What next for the UAE game?

[gol_kuchik]

Bahram Jan, Rahman adds nothing to our already weak defense. TM needs
to have 2 things in mind, when selecting any player for any position:

1-How will this player help TM immediately (for the next game).
2-How will this player help in the long run (Say if we qualify).

Let's see how Rahman can help these goals, or can he?

Rahman has not been playing with any team for a while.
Our problem in defense has a lot to do with players being out of sync
and not doing an effective team defense. Can a rusty player help?

So the answer to the short term goal is a no. Even for Karimi it took
at least 3-4 games to get back into it.

In the long term, looking at 2010 WC, do we want Rezai who has consistently
choked under pressure? Remember the slapping in Asia cup 2002? The huge
mistakes both at WC and in Asian cup 2007?

Simply put, why isn't he even with a team, this long into season?

As for UAE, if I were Ali Daei, I would try to use the same group that beat
them in UAE and try to minimize the usage of legionaries.

Every game the youngsters get under their belt would be huge for 2010, and
even later where we have 3 games in 3 weeks with high chance of injury or
yellow card mounting for starters.

From this view, I would not even want Bagheri in long run. He could help
in this game possibly, but realistically anyone thinks a 42 years old can
make impact in WC? Also, in what respect is this UAE team any better than the
last 2 we beat to qualify? Heck if it weren't for us beating Syria by 2 goals
UAE would not even be here.

Daei must trust the same young people who brought him this far at least
for UAE game.

Luckily for us, even a draw will not hurt us on Wed. All we have to do is to
pull a Bonacic on UAE (at lest for the first 70). Try to control the middle
and back with 8-9 players and let someone like Borhani/Rezai run loose up front.

We'll score 3-4 against them with a grinding/pressing first 70 and then
all out attack the last 30.

But we really don't need old timers in this game nor even legionaries who just
played today and may not be 100% by Wed. I hope if Daei decides to use
them, he use them as subs and not for the entire 90 minutes.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ you are correct.
I think in absence of a playmaker in daei's selection, we will see bagheri start in front of nekounam with most probably kia on the right and madanchi on the left.

nekounam's latest game in osasuna and seeing some great passing off him gives me some hope that if nekounam can repeat this performance, we may get to see some good distribution and feeding ( not as many as a true playmaker though ) to the attacking players in front of him; bagheri, and hopefully the two strikers.

[IranJavidan]

I'm not saying bagheri is not a great player or isnt in form or .... .
I also believe he's a magnificent player and probably in our all time top 5 best players list.

all I'm saying is while he's a good attacking mid, he isnt a good ball distributor ( to me that is a "playmaker" ) who can control the pace and direction of the game, who can pass through a wall or crowd of players, who sees runners & runs when many others dont until the run has started ( in other words, vision), who ... CONSTANTLY AND WITH HIGH FREQUENCY.

all players once in a while do give such passes or see runs or create chances .... . but the difference between these players and a playmaker is the FREQUENCY of the moves and quality of it.
we need a player who is capable of constantly giving off such passes and moves. not once or twice in a game.
( I had the same argument about KIA and daei's choices for his post. KIA is capable of doing what he does more frequently and better than all those who've been tried on the right midfield )

that's why as a playmaker, I rate guys like navidkia, jabbari, mobaali and karimi much higher than ppl like shojaei, bagheri, nouri, kolahkaj, ... .

Ok, then I guess it's a matter of taste here. I too think that an ideal AM has vision, and should be a great playmaker. But that's in a world were everything's perfect. Since we dont have karimi nor jabbari (playmakers), I think it's a great opportunity for Karim. He might not distribute the ball exactly the same way you describe above, but he's got great qualities that in my opinion, are more important than ball distribution alone.
I'm not saying I would start him over Karimi or Jabbari, but in these circumstances, he's the most viable solution.

[Doctor DOOM]

So we would definitely see Bagheri starting, since Daei explicitly said that he won't invite him unless he'll start. In Perspolis' games this season, we've seen the best of Karim Bagheri. Even before Karimi joined Perspolis, Bagheri was on fire DR. jan. So I don't see why we can't trust him with the AM position?

I'm not saying bagheri is not a great player or isnt in form or .... .
I also believe he's a magnificent player and probably in our all time top 5 best players list.

all I'm saying is while he's a good attacking mid, he isnt a good ball distributor ( to me that is a "playmaker" ) who can control the pace and direction of the game, who can pass through a wall or crowd of players, who sees runners & runs when many others dont until the run has started ( in other words, vision), who ... CONSTANTLY AND WITH HIGH FREQUENCY.

all players once in a while do give such passes or see runs or create chances .... . but the difference between these players and a playmaker is the FREQUENCY of the moves and quality of it.
we need a player who is capable of constantly giving off such passes and moves. not once or twice in a game.
( I had the same argument about KIA and daei's choices for his post. KIA is capable of doing what he does more frequently and better than all those who've been tried on the right midfield )

that's why as a playmaker, I rate guys like navidkia, jabbari, mobaali and karimi much higher than ppl like shojaei, bagheri, nouri, kolahkaj, ... .

[Ali Chicago]

Ali e Aziz..................
I also, am not confident with the ability of TM under Daei......and I agree with you, as the new generation is not as " ripe ", as we expect them to be !
yet..............I believe, even Daei coached TM can take care of UAE.....
The fact that this is thier last chance does not make them any more dangerouse.......as they wanted to beat us badly before as well....and currant situation will not make them any more powerful.....
keep in mind, those who called me and you, Daei bashers !, believe daei is good enough to win games even in the WC !!,...so,to them UAE is a piece of cake for Daei...................
If We want to be scared playing, a coachless UAE, the 12 th ranked team in Asia............we should never support Daei !

Bahram Jaan;

It is not matter of what you or I or x or Y think. Regardless of what I am being called "hater, basher, etc." there is a reality out there and my concerns are based on what I am watching when the TM plays.

All three games (KSA, N. Korea, Qatar), team didnt' play well and this time we have a whole bunch of injuries too.

If you notice, we barley beat UAE in the last round by Zandi's goal and then defended like for 70 minutes.

One more thing, Football isnt' like MLB or NBA final that is 7 games and best team wins best of 7. It is one game, in one game anything can happen. It all happens in 90 minutes based on the skills and emotional and mental state of the players on the pitch. We are past those days when the difference in quality between the footballing countries was day and night. Remember Iran beat Maldive 17-0 in WC98 qualification. I beleive in Wc2006 qualification, Maldive beat S.Korea or tied them at their home game if I am not mistaken. There are no Akhoonds in S.Korea and no Islam and one of the most thriving capitalist system in S.Korea at present, yet Maldive tied them or beat them once. I think the old days of football is over, even a little Island like Andora gives trouble to gods of football like England, Greece wins the EUFA and Italy, Holland don't make it to the quarter final of EUFA cup this year.

Finally, we Iranian ( I know it is stereotyping) are emotional folks. We do great at times when we have to come from behind, but otherwise at key times, we choke under pressure (remember Bahrain game in WC 2002, compared when we fell behind 2-0 against Australia).

All in all I am worried, I hope my worry isn't justified by the end of the day next Wed.

[zzgloo]

Bahram Jaan;
Hate to be the party pooper here, but I think we will have a hard time. UAE lost three games and this is a do or die for them. Add to that, an aging and declining TM :
No new stars really (Where Gholamreza Rezai who is not a true forward or due to his physical abilities is the most consistant player in the TM).
still we count on Karimi, Kia and heck even had to call Bagheri back
VH, Nekoo's performance still is relatively among the best in our TM, yet even their performance is declining in general
Pourous defense system
All in all sooner or later catch up with us. I am not as optimist and positive toward the future of the TM in general and UAE game in particular as you are. Hope I am wrong.
In order to not start another pro, anti Daie argument, I dont' think this whole thing is all on Daie. His inexperience and management has a role for sure, but TM problems is far beyond the coaching issue. The next generation of the TM stars to replace likes of Kia, Karimi, Bagheri, Abedzadeh (i.e. Kazemian, Mobali, Shojai, Enayatyi, Khatibi, Noori, Sayed Jalal Hosseini, etc. etc.) never became what they had to become. It will be a long discussion on why, but regardless it never happened.
Again, I hope I am just wrong.

Ali e Aziz..................
I also, am not confident with the ability of TM under Daei......and I agree with you, as the new generation is not as " ripe ", as we expect them to be !
yet..............I believe, even Daei coached TM can take care of UAE.....
The fact that this is thier last chance does not make them any more dangerouse.......as they wanted to beat us badly before as well....and currant situation will not make them any more powerful.....
keep in mind, those who called me and you, Daei bashers !, believe daei is good enough to win games even in the WC !!,...so,to them UAE is a piece of cake for Daei...................
If We want to be scared playing, a coachless UAE, the 12 th ranked team in Asia............we should never support Daei !

[IranJavidan]

Agha Bahram and Peyman, it's a joy to be able to read your discussions on the F+ forum.

We could use this:
---------------Rahmati--------------------
--Kaebi----Hosseini---FIT CB------Zare-- <--(Daei will play him, not me lol)
------------Nekounam---------------------
--------------------Bagheri----------------
--Mahdavikia-----------------Madanchi/Nikbakht/Hajsafi/Gh.Rezaei
---------------Shojaei--------------------
---------------Hashemian/S.Salehi--------

Now, ideally, Rezaei is good in a SS position. But since we'll be defending especially in the first half, I don't see why he can't join the offensive lineon counter attacks, while we have two DMs to cover up for him (since we know that Zare will be in lala land ).

Or, another alternative can be:

----------------Rahmati-----------------
-Kaebi-------Hosseini-----?---------Zare-
---------------Nekounam----------------
--Mahdavikia----------------Madanchi/Hajsafi
----------------Shojaei------------------
---------Rezaei--------------------------
---------------------Nikbakht------------

In this lineup, we have basically agreed to bench Hashemian and Bagheri. But because of cultural issues, an undesirable result will lead to all of Iran blaming Daei for not playing them.

So we would definitely see Bagheri starting, since Daei explicitly said that he won't invite him unless he'll start. In Perspolis' games this season, we've seen the best of Karim Bagheri. Even before Karimi joined Perspolis, Bagheri was on fire DR. jan. So I don't see why we can't trust him with the AM position? The only difference I saw in Bagheri's game after Karimi came was that he became more free to be everywhere on the field, and support the attacking line from areas other than behind the strikers. Even in terms of distribution, I think Bagheri has a lot of talent. If you look at the games that Perspolis won, you would see Karim's mark left all over them. He achieved that mostly with his long passes, and accurate centers, IF he didn't shoot and score himself.

And that's where his upper hand is shown compared to Shojaei and even Karimi. Bagheri never hesitates to shoot from anywhere as long as he has a decent angle. He delivers with both left and right, and as rightly pointed out by Agha Bahram, he's got the best shot in Iran hands down. So yes, he might not dribble everyone like Masoud and to a lesser extent Karimi, but he shoots the ball instead. If he can't shoot, he'll attempt a nice pass. If it's not and offensive pass, he'll pass back. But Masoud would take the ball, start running, attempt to dribble his way up, and throw in a deadly pass for the strikers so they can just tap the ball in. Two completely different styles of play here. In Bagheri's game, he either creates a deadly attack, by shooting and encouraging strikers to be present in the opponent's penalty area for rebounds, or he puts himself in superb goal-scoring opportunities. Masoud on the other hand, prefers to solely create those goal-scoring opportunities, and sit back and watch. How many goals has he scored for TM lately? What about in his club where he's a STRIKER most of the times? I'm not criticizing him, I love Masoud's game, but just because his ground passes are better than Bagheri's, I don't think it'd be fair to say that his ball distribution is also better. And since Bagheri has been more convincing this season, I'd have no problems seeing him start this game as the AM, and make adjustments in the second half, IF NEEDED.

Finally, since Shojaei had an impressive performance against Saudi on the flank, it wouldn't be the end of the world if he plays in that position again.

---------------------Rahmati------------------------
--Kaebi-------Hosseini-------*******---------Zare--
--------------------Nekounam------------------------
--Mahdavikia---------------------------------Shojaei--
--------------------Bagheri---------------------------
--------------Rezaei----------------------------------
--------------------Hashemian/S.Salehi/Nikbakht------

I'd also like to comment on what you said Agha Peyman regarding the headache Daei now has for player selection. It's EXTREMELY difficult to select 4 or 5 players from this list (GIVEN WE HAVE NO INJURIES AND NO FIGHTS B/W PLAYERS AND STAFF):

-Jabbari
-Zandi
-Madanchi
-Kazemian
-Hajsafi
-Karimi
-Bagheri
-Teymourian
-***Mahdavikia***
-***Nekounam***
-Shojaei
-Nikbakht

Okay, so we all know that our DM is Nekounam, and RM is Mahdavikia, that only leaves us with 2 or 3 more midfielders!!!

Too tough, eh?

[zzgloo]

Bahram jan, I have no doubt that bagheri is an excellent player with many great qualities such as you mentioned.

My point, though, was different.
while his shooting, heading and leadership and ... are great, unfortunately I dont see his "BALL DISTRIBUTION" on par with those. That's why I said imo he isnt a good "playmaker". Those other attributes make him a very good attacking midfielder ( which he's being used at pp to such accolade )

but if you notice, even at PP, where he's excelling ( hence his call up ), he HAS a playmaker playing alongside him, who distributes the ball well and creates opportunities for everyone ( karimi ).

That's my argument.
With Bagheri we get an excellent attacking mid, but NOT a playmaker. and imo ANY team that wants to be successful and wants the points of a game OUGHT TO have a playmaker to create those opportunities to score and get the points. without one, the team will be unimaginative & incapable of creativity. that's what we've seen on many occasions where the team plays like a headless chicken, with players running all over the field but are not in concert, and we show chaotic movement with nobody in control of the team's moves !!


.... unless we want to leave everything to "ghaza va ghadar" and luck , individualistic moves or opponents' mistakes ( as seen on countless games) !!

the difference is one has the choice of pursuing their goal passively ( luck, individualistic ... ) or actively ( using creative players whose purpose on the pitch IS creating and playmaking ).
neither guarantee success. But the chances of the latter is far more than the former.

payman e aziz.......thanks for your post...and it is more clear for me what you had in mind.......
Indeed, we once differed in the defenition of a " playmaker "...as it seems to me, you call a play maker : " some one who makes chances of play for others ".................
My defenition how ever, is " Some one you can always count on, and some one who makes things happen when others could n't ....a go to guy ! "

And as far as Bagheri..........I do not see shojaee to distribute any better than Bagheri....Shojaee is a selfish midfielder.and bagheri is a team player.

[Martin-Reza]

Generally I must say this game together with the one in Pyongyang will be the most dangerous for us.

Traditionally we mess up against the group's underdogs on their homesoil. I don't know if it's problems with dominating a game and being effective against a defensive side without a full Azadi or underrating the opposition and not being forced to run like crazy by tenthousands of Iranian fans.

Saudis already won there, so we can't give away 2 or even 3 points.

If we win that one I will be very confident to see a straight Iranian qualification.

As for tactics, I think the most important thing will be patience and avoiding to expose ourselves to their counter attacks, which is the only thing they can actually do. I don't mind having a 0-0 until minute 80 or so. Their stamina will go down and sooner or later we will score, probably from a setpiece.

As for Daei, I am not concerned about his experience. He experienced dozens games of this kind in national team and dozens more in his club teams. He knows exactly what's expecting the team and what he has to tell the boys.

[Doctor DOOM]

Ali is right on the transition of power down the generations.
many of those stars coming after kia-karimi-VH-bagheri generation were stifled and ignored for quite a few years now.
some of them got their dues, but some never did coz they didnt enjoy the "trust of the coach in them". and branko's at fault here.

those that did benefit from the trust are nekunam, nosrati, rahmati, ...
while many others like kazemian, mobaali, Lotfi, Bayatinya, Akbari, rezaei ( he got it from daei though ), ... generally the Busan team, now aged around 25-27, didnt!

that's why we have a TM that's crowded by two separate generations bagheri, kia, VH, .... ( of above 29-30 yrs age ) and the brand new ones ; gholamnejad, khalatbari, rafkhahi, hajsafi, shojaei, .... ( of below age 24 ) with hardly anyone from the middle generation except nekounam and rahmati ( the busan team ) !

we shd not be relying too much on the oldest generation , so much that with kia's absence we'd have a crippled right flank or with VH absence, a misfiring forward line !
Had the transition been smooth, we'd have seen a gradual change of roster from the old to young about 3years back to find the nkounam's generation become the pillars of TM ( not kia or karimi or bagheri or VH ).

========================

as for daei not at fault for his inexperience, I totally agree.
we cant blame him here.
we shd, in fact, blame the IFF for not providing proper support structure for this young coach.
his bench isnt all that heavy weight and experienced. and this fellow, Rottemuller is really taking his time to join.

and all the while, we're going through qualifiers one after another !
when is he joining anyway?
if he's not coming, then get someone else.

I'm sure daei would acknowledge the need for an experienced person on his bench. both him and human are just too young and inexperienced , especially for INTERNATIONAL ARENA for us to remain calm and relaxed.

who's at fault here?

[Ali Chicago]

...
....
2-UAE is nothing to worry about, or at least it should n't be.
..........

Bahram Jaan;

Hate to be the party pooper here, but I think we will have a hard time. UAE lost three games and this is a do or die for them. Add to that, an aging and declining TM :
No new stars really (Where Gholamreza Rezai who is not a true forward or due to his physical abilities is the most consistant player in the TM).
still we count on Karimi, Kia and heck even had to call Bagheri back
VH, Nekoo's performance still is relatively among the best in our TM, yet even their performance is declining in general
Pourous defense system


All in all sooner or later catch up with us. I am not as optimist and positive toward the future of the TM in general and UAE game in particular as you are. Hope I am wrong.


In order to not start another pro, anti Daie argument, I dont' think this whole thing is all on Daie. His inexperience and management has a role for sure, but TM problems is far beyond the coaching issue. The next generation of the TM stars to replace likes of Kia, Karimi, Bagheri, Abedzadeh (i.e. Kazemian, Mobali, Shojai, Enayatyi, Khatibi, Noori, Sayed Jalal Hosseini, etc. etc.) never became what they had to become. It will be a long discussion on why, but regardless it never happened.

Again, I hope I am just wrong.

[Doctor DOOM]

Bahram jan, I have no doubt that bagheri is an excellent player with many great qualities such as you mentioned.

My point, though, was different.
while his shooting, heading and leadership and ... are great, unfortunately I dont see his "BALL DISTRIBUTION" on par with those. That's why I said imo he isnt a good "playmaker". Those other attributes make him a very good attacking midfielder ( which he's being used at pp to such accolade )

but if you notice, even at PP, where he's excelling ( hence his call up ), he HAS a playmaker playing alongside him, who distributes the ball well and creates opportunities for everyone ( karimi ).

That's my argument.
With Bagheri we get an excellent attacking mid, but NOT a playmaker. and imo ANY team that wants to be successful and wants the points of a game OUGHT TO have a playmaker to create those opportunities to score and get the points. without one, the team will be unimaginative & incapable of creativity. that's what we've seen on many occasions where the team plays like a headless chicken, with players running all over the field but are not in concert, and we show chaotic movement with nobody in control of the team's moves !!


.... unless we want to leave everything to "ghaza va ghadar" and luck , individualistic moves or opponents' mistakes ( as seen on countless games) !!

the difference is one has the choice of pursuing their goal passively ( luck, individualistic ... ) or actively ( using creative players whose purpose on the pitch IS creating and playmaking ).
neither guarantee success. But the chances of the latter is far more than the former.

[zzgloo]

payman jaan.....
Your whole argument is based on an assumption, I do not see as valid !!( IMHO ), but other than that, the rest of the argument is correct .
I remember , when we looked for MVP of perspolice last year, I voted for Bagheri,and I recall you voted for Khalili........., so, both of us, are atleast consistant with our opinions !!
I hate to admit , as I am a SS fan...but

1-Bagheri ended up as the PP's MVP.
2-there is no one in TM who has as strong long shots toward the opponant's goal, better than Bagheri.
3-Bagheri , is a take-charge kind of player, just like how Daei used to be.
4-He is the best 34 year old Iranian player I know .and has lost less of a step than Kia,or vahid.( daei initialy said it is too late for him, but Bagheri made him change his opinion by his readiness..so much, almost all fans wanted him on TM.....unlike Rahman )
5-He is a total package !, Good decision, Tall, good heading, Long shots,strong kicks, great offensive passes, Defensive help,talent to be at the right place at the right time, captain minded,confident ,experinced, solid player.......
.................................................
I am yet to be sold on Shjaee as much, and I refuse to elevate his stock,because Osasuna chose him,or because he is tall.......he is yet to pay his dues, and just not as polished as Bagheri yet.
..........................................
You are correct,that we need to put some distance between us and the rest....and we need to win convinsingly the games we should win....such as UAE...............................Bagheri will bring authurity ,consistancy for the currant depleted TM .and players will draw positive energy from him.

[Doctor DOOM]

bagheri even at best form, is NOT a playmaker.
so while he may provide an option for an attacking mid, the team still lacks a playmaker.

but I'm afraid we'll see bagheri start for shojaie's post.
unless daei tries to twist the team beyond logic and leaves kia out and plays shojaei on the right, just to make way for bagheri !
or even worse: he plays bagheri on the left instead of either hajsafi/madanchi ! LOL

let me add ... just in case: I dont think using a single striker ( who could be VH or rezaei )with the 34 yr old bagheri playing as the pseudo-striker would be benefitial either. that reduces our potency. we need to put some distance between ourselves and other teams , especially when ksa and korea will be playing against each other and hopefully one or both will drop points. so we also face a must-win situation.

in summery, I must say adding bagheri to the line up has been and will be like asking for a head ache

I feel sorry for daei on this matter. this is a very confounding matter for any coach.
- coz in Iran, you cant call up a senior player like bagheri and seat him on the bench.
- neither can you make VH sit on it. But we need rezaei's pace up front as well.
- logic also says a team needs a "playmaker" and bagheri isnt one.
- using bagheri instead of nekounam ( as the sole def mid ) also isnt going to turn out well.
- but switching back to 4-2-3-1 ( neku-bagheri as 2 def-mids , w rezaei behind VH - meaning NO PLAYMAKER again !! ) from 4-4-2 , which you've been successful so far, would be a bad idea also. and anyway, you didnt call karim becoz he was playing as a def-mid. it was becoz he was an attacking mid .
LOL.

something has got to give.
and I dont want to be in daei's shoes to decide what/who shd be sacrificed for what/whom.


and that makes the possibilities endless.
we could easily see a 4-4-2 formation, just as easily as a 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-3-2 or even a 5-4-1 or .... etc.
hehehehe...
it'll be interesting.



( - remove bagheri from the equation, and things will fall/settle into a nice, comfortable 4-4-2.
but then, you'll have to answer for your decision to call karim up and make such noise about it !!!
ouch !
LOL
confusion-city, here we come
)

[zzgloo]

payman jaan...............
I agree that Rahman may be out of shape......but then again,he may not....and I am not sure,him not being invited is about him not being in shape.......for some one being so long in Europe and only away for 5 mounths, should not be much hard to get back in shape...and I understand he was in good enough shape for "Saba " to want to sign him.
You also may be right about Nosrati........
so here are choices.
1- Rahman...out of shape.
2-Nosrati ...out of shape.
3-Ghorbani....No experince.
4-Bangar........................may be the choice ???

I guess , if we would see them work on the training camp, we can judge better.as for an attack minded UAE, we may need experince the most at our central defense.

Bagheri is a play maker....I disagree with you on that one.

You are again right, as UAE, has nothing to lose, and feels no pressure..and does have a good offense.......,It would be very " Ugly " for us, if we lose this game.