Coaching, Iran and TM

[TM-Fan]

I think you will agree with me that money well spent on sport will make a lot of people happy including football fans like you and me. That is not the argument, it is:
a- Whether 2 million dollar coach can improve TM and up to what extent?
b- Whether 2 million dollars should be channeled elsewhere in the system, like youth development or coaching classes?

About your first question, I think the answer is definitely positive. I have two reasons. First look at the best football countries in Asia, countries like Japan, Korea, SA and even Australia. They all hire foreign coaches as they think it works better for them. I don't see why it can work for them and not for us. I also don't think they all are doing the wrong thing. My second reason is the comparison between our own performances during the last two Asian Cups with foreign and Iranian coaches, and still Branko was not even a $1mil foreign coach. Also look how much a decent coach like Ivic improved our TM.

About your second question, I think a country with $80b sales from oil can afford to pay $2m to a her national football coach, and still have the money to spend on youth and football clubs. Of course considering the amount of popularity of football among the people. This is just my own opinion.

[maij]

aaghaa Maij, spending money on shelters, roads, for the poor etc. is a must, no doubt about it. I am definitely not supporting to cut the money from the poor and give it to a foreign coach.

The thing is that people in a country have different needs and life has different aspects. That is why every country allocates budget for entertainment and spends it on cinemas, theaters, parks, etc. If our country had only $2mil money and we wanted to decide whether to spend it for the poor or hire a foreign coach for football, I would agree with you. $2mil for our country is like 3 cents out of everybody's pocket, and I think is well worth it if we can spend it on something that the majority of the people have passion for. There will still be plenty of money to spend for the poor if we really want to.

Just as an sports example, how much money does the government give the useless clubs such as RahAhan and Saba who have absolutely no fans and very little income for just ganging in the IPL? Or as an another example, IR has recently adopted a new policy to spend more on the championship sports to increase the number of medals in the international competitions. They think it is a good advertise for the country. And note that the money is spent for just a few selected athletes and not for the whole country. Why not reduce these budgets and give it to the sports that people like the most?

I think you will agree with me that money well spent on sport will make a lot of people happy including football fans like you and me. That is not the argument, it is:
a- Whether 2 million dollar coach can improve TM and up to what extent?
b- Whether 2 million dollars should be channeled elsewhere in the system, like youth development or coaching classes?

[TM-Fan]

I hate to say it , but Iranian football fans are extremely over demanding and are becoming detached from the reality in Iran......

My friend , do you know how many roads , schools , shelters , houses or clinics can be built in the deprived ares of the country or remote poor villages with this money??

I have been and will be an avid supporter of Team Melli all my life and if this 2 million is self generated by football , then I would not have an issue . But why should the government spent that sort of money so me and you could enjoy watching our beloved team on TV, while this money is much more needed elsewhere for the deprived???

It is not right......

Why should this be think that giving 2 million bucks to a foreigner is

aaghaa Maij, spending money on shelters, roads, for the poor etc. is a must, no doubt about it. I am definitely not supporting to cut the money from the poor and give it to a foreign coach.

The thing is that people in a country have different needs and life has different aspects. That is why every country allocates budget for entertainment and spends it on cinemas, theaters, parks, etc. If our country had only $2mil money and we wanted to decide whether to spend it for the poor or hire a foreign coach for football, I would agree with you. $2mil for our country is like 3 cents out of everybody's pocket, and I think is well worth it if we can spend it on something that the majority of the people have passion for. There will still be plenty of money to spend for the poor if we really want to.

Just as an sports example, how much money does the government give the useless clubs such as RahAhan and Saba who have absolutely no fans and very little income for just ganging in the IPL? Or as an another example, IR has recently adopted a new policy to spend more on the championship sports to increase the number of medals in the international competitions. They think it is a good advertise for the country. And note that the money is spent for just a few selected athletes and not for the whole country. Why not reduce these budgets and give it to the sports that people like the most?

[perspolees]

I dont have much argument about that , Doc, only that if a system is disorganized , such as we have experienced in Iran , then regardless to which method they use (Series or parallel) it makes little impact. Failures will be rife , success will be short lives or occasional.

I guess those few millions went into someone's coffer , ...Tarbiyat Badani ? IFF ? the nice HQ building ? ...I really don't know and I doubt that the system is transparent enough to let the public know.

As for spending 2 million on a top notch coach , I do not think that it will make a huge difference in Team Melli's case. Coaches take time to get a firm foot on the team...they say about 3 years , but that is in a European organized and professional system. With the status of the players and IFF not to mention the meddling of Trabiyat Badani and the parliament , I doubt very much that this 2 millions will have a serious return on investment.

Seriously though....that money is much more needed elsewhere. Despite the fact that money is spent by the government on worthless cases and propaganda , I say two wrongs does not make a right.

I agree
and that is exactly where I come from
if you have a country that lives by laws and logic then chose "parallel "or "series "we will get there..In that setting I will still choose the infrastructural approach then build on that, but you still need that bad of logic and lawful to even think about a "paralel" approach!

but when IRI is ran by thieves and thugs calling a whole nation sagheer without brains that need a valiye faghih to show the right from wrong!!then for one nothing will work!! for two:

if I had to spend a penny that would at least be used later on would still be infrastructural work!
so in both system infrastructural approach stays...

last but not least you cant claim a "parallel" approach in this setting when nothing is done other than just this foreign coach or the other!! point is mute either way you look at it.

[perspolees]

the thing is persi jan wants a SERIES approach to our lacks and needs.
I say we can do a PARALLEL one.

persi jan wants us to first attend and focus on fundamental and infrastructural needs of our football ( stadia, youth programs, development, professionalism, coach training, .... ) and once we get all these right, then attend to the needs of foreign coaches and ... so on.

I say while we attend to the most important infrastructural needs of our football, we might as well get something else also right. that is sustaining a steady input of professional attitude into our national teams through good foreign coaches. hopefully until our own younger coaches, who have been invested in all this while, will slowly show their worth and we can turn to them.
mine is the parallel approach.
and I think zz's also with me on this one.


why I say this is becoz whenever we succeed in any international arena ( more chances of it happening with foreign coaches than vatani ones ), our football gets more buoyant and charged up. energized and positive change can happen easier, faster. at the same time, our other basic needs also will be better attended to.

but if we wait and see if IRI will invest money, time and ppl in our basic needs ( something that with their track record, we all know is an improbability ) we retract more and more into ourselves and fall behind the rest .

yes I agree , mega million salaries wont help us but drain our resources.
but we DONT GET such coahces who charge such amounts anyway.
AT BEST we may get good second rate european coaches like jorge, santini, denizli, luka, ciro, ... who will not charge so much but still add to our football.

my friend for one you are off topic here as this is a subjective sort of philosopical/ logical argument rather than a mere physics/ electronics facts!!

secondly:
where is the alleged cornerstone of this "paralel" argument!? because we lack that mainstay I say the other parallel will not work either, do it or not point is mute...so long that u e lagging in infrastructure u will fail

thirdly:
where is an example of a nation that has seen significant and lasting improvement in their football by just hiring great coaches!!? show me one example so we could at least say we have a living proof rather than just chasing a non existing eutopia!!

last but not least example is this:
you cant use a ferrari on kaveer!!
get roads then get drivers and then get ferrari
parallel work of laying the road and getting the ferrari will not work either because we lack the simple basics!! simple as that

now do I say I am against the likes of luka, vingo!!? u bet not!
I want them in and put them on the ground zero and at least spend that dollar on my infrastructure, i.e youth
for our adult team at this stage alles ist egal!

[perspolees]

About the topic, I believe if a good foreign coach can bring us success, even if it is temporary, even if it is just for a tournament and with only 11 players, and even if it costs us a couple of million dollars a year, we should go for it.

me too but that would be a harry potter story!
for that very same reason dreaming is not reality
a dream coach right now with say 20 mil could sign for 3 years with tm and I would put my money on ab az ab takoon nemeekhore!

[perspolees]

while you well know I dont agree with putting off hiring of good coaches based on a improbable hope that one day in near future, our infrastructure and fundamentals would be strong, ... , I must say I agree with the second part of your post here:




absolutely correct.
even with the notion of having branko at either omid or youth level TM's.


--------------

the same second part that somehow negates your first part's claims, persi jan.
one could well say why even bother with luka or branko or vingo, given that our infrstrctr and basics are lacking and non-existent ( the argument for thinking bringing cood coaches for TM changes almost nothing ! ) based on : .... when doosti, ahmadzadeh and derakhshan could be as useful as branko, luka and vingo , but we'd still keep all those hefty salaries in pockets of IFF
a bit contradictory, no?

it actually does not negate!
getting on with good footwork for the youth IS INFRASTRUCTURE!
they will then grow to understand the likes of hiddink and hopefully play ina lighted stadium on above average pitch on a scheduled time with proper diets, workouts, etc..

put delbuske atop tm with the players that have a lose rootwork u wont see a dorn diff between him and ghalenoei!

[maij]

oh, absolutely the series approach is more sound.
but that needs time. and I added some other remarks to my last post on the need for even relative success to sustain a basic momentum in our football.
and if we put off everything waiting to get the fundamentals right ( highly improbable . it is afterall IRI we're talking about ) it means we fall behind almost every rival we have in asia. let alone the world !
but , after about 10-12 years of severe drought , we'll have a great football that will be reaped. THEORETICALLY, though. remember the IRI factor which negates and refutes any hope of this happening no matter how much time we give them !!


and yes, THEORETICALLY, that money can build many many schools, hospitals, roads, ... in deprived areas. but REALISTICALLY, what do you think would happen?
would that money saved be spent on these things, knowing IRI ?

anyone bothered to find out what happened to Fifa's donations for the WC 06 ?
where did that money go?
how much of it?

what are the chances of international success:
1- a vatani coach at TM?
2- a farangi coach ?
which one has MORE probability of success?
yes, there's no guarantee of either one. very true. but consider everything and tell me, majid jan, which guy will have a BETTER CHANCE of achieving more for us?

so I'd say even if we extract success equal to 1 mill out of a 2 mill coach, we're still better off than not spending that 2 mill and it disappearing somewhere between X, Y, Z and their cousins and uncles !

I dont have much argument about that , Doc, only that if a system is disorganized , such as we have experienced in Iran , then regardless to which method they use (Series or parallel) it makes little impact. Failures will be rife , success will be short lives or occasional.

I guess those few millions went into someone's coffer , ...Tarbiyat Badani ? IFF ? the nice HQ building ? ...I really don't know and I doubt that the system is transparent enough to let the public know.

As for spending 2 million on a top notch coach , I do not think that it will make a huge difference in Team Melli's case. Coaches take time to get a firm foot on the team...they say about 3 years , but that is in a European organized and professional system. With the status of the players and IFF not to mention the meddling of Trabiyat Badani and the parliament , I doubt very much that this 2 millions will have a serious return on investment.

Seriously though....that money is much more needed elsewhere. Despite the fact that money is spent by the government on worthless cases and propaganda , I say two wrongs does not make a right.

[Doctor DOOM]

In both the approaches , there are some positives and negatives. Parallel approach will probably bring certain success , without depending on other factors. That success can not be sustained if the others fail to reach expectation. In Series approach , there is inter-dependency which translates into a better structure , systematic progress and firm fundamentals. In the long run it is the best appraoch.

oh, absolutely the series approach is more sound.
but that needs time. and I added some other remarks to my last post on the need for even relative success to sustain a basic momentum in our football.
and if we put off everything waiting to get the fundamentals right ( highly improbable . it is afterall IRI we're talking about ) it means we fall behind almost every rival we have in asia. let alone the world !
but , after about 10-12 years of severe drought , we'll have a great football that will be reaped. THEORETICALLY, though. remember the IRI factor which negates and refutes any hope of this happening no matter how much time we give them !!


and yes, THEORETICALLY, that money can build many many schools, hospitals, roads, ... in deprived areas. but REALISTICALLY, what do you think would happen?
would that money saved be spent on these things, knowing IRI ?

anyone bothered to find out what happened to Fifa's donations for the WC 06 ?
where did that money go?
how much of it?

what are the chances of international success:
1- a vatani coach at TM?
2- a farangi coach ?
which one has MORE probability of success?
yes, there's no guarantee of either one. very true. but consider everything and tell me, majid jan, which guy will have a BETTER CHANCE of achieving more for us?

so I'd say even if we extract success equal to 1 mill out of a 2 mill coach, we're still better off than not spending that 2 mill and it disappearing somewhere between X, Y, Z and their cousins and uncles !

[maij]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the real solution to improve football in Iran is to improve management and infrastructure.

About the topic, I believe if a good foreign coach can bring us success, even if it is temporary, even if it is just for a tournament and with only 11 players, and even if it costs us a couple of million dollars a year, we should go for it.

As you said, a coach in the TM level cannot improve the level of football in our country, as he can only work with the players probably for about 20-30 days a year. But if a good foreign coach can guide us to even one further level in a major tournament, that is enough justification for hiring him IMO, specially if we consider the level of popularity that football has among our population. A couple of million dollars is not a big amount for a country to spend and make people happy even for one single day.

I hate to say it , but Iranian football fans are extremely over demanding and are becoming detached from the reality in Iran......

My friend , do you know how many roads , schools , shelters , houses or clinics can be built in the deprived ares of the country or remote poor villages with this money??

I have been and will be an avid supporter of Team Melli all my life and if this 2 million is self generated by football , then I would not have an issue . But why should the government spent that sort of money so me and you could enjoy watching our beloved team on TV, while this money is much more needed elsewhere for the deprived???

It is not right......

Why should this be think that giving 2 million bucks to a foreigner is

[maij]

In both the approaches , there are some positives and negatives. Parallel approach will probably bring certain success , without depending on other factors. That success can not be sustained if the others fail to reach expectation. In Series approach , there is inter-dependency which translates into a better structure , systematic progress and firm fundamentals. In the long run it is the best appraoch.

[Doctor DOOM]

Majid jan, this issue of foreign coach has been discussed between me and persi jan for ages now. LOL

and the most simple way I can explain our differences in opinion is this:
in electrical engineering, we have 2 types of circuits.
a series and the other, parallel.

I'm sure everyone is familiar with the series type :
---A----B-----C-----D------E

here, the trend or progress of the current starts and first goes through A, having finished that, it continues to B and ... ( you all know that )
so B cannot be served unless A is attended to and done with. same with C and D and ... .

in Parallel, we have :


........I------ A
........I-------B
------I-------C
........I--------D
........I--------E

here, while A is being served and attended to, B also will be worked on, as well as C and D. SIMULTANEOUSLY.

( I'm sure persi jan will appreciate, being a doc himself, with the similarities of a structure of a nephron's circulation which is in parallel and its difference with peripheral circulatory system, which is in series )


the thing is persi jan wants a SERIES approach to our lacks and needs.
I say we can do a PARALLEL one.

persi jan wants us to first attend and focus on fundamental and infrastructural needs of our football ( stadia, youth programs, development, professionalism, coach training, .... ) and once we get all these right, then attend to the needs of foreign coaches and ... so on.

I say while we attend to the most important infrastructural needs of our football, we might as well get something else also right. that is sustaining a steady input of professional attitude into our national teams through good foreign coaches. hopefully until our own younger coaches, who have been invested in all this while, will slowly show their worth and we can turn to them.
mine is the parallel approach.
and I think zz's also with me on this one.


why I say this is becoz whenever we succeed in any international arena ( more chances of it happening with foreign coaches than vatani ones ), our football gets more buoyant and charged up. energized and positive change can happen easier, faster. at the same time, our other basic needs also will be better attended to.

but if we wait and see if IRI will invest money, time and ppl in our basic needs ( something that with their track record, we all know is an improbability ) we retract more and more into ourselves and fall behind the rest .

yes I agree , mega million salaries wont help us but drain our resources.
but we DONT GET such coahces who charge such amounts anyway.
AT BEST we may get good second rate european coaches like jorge, santini, denizli, luka, ciro, ... who will not charge so much but still add to our football.

[gol_kuchik]

I think the politics in Iran has created an impossible situation of lose lose!

It is ridiculous in my mind to emphasis on "foreignness" of a coach while not considering a lot
of things: without knowning the coach, most people think of a very capable coach like
Fergusen or Lippi. But as soon as a name is filled in the blank, then people realize it
wont be a top tier coach and everyone starts to pick on the coach.

I mean some of our fans are so sophisticated (not) that they consider a $500,000 salary
for a national team coach as too much! Yet noone wants anything less than Murinho!

Top notch coaches, assuming they take the job want:

1-Top $$$$
2-Full authority and control

I dont think Iran federation is ready to give top $$$ nor is it ready to relinguish control over
who the players should be, who the assisstants should be etc.

National team coach IS NOT SUPPOSED TO DEVELOP football in a country. It is only
again with our sophisticated fans, where we want the TM coach to also help with football
program, improve coaches and refs , and with the $250,000 salary also help fix our economic
problems in his free time.

Faced with some of these impossible tasks and demands, we will never get a top notch
coach, because of what I just listed.

Any domestic coach on the other hand will be under fire as soon as they get the job. I mean,
again our sophisticated fans, have a list of people who they are waiting to get the job so
they can shoot them down. No one domestically will every be good enough.

So there, it is a lose lose situation.

[TM-Fan]

I am not a firm believer that Iran can benefit from a mega million dollars top notch European coach at the present situation and even in future when things settle down.
One man can bring a temporary success at a certain span of time , but he cannot overhaul the system by only managing the national team.
The East European coaches . training at youth level and even club levels have not done badly at all and the results are evident. More of these type of affordable coaches should be employed, however , the real sultion is to upgrade a cadre of national coaches. FIFA & AFC coaching course are a plenty and every opportunity should be given to Iranian coaches to attend and develop themselves.
OF course attending courses does not produce great coaches. It is a talent within and like players , coaches who are successful are talented ones with high level of intelligence and mental concentration.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the real solution to improve football in Iran is to improve management and infrastructure.

About the topic, I believe if a good foreign coach can bring us success, even if it is temporary, even if it is just for a tournament and with only 11 players, and even if it costs us a couple of million dollars a year, we should go for it.

As you said, a coach in the TM level cannot improve the level of football in our country, as he can only work with the players probably for about 20-30 days a year. But if a good foreign coach can guide us to even one further level in a major tournament, that is enough justification for hiring him IMO, specially if we consider the level of popularity that football has among our population. A couple of million dollars is not a big amount for a country to spend and make people happy even for one single day.

[maij]

I am not a firm believer that Iran can benefit from a mega million dollars top notch European coach at the present situation and even in future when things settle down.

One man can bring a temporary success at a certain span of time , but he cannot overhaul the system by only managing the national team.

The East European coaches . training at youth level and even club levels have not done badly at all and the results are evident. More of these type of affordable coaches should be employed, however , the real sultion is to upgrade a cadre of national coaches. FIFA & AFC coaching course are a plenty and every opportunity should be given to Iranian coaches to attend and develop themselves.

OF course attending courses does not produce great coaches. It is a talent within and like players , coaches who are successful are talented ones with high level of intelligence and mental concentration.