of us have talked about this on COUNTLESS occasions.
it seems nobody reads or heeds them.

the defense that allows 3-4 one-on-ones in each game, with its keeper is a pretty crummy defense
the defense that still has marking problems is a poor defense
the defense that on set pieces end up leaving at least 2 opponents free is a weak defense
the defense that allows B and C grade opponents to penetrate through them and cause havoc in the box is not a reliable one
if the opponent hits the bar, it means you havent defended well
if your keeper has to make 100% saves, it means your defenders are not doing well
if ....... etc etc etc

but what pulls the wool over some of us is that in the end, RAHMATI makes massive saves and compensates for our weak defenders or weak defensive strategies.
and by the time the game is over (or if we're lucky, a day later), 90% of us forget this crucial fact and immediately start to praise the defense!!!!!!!!! where's haji to remind THEM of taking momentary snapshot?

IF we are fair ... let me repeat this, IF we are fair, we'd agree about half of the games we've played in the past 3-4 years which we have won or drawn WITHOUT RAHMATI would have been losses
for example, we SHD HAVE lost to uae (in uae) by at least 4 goals ... yet we drew.

that is IF we are fair.

[zzgloo]

I am largely in agreement with Martin....except the part " The gap is not so big "........
Japan And south Korea,have been our fellow Asians, and we ,better than most,have witnessed thier progress.......,what we see in South Korea and Japan, is way different than what we saw just 10 years ago.....
...they have incorporated thier industrial managing culture into thier football managements....
Thier organized league,and influence of team work, and adoptation of ( Spain like ) High percentage passing game........is not something one single new TM coach could change,or make up for............
The South Korean coach said : " Iranians are niether playing Asian Football, nor European Football, they need to make up thier mind ".......
IMHO, Our Football has reached a saturation point...we can no longer advance, any higher than today,..which is only being better than Arab football...............our football need a methamorphosis....it needs to adopt a style.....and than can only be done with a league,and that will take a decade or so, with a new line of club coaching and management.......as our crop of domestic league coachings,are way elementary and obsolete....
Hiring likes of "Vahid Hashemian ", as a domestic league coach, is a small start, in right direction.


PS,..... به نظر می رسد با این شرایط فوتبال ملی ما به این سادگی نمی تواند از بحران نتیجه گیری خارج شود؟

- بله این وضعیت نگران کننده است. متاسفانه فوتبال ما کیفیت لازم را ندارد . شما ببینید بازیکنان ما در لیگ بیشتر از 8-7 کیلومتر نمی دوند در حالیکه این استاندارد در دنیا 15-14 کیلومتر است و این نشان می دهد که ما چقدر با فوتبال روز دنیا فاصله داریم. در همین تیم ملی زمانی که قطبی یک مقدار فشار تمرینات بدنسازی را زیاد می کرد بازیکنان اعتراض می کردند و نگران بودند که مصدوم نشوند


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[Martin-Reza]

^ There is much room for the other side of the story again. DPR only conceded 2 goals either, unlike eg. India. And you could argue they failed to score because they were paired up with strong teams.

Also the reason why no team from our group qualifed for semis was because the neighbouring group had 2 of Asia's absolute top teams. There is little doubt that had we been group B instead of group D, we would have had at least one, and likely even two teams in semis.

and to continue the same thread, I totally agree with the 0.5 goal difference with korea, I think we're just 1 goal behind japan.
and even less than 0.5 from aussies.

now, my question is why shdnt we think we can overcome that 0.5 or even the 1 goal difference with a little diligence and good game reading, good selection and good tactics during a game?

Sure, but they could also make it a 1 or 2 goal advantage with exactly the same ingredients, couldn't they?

And I also don't think a more offensive minded approach would certainly improve performance and result. I don't get what's wrong with defense. There are successful defensive lineups and tactics such as there are successful offensive lineups and tactics.

[Mansoor]

Not that matters to me much but since you show more interest in numbers and what is in the paper and the wins in group stage, I'll give you some numbers about our group:

UAE and North Korea did not score a single goal in this Asian Cup.

In fact they were the only two teams in this tournament that failed to score a single goal, even against each other.

Even India did.

Also, Iran's group was the only group that did not have any rep in semis of the Asian Cup.

And, last, take a second look at Iran's goals against Iraq. Lucky bounces or coaches' tactic?

Win still a win, and I always respect that, but to magnify the wins in group stage games in an Asian competition as success? I wouldn't. Especially when I actually watch the games, and how we played football in the first two games .... Korea disaster was in the making during those two matches ...

[Doctor DOOM]

1) Yes

2) I'd say 0.5 goals is the difference, and that mainly because of the heads, and not of the legs .

thank you.
and agree too.

now with only 0.5 goals the difference between us and them, arent those who expected a less defensive team and tactics (compared to the frightened line up and strategy chosen by ghtbi) justified in their severe disappointment?

wouldnt they have a reason for not accepting the surrender and defeat so MEEKLY and TIMIDLY as ghtbi did?


dosnt that 0.5 goal mean perhaps with a little tweek here and a little luck there, either side can come away with victory?
(but luck is for those who take a chance. and parking the bus in your 18 is not taking a chance)

doesnt that mean if we showed a little spine by replacing the utterly frightened and defensive line up with 2 creative and offensive minded (to at least approach a balanced team - 6 defensive and 5 offensive ... instead of 8 defensive and 3 "supposed" offensive one), maybe we'd have had a decent chance to win the game (like 40% vs. korea's 60% ... or even better)?





and to continue the same thread, I totally agree with the 0.5 goal difference with korea, I think we're just 1 goal behind japan.
and even less than 0.5 from aussies.

now, my question is why shdnt we think we can overcome that 0.5 or even the 1 goal difference with a little diligence and good game reading, good selection and good tactics during a game?

[Martin-Reza]

^ I agree on what you said. It's correct, but incomplete. There's another side to this story. We had a devastated team that had failed in WCQ, he took it to AC (ok, not a big deal) and had a perfect group stage in a surely not easy group there and a respectable result (though not respectable performance) in quarterfinals. He stopped the falldown and made a statement about Iranian football with wins over the defending champions, a WC participant and a team we repeatedly had problems against.

I don't have to explain to you that it could have been easily worse than that which might have triggered a negative development of Iranian football with turmoil similar to what happened after WC 2006.

So in that regard his spell was even a success. Overall, it was simply average.

[Mansoor]

That is why I said excellent posts to couple of posts in this thread because it gets the discussion to the root of the problem, and sometimes give answer to own questions, discussions, and disagreements. Check a few quotes here afterward:

However, as said the gap is not so big and someone like Queiroz could help closing it.

exactly, and Ghotbi could not. A team like this with "raw" talent is one good coach away from competing against teams as such, as mentioned earlier. A good coach can get a good pool of talent with great potentials and compete against any "Asian teams" as Iran has done it in the past three decades.

It was within Ghotbi himself that Iran played so scared against Korea. A "good" coach would have done what you predict someone like Queiroz would do. That is the whole argument. I could careless about some vatani coaches in the past or present that would do better or worse than Ghotbi. Ghotbi should be viewed as absolute value not relative to some other non-qualified coach for national team.

Those things might get us closer to the leading Asian teams again and if we can qualify for WC and do ok there, this could be an impule for a very positive development with more transfers to Europe, more interest and investment in Iranian football resulting in more success etc.

and that is why Ghotbi is considered "failure" as he "failed" to trigger this.

What actually differed Ghotbi from other coaches was that he was bigmouthed and talked as if he was a coach who could make a team "overperform".

exactly my objection from day one. A case of "exaggeration". He was not what him or his media portrait him to be....

[Kavian]

I have a solution for our coaching problem which not only can address the short term issues, but can potentially benefit our football in general.

Knowing that our culture (football, politics, life, everything else) is just not made for tolerating authority and respecting the person in charge and the obsession it has to either worship or assassinate characters, we should refrain from giving individuals the authority and should do everything as a group (committee, Anjomani).

Anyway the idea is this. Instead of giving the fate of our team in the hands of a single person and realize later that those hands were not as capable or the circumstances surrounding were overwhelming or whatever else, a committee should be established to take over the coaching of our various national teams. This is not to say that we won’t have a head coach, but rather to make the coaching more of a collective approach, than these one offs and disappointments after disappointments.

The committee will be in charge of basic coaching and will provide some level of consistency and accountability for the management of the teams. The committee will have as its members, a select number of local coaches (to ensure voices of our football community is properly heard and reflected), as well as number of football experts and analysts to provide views on tactics and strategies. The membership would of course be based on some criteria to encourage improvement and quality among coaches and experts on the committee. This can hopefully shut up Mayeli!! :-)

The committee operates on a regular basis to review TM performances, identify and address problems, establish standards, make recommendations to leagues for improvement, set some kind of a style or theme for our football, holds regular training sessions for TMs, identify talent, establish some standards for player eligibility to be on the national teams. The 50 man roster of our national teams would be a live list at all times and decided by the committee and not decided just before a tournament. When a head coach is selected by the committee, he is given a foundation to work with and don’t have to start from scratch. The head coach reports to the committee and has to defend his 23 man selection, tactics, strategy, etc. etc.

Anyway, I can write a book on how the committee would operate and benefit our football… just don’t have the time, but I hope you get my point.

Comments?

[Martin-Reza]

1) Yes

2) I'd say 0.5 goals is the difference, and that mainly because of the heads, and not of the legs .

[Doctor DOOM]

I don't certainly expect TM to lose against those teams, just as I can never certainly expect that we beat Kuwait or DPR Korea. That's football. There are many factors and the better side doesn't always win. But often.



And when the difference in quality is minimal, there is some chance things might go the other way.

1- are you sure it is YOU who just said that (red)?


2- (blue) - and what is the difference between Iran and south korea?
remember I am not asking about the difference in facilities, money, ... etc etc.
it's 11 koreans vs. 11 iranians.
they all have 2 legs, 2 hands, 1 head.
and even factoring in the koreans extra exposure to top quality football, than ours.

in the past 40-50 years since we've been playing them and since we have equal # of wins each, it proves they are not from Mars. they're just as human as us. so are as much fallible and mistake prone as us.

so what is the difference between them and us in terms of goals (for easy measurement), in your opinion?
one goal?
two goals?
5 goals?


****************

I'd like to hear ali's and bahram's and adesy's and .... answers to the previous post's questions (in red bold) too.
why do they watch TM games?
and do they switch off when we play .... ?