Iran vs. UAE Game [merged]

[Ali Chicago]

Adel Ferdousipour asked Clemente on Navad: "what formation will you use (or prefer)"... Clemente responded: "..first tell me who has the ball.."..

that's what football is all about guys, not formations...

Transitional football is where we need to improve on.. going from defense to offense, and vise versa

I can't help remembering ghotbi's famous phrase, "sazemandehee teamee"..

he used that phrase a lot early on.. that's the area we are lacking big time.. and that starts with our defenders.. once we have the right defenders in there, we can get the offense going..

how much offense did any one of our defenders orchestrate today?
How many times did Zareh, Aghili, jalali or Kaabi jump start or initiated an attack?
How does playing with 2 forwards, make our midfield or defenders play better??
How does playing with 1 less midfielder , make our offense better?

by the way, today, Daie made slight changes to his formation, and if you wonder why UAE team had full control of the midfield for such long periods of time, you may want to count your forwards..

Very breif yet to the point. Thank you.

[yashar_fasihnia]

oh btw, not to distract anyone from the serious topic on hand, but is so cool seeing two ss hardcore fans go at it and argue each other (amin and yashar) lol so unusual...come on guys,,,where is the unity
sry folks, keep up the discussions.

armin jan

do u see any unity in our football? do u see any unity anywhere in iran? why do u expect anything else now? if we had any unity in out football, would our football be so miserable??

[yashar_fasihnia]

Dear Innocent victimized bigonah Amin,

1) im sorry but when ur sarcastic comments are directed towards one member and supporting another member, its no longer a shookhi or an ice breaker! az poshte kooh naymadim amin agha, nor was i born yesterday. i have had several discussions with u and i have seen ur previous " sarcastic jokes and ice breakers" as well!
looks like im not the one who has to go somewhere and learn something...

2) i didnt say u need my permission to jump into a discussion. i said, U DONT EVEN KNOW WAT THE TOPIC IS BUT U JUMP IN AND MAKE SOME ARGUMENTS WHICH HAVE MINIMAL RELEVANCE! IF U CLAIM U DO KNOW WAT THE ARGUMENT WAS, THEN HOW COME UR EXAMPLES WERE ALL IRRELEVANT? SO DOES THAT MEAN UR INFO WHICH U USE TO SUPPORT UR CLAIMS ARE WRONG? it can mean either of the 2, either u didnt know wat the topic was, or u knew wat the topic was but ur supporting argument and example were wrong! i cant think of a 3rd reason why u would provide wrong examples!

looks like u need to read my posts more carefully, before telling me i posted another shahname for u.

3)when we were playing with Alavi as DM, we still didnt play 4-2-3-1. we might have played with more than 1 DM, but we didnt play 4-2-3-1!

4)even u r panama example, we didnt play 4-2-3-1! so ur argument is still irrelevant like i said! u enjoy ridiculing TMs victories under branko while making a big thing of TMs losses, so im not surprised as history previously has shown since i myself have had many discussions with u before. I dont need to go anywhere to learn the difference between criticisms and negative remarks, thankyou.Your sarcastic post was not criticizing (neither was it an icebreaker), its making negative remarks and ridiculing. wins against the other teams are either too insignificant or the opponent is to weak for u, but the loss in friendlies are major catastrophies and made a big deal ofand ofcourse, performance against bosnia and croatia, u nicely ignore like before when we had similar arguments but anywayz, this discussion is not about branko's results. its about 4-2-3-1 and its "failure" like u and doctor doom claimed which i provided counter examples and u guys are yet to provide sufficient arguments and examples for ur claims!

5)again, like i said, u either dont read my posts carefully or u havent followed the discussions here cos I NEVER SAID PORTUGAL AND ARABS ARE THE SAME AND WE SHOULD PLAY 4-2-3-1 ALWAYS! i even said my own preference is 4-4-2 diamond but i would understand if TM palys 4-2-3-1 given the current circumstances! even in the thread in football forum where someone asked if teymourian - nekounam combo is good, i said, sometimes yes, sometimes no.
both in football and football forum, i have mentioned it several times, even in threads u were involved about this, but looks like, ONCE AGAIN (how surprising ), U DIDNT READ IT OR IGNORE IT OR FORGOT IT OR I DUNNO WAT... BUT MADE UR OWN CONCLUSIONS FROM MY SIDE ABOUT MY OPINION!


Sincerely yours,
The "all knowing prophet" who forgives u, not for jumping into a discussion, but jumping into a discussion with wrong info or not having enough info about wat the discussion was about.

[RaginG Inferno]

People have roo dar vaysi with Daie. UAE is the same team that our team melli under GN beat them twice last year 2-1 and 1-0 (in UAE) and see how they outplayed us in Tehran.

Absolutely right. Ghalenoei was definitely not perfect, but his performance was far superior to what has been shown by Ali Daei so far.

I am of the basic opinion that Ali Daei needs much more experience before attempting to coach Iran. It's a shame we lost Clemente; he slipped through our fingers. Iran needs a coach that can impose a completely different system of play in our team. The problem is fundamental, the system needs to go.

I am of the feeling that Iran's players are very undisciplined in their tactical play. I would kill to give this team over to Guus Hiddink!

[Amin_]

heheh Armin jaan, waghti resid be TM, "color molor" wa "EsEs MesMes" ma saremoon nemishe

TM comes above all!

Then Esteghlal



And last and least of course there's PP

[Amin_]

And sorry , I couldn't hold myself in:

* Yeah I guess all those times before Ando came when Alavi used to play DM, or even Golmo, those all happaned in one of my dreams (or nightmares?)that I used to have about Branko every night.

* Yes aghayeh Yashar khan, Portugal and all these weak Arab countries are the same
We should play the same system ALL THE TIME, no matter who our opponent is.

Iran vs. Brazil --> 4-2-3-1

Iran vs. Libanon/UAE/Kuwait... in Azadi --> 4-2-3-1



That's what I meant with lack of flexibility, but I don't blame you if you don't see any difference here and I bet you will find something to counter attack, but it's all good, I have said what I needed to and I don't feel like continuing this discussion (cause apparently it wasn't meant for me ). So you can have the last word and feel "proud" about it

Once again: Sorry for having jumped in your knowledgeable discussions with my lack of knowledge, please forgive me

[The-Red]

oh btw, not to distract anyone from the serious topic on hand, but is so cool seeing two ss hardcore fans go at it and argue each other (amin and yashar) lol so unusual...come on guys,,,where is the unity
sry folks, keep up the discussions.

[The-Red]

only if some ppl in the IFF and in the system cared as much as some of us on this forum...I recommend the Football plus forum members for the next IFF election...we would have a shot at making the wc 2014

[Amin_]

banamak! we didnt even play 4-2-3-1 against QPR. looks like u dont even know wat the discussion is about but just decided to jump in to make ur usual negative remarks about branko

Guess you need to learn to see the difference between a serious discussion (like we've been having over those long posts) and a joke/shookhi/fooling around/ice breaking-post with tons of smilies and sarcasm in it.

FYI I do know what the discussion is all about, and even if I didn't, I still could and should be able to jump in whenever I want for a little joke and some ice breakers!

You don't need to write me a whole new shahname again for that post of mine!

And please go learn the difference between criticism and "negative remarks" and then come here to say all that. Criticizing Branko/Daei/Qn or whoever for their systems/tactics doesn't mean I'm wishing them dead or that I'm only "making negative comments".

For you to interpret that joke/ice breaker like the way you did and to come up with remarks as "you don't know what it's all about and you jump in (bebakhshid keh azetoon avaal sa'al nakardam, I didn't know this forum and these discussions were only for you and DD ) with your usual negative remarks" (lol, again bebakhshid keh aghayeh Branko-ro criticize kardam ), says al lot...



PS: Aslan for the sake of discussion: ok we didn't play 4-2-3-1 against QPR, still aghayeh Branko was the coach and we lost with him sitting on the bench!!!!

And btw, I used QPR so I could make my
"Panama had 1 player form the English 3rd division (this was a joke as well, before you start writing 3 pages again about how Panama didn't have any players playing in England lol) and QPR had even a 23 men roster from the English 3rd disvision, so they were even better than the World Class Panama"- joke.

PPS: Have a good time with your discussion and sorry for jumping in without knowing anything, you all-knowing-prophet

[yashar_fasihnia]

Ehhh doctor jaan, in harfaro nazan, Panama had a player who played in the English 3rd division and Lybia had drawn Egypte 20 decades ago, THESE ARE WORLD CLASS TEAMS!
We should all send Branko some flowers for having drawn and even beaten some of these WORLD CLASS TEAMS IN AZADI
And not to even mention QPR, I mean they even had 11 players and a 23 men roster of players from the ENGLISH 3RD DIVISION, I mean hat'ta az Panama-ham behtar boodan
I thanked God we had Branko, cause he was the only man who could keep the score reasanably down to only a defeat by 3 goals

banamak! we didnt even play 4-2-3-1 against QPR. looks like u dont even know wat the discussion is about but just decided to jump in to make ur usual negative remarks about branko

if thats the case, we beat bosnia 2-1 & 5-2 and tied croatia 2-2 (they have players in top teams from top leagues of the world) under the same branko u cant stand seeing him being given some credit

just to enlighten u now that u decided to jump into the discussion to find fault with anything related to branko, we were talking about TM playing 4-2-3-1 formation and the results they got. but its ok, u enjoy belittling some of our players and coaches like some people. go ahead and do that if it makes u feel happy. afterall, iranian football is used to all kind of mockery of players and coaches and putting down others and their work.

-----------

like i said, can anyone here please provide me all the games we played AGAINST QUALITY OPPONENTS OF DOCTOR DOOM OR AMINs STANDARDS WITH THE 4-2-3-1 FORMATION? HOW MANY DID WE PLAY AND WAT WERE THE RESULTS??

if im not mistaken, we started playing 4-2-3-1 formation ever since andranik teymourian proved himself and earned himself a TM spot. before that, we used to play 4-4-2 diamond with daei and hashemian upfront, karimi behind them, zandi on left, kia on right and nekounam as DM.


teymourians debut match was against libya on 24 august 2005. so im assuming that we started playing 4-2-3-1 since that game.

here is the list of TM games since that date until the last game against angola which we played under branko in worldcup 2006

Iran 4:0 (2:0) Libya
24/08/2005 TEHRAN Friendly

Korea Republic 2:0 (1:0) Iran
12/10/2005 SEOUL Friendly

Iran 2:0 (1:0) Togo
13/11/2005 TEHRAN Friendly

Iran 4:0 (1:0) Chinese Taipei
22/02/2006 TEHRAN Continental Qualifier

Iran 3:2 (3:1) Costa Rica
01/03/2006 TEHRAN Friendly

Croatia 2:2 (1:1) Iran
28/05/2006 OSIJEK Friendly

Iran 5:2 (3:2) Bosnia-Herzegovina
31/05/2006 TEHRAN Friendly

Mexico 3:1 (1:1) Iran
11/06/2006 NUREMBERG FIFA World Cup™ Final

Portugal 2:0 (0:0) Iran
17/06/2006 FRANKFURT/MAIN FIFA World Cup™ Final

Iran 1:1 (0:0) Angola
21/06/2006 LEIPZIG FIFA World Cup™ Final


we beat libya, bosnia (twice), costa rica and togo.
we drew with croatia.
we lost to korea, mexico and portugal.

now please tell me wat ur argument is? that 4-2-3-1 won only against weak teams but didnt win against strong teams??

and u were expecting us to beat portugal and mexico? mexico we played great with the same 4-2-3-1 formation until the 60th minute where we ran out of stamina.

now, we played 1 friendly against korea in korea and we lost. does that justify the failure of the 4-2-3-1 system? how many other games did we have of DOCTOR DOOM OR AMINS quality and lost with the 4-2-3-1 system that they are making such claims? those are the games we played, and those are the results we got. u be the judge urself.

does beating bosnia 5-2 & 2-1, libya 4-0, costa rica 3-2, togo 2-0 and drawing croatia 2-2 on their own their own turf when the referee GIFTED THEM a 93rd minute penalty NOT SAY ANYTHING?? so all these teams were weak according to DOCTOR DOOM AND AMIN or do they think that these results were not good enough for the 4-2-3-1 formation i wonder?? how many teams of DOCTOR DOOMS and AMINS HIGH STANDARDS did we play with the 4-2-3-1 system in the first place that they are ridiculing the wins against teams like libya??

[Amin_]

Ehhh doctor jaan, in harfaro nazan, Panama had a player who played in the English 3rd division and Lybia had drawn Egypte 20 decades ago, THESE ARE WORLD CLASS TEAMS!

We should all send Branko some flowers for having drawn and even beaten some of these WORLD CLASS TEAMS IN AZADI

And not to even mention QPR, I mean they even had 11 players and a 23 men roster of players from the ENGLISH 3RD DIVISION, I mean hat'ta az Panama-ham behtar boodan
I thanked God we had Branko, cause he was the only man who could keep the score reasanably down to only a defeat by 3 goals

[yashar_fasihnia]

i think we played 4-2-3-1 against bosnia and croatia as well.

u didnt expect us to beat portugal did u?
please tell me how many games 4-2-3-1 played against STRONG OPPONENTS of UR STANDARDS and wat the results were.

how many games did we play against korea, japan or any strong team of UR STANDARDS with a 4-2-3-1 formation that ur complaining?

u talk as if we have been playing all top teams and 4-2-3-1 didnt work with any of them

[Doctor DOOM]

TM has been delivering results and/or performance with 4-2-3-1 quite well and i gave examples.

TM has been ...... "winning" with 4-2-3-1 ?

whom? lybia? panama?
THAT is the stats that supports this statement?

Do-zaari hala oftaad.
My apologies.
for a while I actually thought we ALL want TM to be BETTER than what it is.
I thought we ALL would like to set a moderately higher standards for our national team .... say for example going toe to toe with japan or korea, at least.
I wasnt aware beating lybia and zambia ( with gift-penalties ) is the ceiling of our demands.

no wonder I see the statement: "TM has been getting the results ....".
my sincere apologies for wasting everyone's time here. I, for a second, thought we'd like to keep our level ABOVE that of lybia and azerbaijan and panama.


rest assured I wont press MY demands on anyone here anymore.

I have always stated what "MY" opinion is and what "I" want from TM and what would satisfy "ME" and will not expect anyone else to follow suit.

[Amin_]

Yashar, it’s almost 1 am here and like you, I’ll try to keep the reply as short as possible. I also believe that everything that had to be said has been said and everything else from now on will be repetition, and frankly I don’t feel like making such a long post (ever) again lol

1) It’s not been only 3-4 games, it’s been the last few years that TM had to play this formation! Sometimes when you see that a certain strategy doesn’t work, as it doesn’t give you the desired results or a satisfying game performance, and has not worked for us in the past as well, one has to try another strategy! Like I said in my othr post, sometimes a coach tries a specific system for his team, they keep underperforming every time, and as a result the coach gets fired. Then comes another coach, who plays another formation with the same group of players and from their very first game under this coach you see a totally new and fresh team who plays nice football and gets results. This means that the system the previous coach (and in TM’s case, coaches) tried to implement, simply did not work for this group of players!
We’ve whitnessed over and over again that this system has not only been bad for our performance, it also has failed to bring us results (I know we won yesterday, but please read DD’s other thread, we even played worse than in Azadi, and with this performance we’ll definitely get our asses burned in the next round!).
We easily could’ve drawn or lost the match, and where would have we been standing then? Indeed, with 3-4 points from 4 games…




2) Madanchi and Kazemian have played RM and LM before, not only at their clubs but also in TM. They are good enough to fulfil defensive duties, plus bring a lot to our offense. They also have the strength and the potential to fill up gaps, run in free spaces and transfer back for their defensive role when we’ve lost the ball, and that for a great part of the match (not only 10-15 minutes like some of our other players). Anyway the most important part for me is to have a clear playmaker and 2 strikers, that’s how I see it. (I could go into this deeper, but I’m trying to keep the post as short as possible).

Transition from defence to offense doesn’t have to get any better with more midfielders! We’ve seen that with Ando/Sadeghi playing! Perhaps if we had other players, like Bagheri (from past), this could’ve worked, but with the actual players it has only gotten worse, cause they simply are not capable or not in form enough to play a role in this transition!
So again, I’m not saying this system in awful in general, as it could be working for any team if the right players are present and if the team adapts well to it (which TM hasn’t!), but not in TM!!


3) Again, I brought up Branko, simply because it’s been his system that we’re playing today and to say that when you don’t have the right tools for a certain system, don’t play it. But don’t be a wimp and play your most crucial player out of position just to have him in the starting line up and cause you’re afraid to take out other players (this is a general thing).
Please see my previous post on this point for more ,where I explained the Zandi, Qn/Branko issue deeper...

(yes, still trying my best to keep it as short as possible, I think I need a vacation after that previous post lol).


4) Again, and please try to understand this, no one of us here on this forum (ok perhaps except for Mansoor) is a (professional) analyzer, and whatever we say is nothing more than PERSONAL VIEWS!!!! It’s nothing but common sense.
So when I say something like "DAEI IS BEING LAJBAZ (btw I haven’t said that part), 4-2-3-1 HAS PROVEN TO BE A FAILURE IN TM ALL THSI WHILE!" it’s common sense that it is MY OPINION, so I don’t see the need to say that everything I've said have been MY OPINION everytime I post something, and I don’t see the need to present it in a way that people get that it is not a mathematical formula. Everyone knows that we’re just expressing opinions here on this forum and that no one of us is a professional analyzer!

I’m not saying that they should hang Daei for using this system, all what we’re doing here is having a discussion and trying to find answers to why certain things happen in our football and what is the best solution (as just TM fans who’re interested in their team).

So excuse me if my post gave the impression that I was a professional analyzer, but I am not
I’m just a simple fan with average football knowledge who loves TM and tries to find answers to certain matters.


5) Again, it’s not like the players are not familiar with other systems and would take 10 years for them to adapt to new ones! Just because a couple of players play the same system in their clubs doesn’t mean they are more comfortable playing it! Perhaps the system works for their club team and the players they have there, but it does not mean it would automatically work for TM as well if you have 8-9 players in your team who’ve played this system for a couple of games in their clubs. And like I said before, the level, players list, opponents, coaches etc are all different in club competitions!

Also, I bet that even had we had only 1 player in our current TM squad who’d been playing the 4-2-3-1 system at their club, and had we had 17 players playing 4-4-2, still we would be playing with the 4-2-3-1 system. I’m completely certain of this.


6) Believe me, I did read your post with care. You assumed that I wanted wing play, which wasn’t the case, and you kept writing how me “wanting wing play in TM” (which is not true) is dubious because it doesn't fit other formations. But like I already explained to you in the previous post, it was a wrong assumption, and in fact I was saying that currently I don’t necessarily want to have wing play in TM, because we don’t have the right tools at the moment, and more importantly, because I believe having 2 strikers and a clear playmaker would be much better.


I really didn’t feel like writing so much and tried to keep it as short as possible, so sorry if it turned out to be a long one after all.

I also hope for the same. Long live Iran, long live TM.

Inshallah that we see TM in South Africa!

[yashar_fasihnia]

oh well, this is my last post too. in brief,

1)i gave examples of both european and iranian teams to show it works with all kind of players and coaches against all kinds of strong and weak opponents. i gave examples of perspolis and sepahan in IPL and ACL as well. im giving a general picture, stop focusing on 1 example.

2)i repeat, TM has been delivering results and/or performance with 4-2-3-1 quite well and i gave examples. so i have a case.
on the other hand, the same 2 striker formation can be destructive a well which i gave examples as well.

i think 4-2-3-1 has been working quite well with TM. maybe we havent scored the most number of goals, but we certainly have won many games which is wat matters the most. so i have a case, and i gave examples again but u dont wanna accept them.

i didnt say denizli would fail with TM. i said even denizlis offensive tactics can fire back. THIS WAS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW PLAYING OFFENSIVE WHILE DISREGARDING UR VULNERABLE DEFENSE CAN BE CATASTROPHIC. ITS ABOUT WINNING GAMES. AND WINNING DOESNT MEAN SCORING GOALS, WINNING MEANS SCORING GOALS WHILE CONCEDING LESS OR NO GOALS!

3)Im certainly not satisfied with TMs performance, but i dont wanna mix up things and blame it on formation or blame it on the single forward struggling upfront. I said earlier wat i blame it on which was clear in the poll i made.
the aim of football is to win, not for strikers to score goals. if the cost of victory of a team is a single forward upfront struggling among 4 defenders, then we have to pay for it cos atleast we are winning. wats the use of putting up a 2nd striker and letting our strikers have it easier but then conceding goals and losing?

and u seem to either not read or nicely ignore certain comments in my posts like all those examples about perspolis and sepahan. also, i clearly said my fav formation is 4-4-2 diamond, but at this moment given the circumstances, i would totally understand and supprot daei if he opts for the 4-2-3-1 formation which he did. i see a lot of reasons why this formation was most suitable at this time for TM. if u dont, then thats ur view of football, nothing more, nothing less. i havent closed my eyes on anything, and i have provided enough examples from all around the world, including iran and TM where 4-2-3-1 has been successful in terms of results and/or performance while other formations with more than 1 striker have failed. its upto u to accept them or not. mind u, this doesnt mean 4-4-2 is a failure and 4-2-3-1 wont fail at all. it just means, there are positive and negative results for all types of formations, even in iran. so i cant accept ur argument that 4-2-3-1 has failed with TM and certainly, some coaches and experts cant either!

thanx for ur time.