Iran - Saudi Post match comments

[purple_haze]

I ,accept the core of your post...purple jaan ( I do like to know your name,if that is possible ! )......

Certainly. My name is Afshin

....I remember him used to say, that he is at his best, when he plays behind Kia !!!....I wonder why he said that...may be haveing a right person, who knows his style, helps his productions !

Yes absolutely. He hasn't had anyone to complete and maximize his game since Kia.

[zzgloo]

Don't get me wrong Bahram jan, I'm not saying he's old or totally lost it and we should put hims aside. GK jan was refering to him as our engine and I was just stating that he has too little of an impact on TM (at least for the past 2 years) to be considered TM's engine (and besides as Payman was also saying a RB can hardly be the engine of the whole team).

Hmm, you seem to be mixing up his performance during the Denizli era with last year, because in cotrast to his noticable positive impact during Denizli, he did very little last year for PP to be any MVP of any sorts. He was mostly getting sent off and generally underperforming which was the reason behind him being hugely critisized by fans and media and staff and instead of getting his act together he did his usual bache bazi and ghahr which eventually ended up in him leaving for Saipa this season, amongst other facts. Oh another thing, Kaebi very very rarely played as right back in PP and the couple of times he did, he didn't do so well. It was mostly playing as a forward by Denizly which revived him for a while.

I ,accept the core of your post...purple jaan ( I do like to know your name,if that is possible ! )......
You may be also right,that he was not as good in PP either !
But, we do not know everything !!, for example, his playing in PP may have had something to do, with his currant case and complaint in court against PP,and his reson to leave PP. !!who knows.
But, all I am saying, he is still productive, and can be a good one, if invested in !....I remember him used to say, that he is at his best, when he plays behind Kia !!!....I wonder why he said that...may be haveing a right person, who knows his style, helps his productions !

[purple_haze]

Purple aziz.....
You are commenting about kabei, and " hala chi hasti ? ", as if you already have some one better in mind ?!
Gholamnejad is a good developeing player, and should be given more chances......., !!
Kabie, is faster than gholamnejad
kabei has more experince than Gholamnejad
Kabei may be even younger than gholamnejad.
kabei is smarter than gholamnejad.
...................
kabei is not a player whom has gotten old, and been washed out, or burntout.....he just need, more motivation, and right enviroment to be his old self.....................
What has kabei done lately ?.......he , after Khalili,and Bagheri ,was the MVP for the PP last year...and,yes he did lots of fast thrusts,and offensive moves for PP, who was the best in the league !
His fake ," Roll overs ", may be one of the most conning moves a player can come up with...which makes him either advance the ball,or get the free kick !
His defensive dutties, and experince as defensive player at that post in priceless !...................................
He,is not karimi, or rahman, or even Kia......he still has 5-6 more good years ahead of him, if the setting , and motivations are right !
We need to keep,gholamnejad....and that by itself, may motivate Kabei to be better !

Don't get me wrong Bahram jan, I'm not saying he's old or totally lost it and we should put hims aside at all. GK jan was refering to him as our engine and I was just stating that he has too little of an impact on TM (at least for the past 2 years) to be considered TM's engine (and besides as Payman was also saying a RB can hardly be the engine of the whole team).

Hmm, you seem to be mixing up his performance during the Denizli era with last year, because in cotrast to his noticable positive impact during Denizli, he did very little last year for PP to be any MVP of any sorts. He was mostly getting sent off and generally underperforming which was the reason behind him being hugely critisized by fans and media and staff and instead of getting his act together he did his usual bache bazi and ghahr which eventually ended up in him leaving for Saipa this season, amongst other facts. Oh another thing, Kaebi very very rarely played as right back in PP and the couple of times he did, he didn't do so well. It was mostly playing as a forward by Denizly which revived him for a while.

[zzgloo]

It seems I got to disect this matter in order to make myself more clear about this. If we were talking about the Kaebi of 2004-2006 I would agree completely. Back then he would do the whole thing you're talking about running up and down the line, participating inboth offense and defense. Specially with his speed he would contribute a lot in offense and it was because of Kia and him we had such a deadly right side. But as the persian saying goes "boodam boodam melak nist, alan chi hasti" which one should take into consideration about Kaebi. We iranians are emotional and nostalgic. When talking about Kaebi, I bet you and many others still have that picture in mind. Believe me I was the same, until I stated to put my nostalgia aside and check the reality.
What has Kaebi done in TM (compared to what he did before and was noted for in the first place) in the past 2 years? When was the last time he had an assist, when was the last time he used his speed and did one the trademark runs, overlaps and bursts into or round the defenders from the right in TM? All he has been mostly doing in the past 2 years, is to start a run, getting to around the mid line, either passing back, dribbling (often in the wrong direction towards the middle of the field) and either losing the ball or hitting a dead end and then, passing back. And don't even get me started of his constant diving or high procent of commited fouls because of over aggression.
All the points above could clearly be witnessed against Azerbaijan. He was ok defensively apart from his many commited fouls, but those fouls were mostly a direct result of his failed offensive attempts, were he would lose the ball one on one when trying to dribble and since he recently goes inside towards the middle instead of outside along the line, the turn overs are even more dangerous ( I suggest you take a look at the Azerbaijan game to see what I mean).
Believe me no one would be happier than me if the Kaebi of up to 2 years ago would be back, but what he is right now, no matter how young how energetic, how many caps he has or whatever is not having a huge positive impact on TM.

Purple aziz.....
You are commenting about kabei, and " hala chi hasti ? ", as if you already have some one better in mind ?!
Gholamnejad is a good developeing player, and should be given more chances......., !!
Kabie, is faster than gholamnejad
kabei has more experince than Gholamnejad
Kabei may be even younger than gholamnejad.
kabei is smarter than gholamnejad.
...................
kabei is not a player whom has gotten old, and been washed out, or burntout.....he just need, more motivation, and right enviroment to be his old self.....................
What has kabei done lately ?.......he , after Khalili,and Bagheri ,was the MVP for the PP last year...and,yes he did lots of fast thrusts,and offensive moves for PP, who was the best in the league !
His fake ," Roll overs ", may be one of the most conning moves a player can come up with...which makes him either advance the ball,or get the free kick !
His defensive dutties, and experince as defensive player at that post in priceless !...................................
He,is not karimi, or rahman, or even Kia......he still has 5-6 more good years ahead of him, if the setting , and motivations are right !
We need to keep,gholamnejad....and that by itself, may motivate Kabei to be better !

[Ali Chicago]

i watched the game twice and i also got it confirmed with 3 different tv channels and 3 analysts.
there are many scenes where u can see ando is clearly on the right side as a right midfielder, like the scence where shojaei dribbled 3 4 players and then entered the penalty area.

so i still disagree, but thanx for the explanation anyways.

You are welcome, here is another post that, this guy Chamanian talking about Rezai wasn't used as a forward, which that makes Hashemian as the only forward. There is a typo in the post I think and says Rezia should have been used a right back but the context makes it clear he meant forward.

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1098783&postcount=1

[Ali Chicago]

It seems I got to disect this matter in order to make myself more clear about this. If we were talking about the Kaebi of 2004-2006 I would agree completely. Back then he would do the whole thing you're talking about running up and down the line, participating inboth offense and defense. Specially with his speed he would contribute a lot in offense and it was because of Kia and him we had such a deadly right side. But as the persian saying goes "boodam boodam melak nist, alan chi hasti" which one should take into consideration about Kaebi. We iranians are emotional and nostalgic. When talking about Kaebi, I bet you and many others still have that picture in mind. Believe me I was the same, until I stated to put my nostalgia aside and check the reality.
What has Kaebi done in TM (compared to what he did before and was noted for in the first place) in the past 2 years? When was the last time he had an assist, when was the last time he used his speed and did one the trademark runs, overlaps and bursts into or round the defenders from the right in TM? All he has been mostly doing in the past 2 years, is to start a run, getting to around the mid line, either passing back, dribbling (often in the wrong direction towards the middle of the field) and either losing the ball or hitting a dead end and then, passing back. And don't even get me started of his constant diving or high procent of commited fouls because of over aggression.
All the points above could clearly be witnessed against Azerbaijan. He was ok defensively apart from his many commited fouls, but those fouls were mostly a direct result of his failed offensive attempts, were he would lose the ball one on one when trying to dribble and since he recently goes inside towards the middle instead of outside along the line, the turn overs are even more dangerous ( I suggest you take a look at the Azerbaijan game to see what I mean).
Believe me no one would be happier than me if the Kaebi of up to 2 years ago would be back, but what he is right now, no matter how young how energetic, how many caps he has or whatever is not having a huge positive impact on TM.

Brillinat post.

[purple_haze]

Dude, Kaebi at 23 years of age and 5'5 is the second most capped player
on current TM roster. Do you think coaches would want him in TM, if
he did not have something very especial to offer? I mean it is certainly
not for his imposing physique. When in shape (and I have no indication
or news to say otherwise) NO ONE can run the entire length of the right
side like he does *the whole freaking 90 minutes*. Even our beloved KIA
does 3 sprints and then you won't hear his named mentioned for 5 to 15.
You will see his impact against the much much more physically fit N.Korea
if he is healthy. I will come back to this thread next month and would love
to pick up this discussion again then.

It seems I got to disect this matter in order to make myself more clear about this. If we were talking about the Kaebi of 2004-2006 I would agree completely. Back then he would do the whole thing you're talking about running up and down the line, participating inboth offense and defense. Specially with his speed he would contribute a lot in offense and it was because of Kia and him we had such a deadly right side. But as the persian saying goes "boodam boodam melak nist, alan chi hasti" which one should take into consideration about Kaebi. We iranians are emotional and nostalgic. When talking about Kaebi, I bet you and many others still have that picture in mind. Believe me I was the same, until I stated to put my nostalgia aside and check the reality.
What has Kaebi done in TM (compared to what he did before and was noted for in the first place) in the past 2 years? When was the last time he had an assist, when was the last time he used his speed and did one the trademark runs, overlaps and bursts into or round the defenders from the right in TM? All he has been mostly doing in the past 2 years, is to start a run, getting to around the mid line, either passing back, dribbling (often in the wrong direction towards the middle of the field) and either losing the ball or hitting a dead end and then, passing back. And don't even get me started of his constant diving or high procent of commited fouls because of over aggression.
All the points above could clearly be witnessed against Azerbaijan. He was ok defensively apart from his many commited fouls, but those fouls were mostly a direct result of his failed offensive attempts, were he would lose the ball one on one when trying to dribble and since he recently goes inside towards the middle instead of outside along the line, the turn overs are even more dangerous ( I suggest you take a look at the Azerbaijan game to see what I mean).
Believe me no one would be happier than me if the Kaebi of up to 2 years ago would be back, but what he is right now, no matter how young how energetic, how many caps he has or whatever is not having a huge positive impact on TM.

[zzgloo]

know what the deal is with this argument over the formation.
all I know is we had only ONE true forward - VH.
Rezaei was all over the field slightly in front of the midfielders. what does that make him? a pseudo-forward ? whatever, but he was NOT a forward.

that's why VH was left alone w 2-3 defenders at ALL times.
if we had another true forward close to him ( rather than the midfielders ) he would have pulled one of the defenders away from VH and given VH room to breath.
rezaei was NOT such a player and was NOT played in that role.

line ups put on TV or released formation from iran camp is one thing ... but what we SEE on the pitch is another. that's why I thought it was a weird 4-1-3-1-1 or some abomination like that !

Obviously, there was something wrong to the assignement for the Forwards, during the game with the saudi's.....
And, forwards, are not to blame in such circumstances.....yet, experinced forwards, who see game is unfolding in a different way than what the coaching staff had anticipatedm,,,,do improvise....as we saw, VH , do, ...he often came back after the ball, and even helped the defensive line.....but, less experinced forwards do not know how to improvise....
We hopefuly, will have Khalili back for the next game....and I certainly hope, we can have Nikbakht back as well.........but, VH , is a must, specialy for games such as saudi's, when everything els go wrong !

[Doctor DOOM]

GK jan, I am not demeaning kaabi's role and importance. In fact I do recognize his versatility and uses. my thrust was towards the TEAM ( not the player ).
Maybe I think in physical and mechanical terms and I think of "engine" as the "center of gravity" or "focal point" of a team and in mechanical terms, this focal point shd not be to a corner of a team.
I also wish a player like nekunam or even better, a playmaker ( be it jabbari, shojaei, ... ) become the focal point of the team , who has access to all parts of the team and can be the "go-to man" on the pitch for both offense and defense. especially in offense which drives the team , rather than defense which is more "reactionary".

===========================

I really like bahram's statement that resonates so well with me ( and I'm sure w a lot of you ) :
"It is not the best we are after....., only better is what we want"
absolutely spot on.
and for a self-centered and selfish culture to not want the absolute BEST for itself and is ready to accept mediocrity, it is an enigma!

============================

I dont know what the deal is with this argument over the formation.
all I know is we had only ONE true forward - VH.
Rezaei was all over the field slightly in front of the midfielders. what does that make him? a pseudo-forward ? whatever, but he was NOT a forward.

that's why VH was left alone w 2-3 defenders at ALL times.
if we had another true forward close to him ( rather than the midfielders ) he would have pulled one of the defenders away from VH and given VH room to breath.
rezaei was NOT such a player and was NOT played in that role.

line ups put on TV or released formation from iran camp is one thing ... but what we SEE on the pitch is another. that's why I thought it was a weird 4-1-3-1-1 or some abomination like that !

[yashar_fasihnia]

Well, no way to prove it to you. But watch Ando in the first half again. See where he is. Even on the goal they scored on us, see where Ando is.
Rezai was the Weapon the Daie had counted on (to basically replace Kia). It would be Rezaie was a RM basically, but he had the freedom to float around. Him and Shojaie probably had the freedom to peneterate and play more offensive. Shojaie in the second half basically replaced Rezai on the right mid and until Khatibi came in, Iran played 4-2-3-1. When Khatibi was in, we changd to 4-4-2.

i watched the game twice and i also got it confirmed with 3 different tv channels and 3 analysts.
there are many scenes where u can see ando is clearly on the right side as a right midfielder, like the scence where shojaei dribbled 3 4 players and then entered the penalty area.

so i still disagree, but thanx for the explanation anyways.

[zzgloo]

bahram jan, if you said this was the game TM was outplayed the most, then I think you may have missed the game at Melbourne.
bro, we were getting "mochalleh" in the first half.... or rather until that maniac or blessing in disguise or angel ( call him whatever u like ) , jumped on the net.
that 55-60 minutes were the absolute WORST case of TM ever being "out-played" ( an understatement if u ask me) .
it was like Mike Tyson boxing against an 11 yr old asthmatic girl !

That was a bad one too payman jaan.............
But, during the first half with saudi's........The referee was in our side with a penalty,,...and not only they had at least 5 chances of 99% goals...they also played with authurity, and great flow...and was kind of intimidateing !!!all from a team, and a country which did not have football team ,25 years ago.....
and from a country,that FIFA believes,has taken over IRan as the legit power
in Asia...............................
How hard was it for a coach, to find out,that Iran's best chances against saudi's was with Iran's midfield ! ?......and the head coach of Iran, after many camps , and large number of midfiled players to choose from...did not know !!
.................................................. .................................
PS, ..during the game, Zare's repeated goofs reminded me of you !!!

[zzgloo]

That's a fair post. and I too can agree with a lot of things you said there. but then I remember that there is this thing called "beza-at".. and I remember that beza-at-eh ma hameeneh agha bahram..


from gov control, to fan behavior, from the selection of TM coach , to IFF elections and the whole state of affairs in our country, are all the result of our "beza-at" as a society.. that's what we have and that's what we are...

The way I see it, there is very little a TM coach can do to affect the progress of our football.. the notion that Daie or this coach or that coach is going to do this or that for our football is simply an irrelevant fantasy..

the correction of what is wrong has to come from the top (or should I say from the bottom).. it's the foundation that is messed up.. Put Afazeli in as the TM coach and give him the same players and there be very little difference in the performance...

the way I see it, our game against KSA was far better than the game we played against Japan in Japan in WCQ games 2005.. at least against KSA we had new players, new coaches and a lot of pressure because it was the first game.. In The game against Japan we and Japan had already advanced (so there was no pressure), our coach was a very good, foreign educated and WC experienced Branko who had 5 years with TM, with the same players he had had during that 5 years, and the performance in the first half was so bad that the Commentators (both English speaking) were laughing at the way TM was playing..

bottom line, agha bahram, as far as I remember, our footballing expectations have always been way ahead of our realities..

given all that, Daie is as good as any coach, even though he is not the right one, at this point. I think he has qualities that most of our other coaches don't, I just wish he was less parkhash-gar. we need to give him more time to see what he can do and hope for the best. don't we always?

Behzad-B jaan.....
While I recognize, how profound your post is....I must disagree......with the conclusion, ( Not argument ) you came up with !
We have often, here in F+ talked about this very same issue, with other intelegent members such as yourself....., as, things are foundementaly wrong, both in our system, and our culture........., but, the conclusion, as what is to be done,...?... different members had different ideas !
It is true, " Khaleyegh,harcheh layegh ".......it is true ,we have the most selfish, selfcentered, culture....etc..etc....
But, It is also true, in general, our culture is an smart culture....our fellow country men do better than most others in foerign lands..it is also true, our culture has many things others do not,and envy , as well.
We have so many wrongs,But, giveing up !, has never been one of them !
.....stupid is also not a charactoristic Iranians are known by either !
When, a coach, appears to be , not so smart !,in relations with the people and the media.....how could he possibily ,all of the sudden, be smart as a head coach ?...........what would cause such unnatureal jump ?
It is not the best we are after....., only better is what we want........,
If we accept our " Beza at ", we will always have the islamic republic.....and I assure you, they will be toppled soon!by these very faulty people !
.................................................. ...........................
50 million Iranian football fans, whom have very little els, for entertaiment, should not be disappointment,and lose thier aspirations .because, of one man's immaturity....
.................................................. ...................................
The case with Daei is very simple !
if you look at his Photos, before becomeing the head coach....and compare it with his photos after he became the head coach....you will see the simple reason in his face !
It happened, to Shah......it happened to Khameneiee, it happened to Daei...
as .." Power corrupts....!!.....and power at the possession of a naive, becomes damageing arrogance !

[Ali Chicago]

We got a draw from KSA and it is great, Daie did two great subs and all that.
Having said that, our team in general couldn't impose a sustained pressure on the KSA team. Either KSA team wasn't physically fit for a high pace game they played, or our players are super fit. I don't know. But I say it here, offensive/defensive transition of KSA was great, specially heir offensive transition.
These are the great things KSA team did and I hope our coaching staff keep track of it IMO(which I am sure they are).

1. Getting to the second ball (ball rebounded by our defnse) behind our box, KSA mids Ateef, Alshaloob specially were very good. On the contrary our mids were too far from KSA goal and almost stuck to our defense line. Look at the picture of the first goal people posted for the first goal.
   
2. Closing the space to our player. Any of our players got the ball 2-3 KSA players surronding him. Shojaii had the technique to dribble around (rather ineffectively if u ask me) but rest of our team was turning the ball over.
   
3. Moving to the spaces between our players. Quick one touch passes for the counter attack. In the scene that Gholamnezahd attacked on the right and lost the ball next to the corner flag of KSA and they counter attacked, under 10secs they were attacking our goal. Still no Gholamnezhad has comeback and KSA player stole the ball off the Nekoo and created a second chance.
   
4. Ben Sultan and Alharthi did a great job to check back, get a one touch pass, but by doing this, pull our defenders that was marking them off the front of the goal.
   
5. They spread the ball well until the 60th minute. It seemed after that, they got tired or maybe our team played much better.
   
6. Alshaloob (number 10) and Ben Sultan 7, made deep runs with the ball and constantly moving without the ball (see KSA first goal and movement of Ben Sultan on the overlap that in part distracted Nekoo from Marking 11 Alharthi. Both 10 and 7 did a great job to do lateral runs and place themselves in the spaces across our defnes (spaces between LB and RB and two CB repectively).

Our team's goal was a good work on a set piece that is nothing more nothing less. The only other combined work I recall is the cross by Zaree or maybe nekoo and heading of Hashemian on the goal who goalie kind of funnily batted it. We sure should enjoy the pleasure of 1 away point, but our team has a lot of work, don't doubt it. I am sure our coaching staff in private won't mind sharing it with someone (who they turst, not in the public papers), which is the right thing. Don't let this draw hide our weaknesses.

[Ali Chicago]

sorry but i disagree, iran did play 4-4-2 diamond. irib, TV3 as well as tapesh (mehran molkara was the analyst also confirmed it).

----------------------------------------rahmati--------------------------------------------
----gholamnejad------hosseini----------------aghili--------------zare------------
--------------------------------------nekounam----------------------------------------
--------------------ando---------------------------------------zandi-------------------
----------------------------------------shojaei------------------------------------------
--------------------------rezaei-------------------------hashemian------------------


i watched the game replay today again on dubai sports, and im 100% sure it was 4-4-2 diamond. nekounam was our only DM with ando and zandi as our RM and LM respective and shojaei playing as playmaker behind the 2 strikers.


btw if mansoor is reading this thread, congratz to him! i think he has become quite a regular of the show and im sure exchanging ideas and opinions with someone as intelligent and expert like mehran molkara is a great experience! damet garm agha mansoor!

Well, no way to prove it to you. But watch Ando in the first half again. See where he is. Even on the goal they scored on us, see where Ando is.

Rezai was the Weapon the Daie had counted on (to basically replace Kia). It would be Rezaie was a RM basically, but he had the freedom to float around. Him and Shojaie probably had the freedom to peneterate and play more offensive. Shojaie in the second half basically replaced Rezai on the right mid and until Khatibi came in, Iran played 4-2-3-1. When Khatibi was in, we changd to 4-4-2.

[gol_kuchik]

I have to strongly disagree. We have to be extremely badbakht if Kaebi is our engine. Today's Kaebi with his current form and recent performances is most definately nothing we couldn't live without as evident from Gholamnejad's performance. Right now at this moment Gholamnejad matches and surpasses Kaebi in every department but experience and over-aggression.

Dude, Kaebi at 23 years of age and 5'5 is the second most capped player
on current TM roster. Do you think coaches would want him in TM, if
he did not have something very especial to offer? I mean it is certainly
not for his imposing physique. When in shape (and I have no indication
or news to say otherwise) NO ONE can run the entire length of the right
side like he does *the whole freaking 90 minutes*. Even our beloved KIA
does 3 sprints and then you won't hear his named mentioned for 5 to 15.
You will see his impact against the much much more physically fit N.Korea
if he is healthy. I will come back to this thread next month and would love
to pick up this discussion again then.

Third, while I agree that kaabi’s role is very important in our team, I also believe no team shd have its ENGINE playing so far back. The role of the engine shd be in the midfield, preferably a central position. So that responsibility rests with players like Nekunam , Ando, Shojaei, Jabbari, Zandi, sadeghi ( since we cant get rid of him !! ), …
But just a look at the top list we see many of them are incapable or unfit to take the responsibility.

DD Jan, eventhough he is officially used as right middle fielder he is also used in this hybrid right back which takes on the responsibilities of coming forward
all the way. In fact he is one of the most versitile players RB, RM and also
a forward as we saw a few times with PP. I think against UAE in UAE he
played as RB though (but it does not seem like he confine himself to that role). At any rate my point was TMs coherence and speed will only improve with his presence, (both on
press as well as forward attack) and I certainly felt his absence in the
first half. He is obviously not a ball distributer, and not an ENGINE by that definition, but
more so from the perspective of his impact as I described.