Bagheri, koja'ee ke yadet be kheir

[Doctor DOOM]

anyway, the thread was about bagheri, not daei.

and btw, anyone else shares this view that Aghaei seems to be a slightly poorer clone of Bagheri ?
obviously he has a long way to be compared to karim. but so far he has shown aspects of his game that resemble the areas bagheri was famous for.

he is energetic, plays in the center midfield, whacks the ball real hard, comes forward to score goals, ..... ( is playing for pp ), (is he a turk?) ... has two hands, two eyes and a nose ( ok , I'm running out of points here ) much like karim.

[Ali Chicago]

Payman Jaan;

I am not saying one shouldn't discuss, but at each moment there are priorities and less important stuff. At this moment to me, supporting Daie despite the past is the priority. To some degree to us (human) in social affair there is no reality. There is perception. Remmber the perception that was created around GN. Alos remember the perception that made Daie the so called best player in Iran.

I unlink Ala or many people who made that smeer campaign during the GN era or for taht matter most Iranian coachs, wil keep quiet (despite my reservations).

Suffice to say, Daie was never the best football player of Iran. Globalization didn't exist in football during the 70 or even 80s at least it wasn't as prelevant as it became in 90s. Daie became famous and as the harbinger of Iranina football due to the phonomenon of football globalization. Otherwise we had many other players who deserved much more than him.

On that note, let's agree to disagree on this and move on.

[Doctor DOOM]

Ali jan, I'm ready to give you this much: I agree daei shd have recognized and noticed his decline in abilities earlier and had perhaps suggested some rest here and there ( forcing branko to use others. this would have taken a lot of strain and fan pressure off daei's back as well. very important in hindsight ).

he shd have also retired a year earlier.

but I also KNOW the man he is, given his never-ending hunger and motivation, his tremendous ambitious nature would NOT have given up so easily with 10-11 months left to the WC and a chance to play at his final WC ... and perhaps score a goal , which would be the icing on the cake.

I'm sure you know, such ambitious egos rarely are led by absolute logic.

again, I must say it is not so much HIS fault as much as the coach.
afterall, daei can and may want to play till he's 70. it is the COACH who has to open his goddamn eyes and recognize while the hunger is there, the ability isnt all that much. as they say, the spirit is willing but the body isnt.

even if branko was under such delusions, he could have easily used him sparingly. or subbed him in/out here and there. but he didnt.

so the majority of fault still lies with the coach.


===============


and as for dialogue and debate, I enjoy all of yours and everyone else's views. be it similar or contrary to mine.
.
.
.
.
. well, not so much those who blindly follow that gutless moron, branko, though

but seriously, that's why I visit pfdc or any football site.


and now for this misunderstood, yet commonly used falsity that ppl choose to stay quiet becoz of TM or becoz TM has a game or .... !
that goes for the general forum, to especially keep some unruly kids in their place.

but seriously, ppl. COME OOOONNN !
how many of you think if I come and say "die TM, die" TM's fortune's going to be anything different ?
really.


at least I dont think by discussing pros and cons of an issue something good or bad is going to befall a team, a player, a nation or ... !!!
yes, even if some players, staff or hell, even if DAEI himself comes to the site and reads this.

hell, with all the discussion, who knows. maybe some ppl actually open up aspects and shed light on areas and topics less observed or noticed by ppl.
( just as I hoped a certain poll on TM's weak areas in the run up to WC would perhaps convince human jan to convey to branko that almost ENTIRE communities of fans have recognized/noticed the problematic areas of the team are LB and left wing, followed by GK. and they cant go on sweeping it under the rug. plus other matters such as no alternatives for main players ... blah, blah blah . and somehow hoped it would nudge them to act. )

so all of you, plz stop this "oh, I'm not going to say anything becoz TM or ss or pp or ... is having a game next tuesday" !!!

[Doctor DOOM]

I truly believe the "best player" is bestowed on him not only based on his capabilities ( which arent that little anyway ), but also there's the added value of international fame, his exploits in his area of specialty, his endurance and .... generally what he brought for himself and IRAN's football.

the summation of all that makes him one of the best players in our history.

the term "complete" has obviously different meanings.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jaan......lets clarify what is it we are talking about.......
I know, you do not mean daei had no talents,......and I believe, you mostly are concerened that his extended playing time might have hurt the developement of other forwards !!!.............Is that what you are saying ?
As for not haveing all the talents...I must say, almost all players are short in something !
I also , think, Ali Daei, was short in talents in many areas....as his body language, was like he seldom lokked at the ball,or the ground..as his head and chest were always up, and gave that impression, he might stumble on the ball under his foot !,yet that made him pay more attention to what was going on on the air !
one thing about ali daei we should never, ever,understimate..is the fact, that he has scored more goal than any human being in total history !!
that alone, is indication of something right and special !!, and no accident !
If you recall.
1- hassan Roshan, hardly knew how to head the ball.
2- the speed of ali parvin, or his heading ability was non-existant.
3- ghechikhani,also was stiff,and not much of dribbller.
......................
And finaly................Ali Daei's extended playing on the field, IMHO, should never be blamed on him !

I never said Daie didnt' have a talent, the man was a great footballer. But if you read my post, I say since 1988 that I was able to watch him, he wasn't a great player (again since 19998 I stress).

There are very good players and they are Great players. Saeed Maraghecheeyan, Ebraheem Ghasempoor, Nazari, Eskandarian, Iran Solaymani, Hossein Kalani, Ismayel Hajrahimipoor, Ali Jabbari, Gholam Fathabadi were good players.

But Gheelecch overall was a great player, Nasser Hejazi, Parvin or Hassan Rowshan, Ali Karimi.

IMO Daie was never in the same accolade as great players in Iran. He moved to Germany (during the era of reform in Iran) where Europe was much more open toward Iran and there was a better Federation in Place and somehow he got undue credit IMO.

Ali jan,

I dont think ANYONE here thinks daei is a complete player. yes, he does have shortcomings in many areas, such as ball skills and pace. which sort of answers many of ur points up there.

but by god, you cant be serious when you bring up "finishing". are you?
if anything he has shown he was a pretty good finisher.
that's like saying ronaldinho cant control the ball !!!
or Buffon cant catch a ball !!



in fact we have to really search to find a complete player, especially in asia and more pronounced, in Iran.
every player has some strong points and some weak ones as well.
that's why Bagheri's overall high and acceptable scores in many aspects of a player marks him distinct from other Iranian players. coz that makes him rare.


==============

as for the age-old claims that daei's presence didnt allow other forwards to flourish, I'd have to say I didnt expct it from you, ali jan.

this argument doesnt hold much water simply becoz it is NOT the PLAYER who chooses to be called up. you, as a coach, shd know better.
if a coach decides to pick a player then it is the player's duty to accept.
I agree, it is unfortunate to see many talents laid wasted becoz of moronic wrong policies adopted by the coach ( like using daei in meaningless friendlies and weak opponent official games like laos or ... ) when he could have and SHOULD have used the likes of borhani, khatibi, enayati, ...... that blame shd entirely lie on the shoulders of the coach. not the player.

come on, man. I know you cant mean that.

People called him the best player in Iran and blah blah, which isn't true. No one says there is a complete player. But Ali Daie as a forward has serious shortcoming for a forward. His finishing was poor IMO. Someone like Gholamhosseiin Mazloomi and even Khalili have much better sense for finishing than him. Rowshan was the best example of a great ball handler and a great finisher. Being a finisher has a mental spiritubal capacity to remain calm. As an example, Ali Daie missed key penalties against SS and his shennanigen against Shays is an example of his temper (which isn't a great example of calmness). Compare Toni in Bayern Munich today, that is a finisher. Even Ali Samerh and Reza Enayati are much better finisher than Ali Daie ( I saw since 1988).

For your second point, Ali Daie can't invite himself to the TM, but Ali Daie knew how to game the system and influence the system. Even today he does. Look at his interview in Navad and see the amount of blind self egotistical pride he expresses, when he says he wants nothing to do in TM but the head coaching job. To you it may come as a desire, to me it is a flase self centerisem. Ali Daie used his influence in TM and manipulated an incompetent, theocratic federation in order to get to the meaningless record of 108 goal scorer or whatever it was in the world. While Branko, Dadkan role were very important in him playin full 90 minutes in the TM, him using different techniques for influencing the system is undeniable.

Even if Branko invited him, he himself isn't blind or stupid, he could see he isn't a 90 minute player. There are many many players that they themselvs announced retirements for the TM (Bargheri, Roberto Carlos,....). Why Ali Daie didn't not do that. Daie playing 90 minutes even in shitty games like Laos or Guam or the team we scored 17 against (in order to get the meaningless record of the most goal scorrer in the world) destroyed the next generation of Iranian forwards, that is a fact, not an opinion.


I have promised myself to support TM and Mr. Daie as its head coach, so I don't want to continue this debate (it undermines the headcoach of our TM at present). So I suggest we don't continue this anymore. Suffice to say, I see things differently from you, but let's hold on to this for the next 6 months, let the TM, make the first round of the qualifications, if you want we can debate this again after that.

Merci for your time Payman Jaan. I always enjoy reading your posts and have a dialogue with you, but right now there are important issues in front of the TM, comapred to Ali Daie's past role in the TM, or his player's abilities.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jaan......lets clarify what is it we are talking about.......
I know, you do not mean daei had no talents,......and I believe, you mostly are concerened that his extended playing time might have hurt the developement of other forwards !!!.............Is that what you are saying ?
As for not haveing all the talents...I must say, almost all players are short in something !
I also , think, Ali Daei, was short in talents in many areas....as his body language, was like he seldom lokked at the ball,or the ground..as his head and chest were always up, and gave that impression, he might stumble on the ball under his foot !,yet that made him pay more attention to what was going on on the air !
one thing about ali daei we should never, ever,understimate..is the fact, that he has scored more goal than any human being in total history !!
that alone, is indication of something right and special !!, and no accident !
If you recall.
1- hassan Roshan, hardly knew how to head the ball.
2- the speed of ali parvin, or his heading ability was non-existant.
3- ghechikhani,also was stiff,and not much of dribbller.
......................
And finaly................Ali Daei's extended playing on the field, IMHO, should never be blamed on him !

I never said Daie didnt' have a talent, the man was a great footballer. But if you read my post, I say since 1988 that I was able to watch him, he wasn't a great player (again since 19998 I stress).

There are very good players and they are Great players. Saeed Maraghecheeyan, Ebraheem Ghasempoor, Nazari, Eskandarian, Iran Solaymani, Hossein Kalani, Ismayel Hajrahimipoor, Ali Jabbari, Gholam Fathabadi were good players.

But Gheelecch overall was a great player, Nasser Hejazi, Parvin or Hassan Rowshan, Ali Karimi.

IMO Daie was never in the same accolade as great players in Iran. He moved to Germany (during the era of reform in Iran) where Europe was much more open toward Iran and there was a better Federation in Place and somehow he got undue credit IMO.

Ali jan,

I dont think ANYONE here thinks daei is a complete player. yes, he does have shortcomings in many areas, such as ball skills and pace. which sort of answers many of ur points up there.

but by god, you cant be serious when you bring up "finishing". are you?
if anything he has shown he was a pretty good finisher.
that's like saying ronaldinho cant control the ball !!!
or Buffon cant catch a ball !!



in fact we have to really search to find a complete player, especially in asia and more pronounced, in Iran.
every player has some strong points and some weak ones as well.
that's why Bagheri's overall high and acceptable scores in many aspects of a player marks him distinct from other Iranian players. coz that makes him rare.


==============

as for the age-old claims that daei's presence didnt allow other forwards to flourish, I'd have to say I didnt expct it from you, ali jan.

this argument doesnt hold much water simply becoz it is NOT the PLAYER who chooses to be called up. you, as a coach, shd know better.
if a coach decides to pick a player then it is the player's duty to accept.
I agree, it is unfortunate to see many talents laid wasted becoz of moronic wrong policies adopted by the coach ( like using daei in meaningless friendlies and weak opponent official games like laos or ... ) when he could have and SHOULD have used the likes of borhani, khatibi, enayati, ...... that blame shd entirely lie on the shoulders of the coach. not the player.

come on, man. I know you cant mean that.

People called him the best player in Iran and blah blah, which isn't true. No one says there is a complete player. But Ali Daie as a forward has serious shortcoming for a forward. His finishing was poor IMO. Someone like Gholamhosseiin Mazloomi and even Khalili have much better sense for finishing than him. Rowshan was the best example of a great ball handler and a great finisher. Being a finisher has a mental spiritubal capacity to remain calm. As an example, Ali Daie missed key penalties against SS and his shennanigen against Shays is an example of his temper (which isn't a great example of calmness). Compare Toni in Bayern Munich today, that is a finisher. Even Ali Samerh and Reza Enayati are much better finisher than Ali Daie ( I saw since 1988).

For your second point, Ali Daie can't invite himself to the TM, but Ali Daie knew how to game the system and influence the system. Even today he does. Look at his interview in Navad and see the amount of blind self egotistical pride he expresses, when he says he wants nothing to do in TM but the head coaching job. To you it may come as a desire, to me it is a flase self centerisem. Ali Daie used his influence in TM and manipulated an incompetent, theocratic federation in order to get to the meaningless record of 108 goal scorer or whatever it was in the world. While Branko, Dadkan role were very important in him playin full 90 minutes in the TM, him using different techniques for influencing the system is undeniable.

Even if Branko invited him, he himself isn't blind or stupid, he could see he isn't a 90 minute player. There are many many players that they themselvs announced retirements for the TM (Bargheri, Roberto Carlos,....). Why Ali Daie didn't not do that. Daie playing 90 minutes even in shitty games like Laos or Guam or the team we scored 17 against (in order to get the meaningless record of the most goal scorrer in the world) destroyed the next generation of Iranian forwards, that is a fact, not an opinion.


I have promised myself to support TM and Mr. Daie as its head coach, so I don't want to continue this debate (it undermines the headcoach of our TM at present). So I suggest we don't continue this anymore. Suffice to say, I see things differently from you, but let's hold on to this for the next 6 months, let the TM, make the first round of the qualifications, if you want we can debate this again after that.

Merci for your time Payman Jaan. I always enjoy reading your posts and have a dialogue with you, but right now there are important issues in front of the TM.

[Doctor DOOM]

Ali jan,

I dont think ANYONE here thinks daei is a complete player. yes, he does have shortcomings in many areas, such as ball skills and pace. which sort of answers many of ur points up there.

but by god, you cant be serious when you bring up "finishing". are you?
if anything he has shown he was a pretty good finisher.
that's like saying ronaldinho cant control the ball !!!
or Buffon cant catch a ball !!



in fact we have to really search to find a complete player, especially in asia and more pronounced, in Iran.
every player has some strong points and some weak ones as well.
that's why Bagheri's overall high and acceptable scores in many aspects of a player marks him distinct from other Iranian players. coz that makes him rare.


==============

as for the age-old claims that daei's presence didnt allow other forwards to flourish, I'd have to say I didnt expct it from you, ali jan.

this argument doesnt hold much water simply becoz it is NOT the PLAYER who chooses to be called up. you, as a coach, shd know better.
if a coach decides to pick a player then it is the player's duty to accept.
I agree, it is unfortunate to see many talents laid wasted becoz of moronic wrong policies adopted by the coach ( like using daei in meaningless friendlies and weak opponent official games like laos or ... ) when he could have and SHOULD have used the likes of borhani, khatibi, enayati, ...... that blame shd entirely lie on the shoulders of the coach. not the player.

come on, man. I know you cant mean that.

[zzgloo]

Gentelmen;
Payman Jaan Goal;
If you like I can bring you text book defenition from footballo coaching classes and show Mr. Daie in most of the catagories was sub par. DD talks about his shooting!!! I am not a statisticians but I persoanlly don't recall any spectacular shots from him (at least 5 or more out of 108 or whateveer goals he scored). Last shooting goal I remember was against Saudi Arabia in Jaddeh for Wc 2002 qaulification on a free kick. After 98 that I was able to watch Daie he was never a super star in the air either. And he was below par in
controling the ball,
Turning with ball
Beating his defender one on one
Speed
Finishing touches
making the runs to create space for his complimentary forward
Controlling a hard pass and bringing the ball under control and make a one touch pass to his team mates.
Bahram Jaan, Take Command and Aerial ability!!! We had a center forwards with had aerial abilites and were much better finisher than Daie. To list three, let's start with Homayoon Behzadi Sar Talayee, Gholamhossein Mazloomi, to a lesse degree Parviza Mazloomi and then Gholam Fathabadi, I can add to this list Nasser Nooriye (but sicne he played for Homa, he never came into the eyes of fans and papers much).
Take command attitude of Daie maybe was good at times, but the same attitude kept a generation of Iranian forwards, like Borhani, Ali Moosavi, Khatibi, Enayati, Ooldai, Akbarpoor, Rajab Zadeh, Samereh, out of the TM. The same attitude alomst cost us Vahid Hashemaian as well. And now people say TM doesn't have a good center forward. Bunch of people that either are Mamoor and getting paid and a bunch that can be emotioanlly manipulated in the game against Syria "scream his name from the stands when the tm doesn't score" while forgetting Ali Daie and Branko both are in big part responsible for this drought we have in center forward position.
Golmohamadi left the TM, so many others left TM as well. But Daie never left TM, had Iran been semi successful in WC 2006, bet you he still would have been around. So please dont' talk about his take command attitude. The same so called "take command" attitude and his connections, is in big part responsible for the current drought in the center forward position.

Ali jaan......lets clarify what is it we are talking about.......
I know, you do not mean daei had no talents,......and I believe, you mostly are concerened that his extended playing time might have hurt the developement of other forwards !!!.............Is that what you are saying ?
As for not haveing all the talents...I must say, almost all players are short in something !
I also , think, Ali Daei, was short in talents in many areas....as his body language, was like he seldom lokked at the ball,or the ground..as his head and chest were always up, and gave that impression, he might stumble on the ball under his foot !,yet that made him pay more attention to what was going on on the air !
one thing about ali daei we should never, ever,understimate..is the fact, that he has scored more goal than any human being in total history !!
that alone, is indication of something right and special !!, and no accident !
If you recall.
1- hassan Roshan, hardly knew how to head the ball.
2- the speed of ali parvin, or his heading ability was non-existant.
3- ghechikhani,also was stiff,and not much of dribbller.
......................
And finaly................Ali Daei's extended playing on the field, IMHO, should never be blamed on him !

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jan, I agree and disagree.

yes, daei in the beginning was a player great in the air and that's it !
but after going to europe, his determination and hunger to learn, to be the best HE COULD be transformed him into another daei.

Daei V1 - excellent heading. good in shooting. sucked in passing. sucked in ball control. didnt do much in freekicks.

Daei V2 - very good in heading. passing improved drastically. free-kicks improved drastically. hell, even his ball carrying wasnt as bad as before. I swear I once or twice saw him dribble a player too . I swear.


and I attribute this overall improvement to his dedication and positive mentality ( borne out of his education level ) that made him learn about his weaknesses and attempt to overcome them.
now, how many players do you see go through such drastic transformations? not many. in fact that is extremely rare.
nowadays what we see from a player is what we'll get for the rest of his playing career, with little bit added here and a bit there. that's all. dorost meegam ya na?

look at our "supposedly best player in recent years", karimi.
what is he doing differently from 5-6 or 8 years back?
the same dribbling. that's it.
he only was forced to work harder and help the defense BECOZ of bayern. and he added that little bit extra to his game. but then again, we dont see him apply that all that much anyway. coz the guy still plays a lazy, indifferent style of football !

Kia. another great player.
apart from the NATURAL progress seen in his style of football, and he has mastered that very well, what NEW things we see in his game? almost nothing.

in fact I'm finding it difficult to come up with a player who had such a palpable improvement & addition of skills ! everyone at best has improved on what they already had. only !

Ali jaan,,,,,, the 1.5 dimension Daei possesed , was the dimensions, we have always historicaly lacked !!1
His take command athitude, and aireal talents, were, and are what we have always needed to be a complete team !
We always , see even Hashemian, with all his talents, get lost in the opponant's back field....because of that take command athitude, and " GHOLDORI ", which daei had !.......he, as you said, was not a complete player, yet he was what we needed and need.
Actualy, Branko believed, even a " Dead " Daei is better than rest of what we can offer !
In my HP, center forward, is the secound most important position on the field after Goal keeping.

Gentelmen;

Payman Jaan Goal;

If you like I can bring you text book defenition from footballo coaching classes and show Mr. Daie in most of the catagories was sub par. DD talks about his shooting!!! I am not a statisticians but I persoanlly don't recall any spectacular shots from him (at least 5 or more out of 108 or whateveer goals he scored). Last shooting goal I remember was against Saudi Arabia in Jaddeh for Wc 2002 qaulification on a free kick. After 98 that I was able to watch Daie he was never a super star in the air either. And he was below par in
controling the ball,
Turning with ball
Beating his defender one on one
Speed
Finishing touches
making the runs to create space for his complimentary forward
Controlling a hard pass and bringing the ball under control and make a one touch pass to his team mates.


Bahram Jaan, Take Command and Aerial ability!!! We had a center forwards with had aerial abilites and were much better finisher than Daie. To list three, let's start with Homayoon Behzadi Sar Talayee, Gholamhossein Mazloomi, to a lesse degree Parviza Mazloomi and then Gholam Fathabadi, I can add to this list Nasser Nooriye (but sicne he played for Homa, he never came into the eyes of fans and papers much).

Take command attitude of Daie maybe was good at times, but the same attitude kept a generation of Iranian forwards, like Borhani, Ali Moosavi, Khatibi, Enayati, Ooldai, Akbarpoor, Rajab Zadeh, Samereh, out of the TM. The same attitude alomst cost us Vahid Hashemaian as well. And now people say TM doesn't have a good center forward. Bunch of people that either are Mamoor and getting paid and a bunch that can be emotioanlly manipulated in the game against Syria "scream his name from the stands when the tm doesn't score" while forgetting Ali Daie and Branko both are in big part responsible for this drought we have in center forward position.

Golmohamadi left the TM, so many others left TM as well. But Daie never left TM, had Iran been semi successful in WC 2006, bet you he still would have been around. So please dont' talk about his take command attitude. The same so called "take command" attitude and his connections, is in big part responsible for the current drought in the center forward position.

[zzgloo]

I totally agree with your comment about it all depends on players a coach has at his disposal. But I think you are way way over estimating Dai'e ability as a football player. Dai'e as a forward (after 98 that I was able to watch him) had one dimension ok 1.5 dimension maybe. Up to 98 he was good in the air. Not great in European standards but very good. He was ok on free kicks as well. But he lacked in many dimensions as a forward. His ball protection was really really weak. His turning with the ball was non-existant. He really lacks speed. I mean he is below par when it comes to speed. Ability to beat his defender in one on one non-existant.
The above assesment I gave from Mr. Daie is after 1998. I only could watch Mr. Daie from the 98 WC qualification against Australia. I can honestly say not a single game since then, I saw him to be a dominant player. I didn't see the 6-2 game against South Korea the game he scored 4 in 1996. That is what I call dominant player. Same way the Abedzadeh was a dominant player in Melborne against Australia. From movies I saw from those days before 98 , Daie was thinner and way faster. But since 98 (that I was able to watch him on TV outside Iran), Daie was never a dominant player. In the game against Australia or all three games in the WC 98 he wasn't a factor and the trend continues until last year.
Bayern bought him and used him only for his aerial abilities. In case where other tactics failed, he was one gun (aerial attack) in their arsenal. That is why he didn't get many games in Bayern. Don't forget Daie and Minavand, didn't even last 6 months in Alshabab and people say UAE league sucks. Whereas players like Majidi, Mobali and Samereh lasted several years in UAE league.
Begheri was different though. I am so surprised to see this attempt to bring Daie as a superb player. He was the first Iranian player in recent years to play in Europe (although before him) Reza Adelkhani played in Germany back in 70s and then came to Iran. But besides that, I think Daie' role and impact in Iranian football is overly exaggerated.
I know, this post my raise feathers, but truth needs to be told, even if it isn't popular. Somebody has to say "Emperor has no cloths on".

Ali jaan,,,,,, the 1.5 dimension Daei possesed , was the dimensions, we have always historicaly lacked !!1
His take command athitude, and aireal talents, were, and are what we have always needed to be a complete team !
We always , see even Hashemian, with all his talents, get lost in the opponant's back field....because of that take command athitude, and " GHOLDORI ", which daei had !.......he, as you said, was not a complete player, yet he was what we needed and need.

Actualy, Branko believed, even a " Dead " Daei is better than rest of what we can offer !
In my HP, center forward, is the secound most important position on the field after Goal keeping.

[Doctor DOOM]

I totally agree with your comment about it all depends on players a coach has at his disposal. But I think you are way way over estimating Dai'e ability as a football player. Dai'e as a forward (after 98 that I was able to watch him) had one dimension ok 1.5 dimension maybe. ...............

Ali jan, I agree and disagree.

yes, daei in the beginning was a player great in the air and that's it !
but after going to europe, his determination and hunger to learn, to be the best HE COULD be transformed him into another daei.

Daei V1 - excellent heading. good in shooting. sucked in passing. sucked in ball control. didnt do much in freekicks.

Daei V2 - very good in heading. passing improved drastically. free-kicks improved drastically. hell, even his ball carrying wasnt as bad as before. I swear I once or twice saw him dribble a player too . I swear.


and I attribute this overall improvement to his dedication and positive mentality ( borne out of his education level ) that made him learn about his weaknesses and attempt to overcome them.
now, how many players do you see go through such drastic transformations? not many. in fact that is extremely rare.
nowadays what we see from a player is what we'll get for the rest of his playing career, with little bit added here and a bit there. that's all. dorost meegam ya na?

look at our "supposedly best player in recent years", karimi.
what is he doing differently from 5-6 or 8 years back?
the same dribbling. that's it.
he only was forced to work harder and help the defense BECOZ of bayern. and he added that little bit extra to his game. but then again, we dont see him apply that all that much anyway. coz the guy still plays a lazy, indifferent style of football !

Kia. another great player.
apart from the NATURAL progress seen in his style of football, and he has mastered that very well, what NEW things we see in his game? almost nothing.

in fact I'm finding it difficult to come up with a player who had such a palpable improvement & addition of skills ! everyone at best has improved on what they already had. only !

[Doctor DOOM]

It is all about the mentality of the coach , whether he is defensive minded or offensive plus what resources he has at his disposal. The likes of Bagheri and Daei are not available all the time.

Recently , Team Melli and Iran in general , lacked proper defensive players and system. Goalkeepers are a well documented problem as well. So, as a fan I would love to see an all-out attacking team , but exposing the back to counter attacks has proved to be a serious problem specially with teams like Syria or most of the Arab teams. They score one goal against the run of the play , and sit on that lead for the rest of the match.

I agree.
but then again, if we have a well-oiled attacking team, even if a team like syria scores early into a game and wants to sit back and defend, a team that attacks well and is productive, will score and score far more.

But this is a common clash of philosophies among coaches all over.
neither is wrong.
it's just some ppl like to build a team on a strong defensive line, secure and reliable. and others believe the best defense is offense.
both work. and both have flaws.


but the only thing that tips the balance in "attack" side is that inherently iranian players like an attacking game tinged with some ball skills and technical/individual flare. our natural style of football is more attacking than a defensive one.
so players feel more comfortable when they fit into a team that flows in that direction.

my other point is the result of that (cursed) move to make our football more defensive. neither the players played comfortably in that system. the formation never suited us and players never really adapted well to that one. but also they were slowly pulled away from their natural style as well.
which ended up with TM being in what we now see: aash-e shole ghalamkaar ! it's neither sweet, nor salty ! and in the end, it's been leaving a bad taste in the mouth .... even in those rare victories !

I mean it is un-natural to force a brazilian team ( not comparing qualitatively, but merely pointing at the nature of football ) play a defensive game. Perreira tried. but that was some abomination that never looked like brazil and was quickly done away with and brazil got back to its nature and basics: attacking football.

neither can we see Italians suddenly displaying an overall attacking football. no. what we see from them is they attack ONLY WHEN they are solid in the back.
and that is very different from brazil attacking becoz they are an attacking team and that's what they do BEST.

[Ali Chicago]

.... what resources he has at his disposal. The likes of Bagheri and Daei are not available all the time.

...

I totally agree with your comment about it all depends on players a coach has at his disposal. But I think you are way way over estimating Dai'e ability as a football player. Dai'e as a forward (after 98 that I was able to watch him) had one dimension ok 1.5 dimension maybe. Up to 98 he was good in the air. Not great in European standards but very good. He was ok on free kicks as well. But he lacked in many dimensions as a forward. His ball protection was really really weak. His turning with the ball was non-existant. He really lacks speed. I mean he is below par when it comes to speed. Ability to beat his defender in one on one non-existant.

The above assesment I gave from Mr. Daie is after 1998. I only could watch Mr. Daie from the 98 WC qualification against Australia. I can honestly say not a single game since then, I saw him to be a dominant player. I didn't see the 6-2 game against South Korea the game he scored 4 in 1996. That is what I call dominant player. Same way the Abedzadeh was a dominant player in Melborne against Australia. From movies I saw from those days before 98 , Daie was thinner and way faster. But since 98 (that I was able to watch him on TV outside Iran), Daie was never a dominant player. In the game against Australia or all three games in the WC 98 he wasn't a factor and the trend continues until last year.

Bayern bought him and used him only for his aerial abilities. In case where other tactics failed, he was one gun (aerial attack) in their arsenal. That is why he didn't get many games in Bayern. Don't forget Daie and Minavand, didn't even last 6 months in Alshabab and people say UAE league sucks. Whereas players like Majidi, Mobali and Samereh lasted several years in UAE league.

Begheri was different though. I am so surprised to see this attempt to bring Daie as a superb player. He was the first Iranian player in recent years to play in Europe (although before him) Reza Adelkhani played in Germany back in 70s and then came to Iran. But besides that, I think Daie' role and impact in Iranian football is overly exaggerated.

I know, this post my raise feathers, but truth needs to be told, even if it isn't popular. Somebody has to say "Emperor has no cloths on".

[maij]

It is all about the mentality of the coach , whether he is defensive minded or offensive plus what resources he has at his disposal. The likes of Bagheri and Daei are not available all the time.

Recently , Team Melli and Iran in general , lacked proper defensive players and system. Goalkeepers are a well documented problem as well. So, as a fan I would love to see an all-out attacking team , but exposing the back to counter attacks has proved to be a serious problem specially with teams like Syria or most of the Arab teams. They score one goal against the run of the play , and sit on that lead for the rest of the match.

I am more convinced now to build a solid defense as a priority , before going into the all attack mode, while Team Melli at the present time , suffers from lacks the qualities of the previous generation.

[Doctor DOOM]

One other factor shd be mentioned though, when we talk about those years.

those were the years TM was as offensive in football as Howard Stern is to a nun. the whole team had an attacking mentality. and the style and formation suited this mentality also. the coach ( MK ) also preferred such offensive attitude and style.
so everything worked perfectly to create such players, give room for their attacking nature.

look at the team:
apart from the GK and a couple of defenders, we had
Khakpoor ( who used to help in set pieces , taking or receiving them . even start offensive moves with long & diagonal balls)
Zarincheh who was lively as hell on the wings
minavand who was Mr. Consistency for quite a few years down the left.
bagheri
estili was highly active and a work-horse both in offense and defense
kia shaping up to be a major force ( after the hic-up start of AC96 )
No need to even go over the great pairing of azizi & daei up front

even the subsequent additions during this period, to the team suited this style: yazdani, pashazadeh, shahroodi, khaziravi, dinmohamadi, mansoorian ... . and they had no choice but to be offensive minded to stay in the team.

when this team took to the field, we KNEW goals are coming. yes, some candidates were the obvious ones like daei, azizi & bagheri. but the rest also had the same mentality and approach.
That team simply reveled and enjoyed running at the oppositions all guns blazing.
they were not held back by the coach or formation or tactics.

so within such a set up, it was easy to let such offensive talents ( like bagheri's ) to blossom. I doubt today, even if bagheri was what he was at 22, would perform that well or do what he did then. in today's TM it is almost impossible, becoz of the half-hearted ( half-arsed is more like it ) attempt to change its nature !!


( it's just too much to bear when we see this team with such mentality and style slowly was ( unsuccessfully ) MUTATED into a defensive one in later years !!!! .... something that goes against our natural style of football !
and we ended up falling in between the stools ! we lost our teeth, and never really became efficient in defending either !!!
( I know who to blame for this anyway. but this thread is not about that total-waste-of-oxygen. goor-e pedarsh o jadd o abaadesh )