What do you prefer? [Old Thread Revisited]

[Martin-Reza]

I know this is an old thread, but I found this in an Eintracht Frankfurt Blog about Mahdavikia's most recent performance (kicker grade 5, which means bad) which fits to this topic:

http://www.fr-online.de/top_news/1679482_Der-kleine-Befreiungsschlag.html

Translation:

Martin Fenin was sent to the left wing and Mehdi Mahdavikia seemingly forbidden to play a single pass forward.

Although I think he is underrated (I saw most of the game), as he is one of the few with good technique and overview and barely ever causes turnovers while the others lose a lot of balls, I again must agree he is barely taking any risks anymore. He seems to have lost his speed and therefore barely ever goes for solo runs, and his passes, almost without exceptions, are squareballs or backpasses.

[Martin-Reza]

^ Very good analysis, I totally agree. I also expected Daei to bring a defensive midfielder for the more and more invisible Jabbari, but I think his plan to remain in control was correct, although it didn't really work out.

[Mr.Good]

I noticed that also, that was risky, and I think this was one of the reasons Nekounam did not seems to be playing good.
Jabbari also did not help much in defense. and that had a big toll on Nekounam.
when I was watching the game live I was thinking why Jabbari got subbed and not Shojaei (since he was not playing that well also), but then when I watched the second time I noticed that Jabbari was barley involved in the game after our second goal. he seems not to have good fitness.
I was also expecting another central midfielder or defensive midfielder after our second goal, but then Zandi came in. I think Daei wanted to maintain possession rather than destroying opponents game. I think that was risky also. since many of our players could not keep the same fast tempo of the first half.

I don't think Daei will take the same risk against UAE. UAE has few players that are technically gifted and can run circles around our defense. They also have the finishing ability.

[Martin-Reza]

3)
----------------------Rahmati--------------------
Gholamnejad--Hosseini---Aghili-----------Zare
---------------------Nekounam------------------
Shojaei--------------Jabbari-----------Madanchi
---------------Khatibi-----Hashemian------------


If we look at the selected players and the lineups used against Paykan it might well be we will start with a similar system to 3) against Korea DPR, which would be very risky.

Interestingly Daei really took the risk and started with a system were similar to this.

----------------------Rahmati--------------------
Kaebi-----------Hosseini---Aghili-----------Zare
---------------------Nekounam------------------
Mahdavikia----------Jabbari-------------Shojaei
------------------Rezaei---------------------------
------------------------Hashemian----------------

I wonder if he will take similar risks in UAE or will add a second DM/CM to Nekounam, which he surely will do for the homegames against Korea Rep. and KSA.

Generally I want to add that this system shouldn't be confused with the 4-4-2 diamond. Other than in the diamond-midfield the four midfielders in the 4-1-3-2 are arranged in a way that there is width thanks to two real wingers in addition to a central offensive midfielder, on the cost of much space in the crucial area in front of the centerhalves as the sole DM has neither support from a second DM nor by two CMs as in the diamond.

I, however, noticed that the two wingers tried to defend a bit like the two CMs in a diamond, but since they are no central players there was still too much space in center, also considering Jabbari did not work back like a CM. So Nekounam did an awesome job covering this area basically alone.

[Doctor DOOM]

Well, if your view is correct, then shouldn't you be happy that Daei has now invited Mahdavikia?

absolutely.
I've made that perfectly clear.

what I questioned, however, was the peculiar excuses cooked up for not calling kia the last time.

[RaginG Inferno]

actually no.
I have not forgotten that peculiar statement.
especially in the light of what actually happened to our right flank during the game , and how ineffectual and impotent it became

I asked the question then and I repeat it here:
( lets remember ksa was NOT brazil and we're not guam)
what kind of tactics we were talking about that entails making our right flank so ineffective?
where in the world such tactics are drawn?
which coach does that?

so is that a silly and curious remark by daei?
hell yes.
and we all witnessed how it turned out in the game with our own eyes.


I think daei needs to be a wiser statesman or at least run his words by someone before making them. especially in the emotionally charged environment of Iranian football. we shd expect more from daei as our nat'l team coach. lets hope he can overcome his sensitivities and emotions soon.

Well, if your view is correct, then shouldn't you be happy that Daei has now invited Mahdavikia?

[Doctor DOOM]

yes, you are right. zandi hardly did much on the left flank and as usual was drifting to the middle
THAT'S WHY WE PROVED SO INCAPACITATED ON THE LEFT AS WELL AS THE RIGHT.

and with madanchi's inclusion .... or for better explanation, I must say with introduction of WIDTH into the team on the left, our left became alive and the opponents were stretched.
something that NEVER happened on the right, coz unsuitable players were forced to play on that side.

[Martin-Reza]

Actually there was no LM either as long as Zandi was there, who was also LCM. So if you shift the fourth line of your lineup slightly to the left (or rather to the right side of the team as it is bottom up) and rename LM to CM you basically have the static basic formation. With the introduction of Madanchi we then had a flat four in midfield with Shojaei on the right and Teymourian joining Nekounam in center. This was then changed again to the very risky 4-1-3-2 when Teymourian was sacrificed for OM Jabbari. We were lucky and it paid off.

1)
----------------------Rahmati--------------------
Gholamnejad--Hosseini---Aghili-----------Zare
---------------------Nekounam------------------
-----------Teymourian------Zandi--------------
----------------------Shojaei---------------------
----------------Rezaei----------------------------
---------------------------Hashemian------------

2)
----------------------Rahmati--------------------
Gholamnejad--Hosseini---Aghili-----------Zare
----------Teymourian------Nekounam-----------
Shojaei---------------------------------Madanchi
---------------Khatibi-----Hashemian------------

3)
----------------------Rahmati--------------------
Gholamnejad--Hosseini---Aghili-----------Zare
---------------------Nekounam------------------
Shojaei--------------Jabbari-----------Madanchi
---------------Khatibi-----Hashemian------------


If we look at the selected players and the lineups used against Paykan it might well be we will start with a similar system to 3) against Korea DPR, which would be very risky.

[Doctor DOOM]

you talk about the "theory" of using a diamond 4-4-2.
I'm talking about what practically happened during the game.

on paper many things can be said.
But I doubt ANY coach in their right mind would eliminate a whole flank off their team. and that is what happened to us. no width, no strategy for the right flank, ... .

we could have well been playing like :

----------- gk -----------------

RB ------ CB ---- Cb ------- LB

---------- CM----------------

----------CM---------- LM

-----------CM-----------

-------- st----st--------

yes, it certainly did look like this absrud formation where the right flank was nonexistent due to using defensive mids in that spot , who didnt do jack along the line !

[Martin-Reza]

Ok, that is a different issue, but claiming the exclusion solely was based on lack of form does not reflect what Daei said.

As for the tactics making the "flanks so ineffective" as you said, it is the 4-4-2 diamond and lots of coaches use that one. I think we have discussed this enough already.

[Doctor DOOM]

Have you suddenly forgotten Daei having said Kia doesn't fit into the tactical concept for KSA? I guess not, so I wonder why you really think it's necessary to twist facts.

actually no.
I have not forgotten that peculiar statement.
especially in the light of what actually happened to our right flank during the game , and how ineffectual and impotent it became

I asked the question then and I repeat it here:
( lets remember ksa was NOT brazil and we're not guam)
what kind of tactics we were talking about that entails making our right flank so ineffective?
where in the world such tactics are drawn?
which coach does that?

so is that a silly and curious remark by daei?
hell yes.
and we all witnessed how it turned out in the game with our own eyes.


I think daei needs to be a wiser statesman or at least run his words by someone before making them. especially in the emotionally charged environment of Iranian football. we shd expect more from daei as our nat'l team coach. lets hope he can overcome his sensitivities and emotions soon.

[Mr.Good]

This is exactly like comments made in the US presidency campaigns,
they take one candidates comment out of contest and blow it up.

poor daei, whatever he says or does, he is always wrong.

[Martin-Reza]

There is a lot between crappy and outstanding.

And also falsely quoting Daei and always leaving things out that don't correspond with your view doesn't make Daei's statements look silly but rather yours.

Have you suddenly forgotten Daei having said Kia doesn't fit into the tactical concept for KSA? I guess not, so I wonder why you really think it's necessary to twist facts.

[Doctor DOOM]

not putting him down.

just pointing out at the silly & empty statements/justifications for not calling up kia previously. that's all.

and if you think daei's just saying it and he cant say "oh sh*t kia's form is abysmal actually", well, I think YOU will get YOUR answer when kia walks onto the field ... coz no coach, in his proper mind, would use a player with crappy form in a WCQ's ... or would he????

[Martin-Reza]

lol, whatever puts him down, eh?