Foreign or national coach ?!

[maij]

The discussion of foreign coach versus national in Iran will continue unabated for many years to come. As far as PFDC is concerned, I feel that a slight majority tend support the idea of appointing a well known foreign coach to lead Team Melli.

I have not been in favor of a foreign coach in Iran for many reasons. One reason is my firm belief that any country that aspires to progress in football , MUST establish and develop a good foundation of national coaches at club and national level.
Based on this factor alone, I am offering yet another proof that the foreign coaches are NOT necessarily the formula for assured success and national coaches can excel and exceed the performance and results achieved under foreigners. Looking at the Asian representative in FIFA World Cup 2010 and their coaches:

Japan : Takeshi OKADA
Korea Rep. : HUH Jung Moo
Australia : Pim VERBEEK (Dutch)
Korea DPR.: KIM Jong Hun

We find that three out of the 4 Asian teams are managed and coached by nationals. Australia, which has the least of the soccer foundations compared to the others, has historically relied on foreign coaches through the years out of necessity.

The surprise is that these national coaches have achieved a milestone that no foreign coaches have achieved with the Asian teams in the World Cup (exception of WC2002 at home). It is very evident that national coaches have the abilities, what they seriously lack in some countries, like Iran, is the support and support takes many forms.


I rest my case, but the debate is open.

[persianallstars]

simply because a foreign coach wants to implement his thoughts on football culture and his international experience to Iranian football. It's way better to have an experienced domestic coach (England is a good example --> Capello failed) rather than a foreigner who simply doesn't understand the culture and some qualities of the players.

Josef Hickersberger (former Austrian NT headcoach, champion with many clubs) was signed by Bahrain Football Federation because he is familiar with Arab soccer style and he has perfectly adapted himself to Arabian soccer and the players. Unfortunately we do not have such a coach, it was not Daei, it won't be Ghalenoie and Ghotbi...... well get an idea of him.

[xoraster]

Its no point comparing Japanese and Korean coaches to Iranian because

A: Through the years, many great foreign coaches such as Wenger, Hiddink, Advoocat, Zico have worked with Japanese\Korean players\coaches and shared their knowledge. Besides many of their top clubs are coached by foreign coaches.

B. Japan and Korea have extensive and high level coaching programs where they send their coaches abroad, they still use their connection with the likes of Wenger and Zico to send their coaches to different courses, classes around the word. Their plan is to be less dependent on foreign coaches on a long term basis.

c: The foundation of Korean and Japanese national teams have been built by foreign coaches, most of the current Japanese players were developed by Troussier during his time as technical director with their youth teams. K


So, in regard to Iran, what exactly do we have?
Do we professional programs and long term planing in order to educate our coaches?
When a guy like Mansourian walks in and takes over a IPL team without taking a single course.

Are our players at least working with good foreign coaches on club level where they are learning the ABC of football?

At some level, youth, club, Omid or TM level, players need to be exposed to some level of good, modern professional coaching, physio, dietist etc.

If Peyrovani is coaching OMid, Mazloumi Esteghlal and lets say GN Team Melli, then where and when are the players going to be exposed to modern coaching and training?

Also, if coaches such as Mazloumi, GN, MK, Peyrovani, Ghotbi are good enough, then why are Iranian players so behing when it comes to physics, tactics and even technique?
I mean, if the current coaches are good, at least our players should match Korea and Japan in terms of tactical and physical ability.

Right now, Iranian football is truly in the hands of Iranian coaches, from almost every club in IPL and Azadegan to all of our national teams and besides U16 team, we are not seeing and results or developmenst at ANY LEVEL, club or country.

So, the question is not that we need ONE foreign coach for TM but like Korea and Japan, we need over 50-100 foreign coaches at all level, youth, omid, physio, analyzer, goalkeeper coaxhes sperad acroos teams in IPL and Azadegan, their youth teams and Omid teams.

[maij]

Its no point comparing Japanese and Korean coaches to Iranian because

A: Through the years, many great foreign coaches such as Wenger, Hiddink, Advoocat, Zico......................................

What I can summarize from your thoughts is that a country MUST have a systematic development for local coaches . is that right ?

If it is , then I agree 110%.

Now , let us look at some facts.

AFC and FIFA have regular coaches training seminars , workshops and camps. Many Iranian coaches have actually participated in them. The last one that was held in Tehran , was conducted by Erich Rutemöller , who became a coach in Team Melli at a later stage. Iran has been sending coaches for training since the seventies.

In these courses , the curriculum is standard for all nationalities. Although coaching certificate is essential , such courses does not prepare a coach for excellence or makes the attendee a distinguished coach. This is up to the individual's talent.


To have a productive foreign coach , who can achieve success , championship and deliver, the grounds must be set solid. A foreign TM coach , does not have the time , the capability or the resources to go to each club and teach/train the TM players on his tactics . Furthermore , a foreign TM coaches DOES NOT teach skills like how to dribble like Messi or be a goalkeeper like Buffon . His task is limited to tactics and that in itself is another long discussion.

Some foreign coaches succeed , some fail miserably. There is no set formula or text book for such. There are however , varying circumstances and as far as I am concerned, Iran at this stage , is not ready foe a foreign coach.
Regardless .....I can compare Iran to Korea , Japan , Maldives and anywhere you like when saying that a Local coach , who has been nourished and developed and most essentially , has the required skills , CAN match or exceed a foreign coach achievements.

[xoraster]

What I can summarize from your thoughts is that a country MUST have a systematic development for local coaches . is that right ?

If it is , then I agree 110%.

Now , let us look at some facts.

AFC and FIFA have regular coaches training seminars , workshops and camps. Many Iranian coaches have actually participated in them. The last one that was held in Tehran , was conducted by Erich Rutemöller , who became a coach in Team Melli at a later stage. Iran has been sending coaches for training since the seventies.

In these courses , the curriculum is standard for all nationalities. Although coaching certificate is essential , such courses does not prepare a coach for excellence or makes the attendee a distinguished coach. This is up to the individual's talent.


To have a productive foreign coach , who can achieve success , championship and deliver, the grounds must be set solid. A foreign TM coach , does not have the time , the capability or the resources to go to each club and teach/train the TM players on his tactics . Furthermore , a foreign TM coaches DOES NOT teach skills like how to dribble like Messi or be a goalkeeper like Buffon . His task is limited to tactics and that in itself is another long discussion.

Some foreign coaches succeed , some fail miserably. There is no set formula or text book for such. There are however , varying circumstances and as far as I am concerned, Iran at this stage , is not ready foe a foreign coach.
Regardless .....I can compare Iran to Korea , Japan , Maldives and anywhere you like when saying that a Local coach , who has been nourished and developed and most essentially , has the required skills , CAN match or exceed a foreign coach achievements.

I am not only talking about the AFC\FIFA workshops because most of the time, thats what they are, plain workshops.

Many countries have made coqaching similar to getting a university degree and even made it as a university course.


Its a little bit like saying well, Iran has coaching classes, so does Italy so I guess there is no diference.

Or it would be like Hungary saying, look at Germany, Holland and Spain, doing well with local coaches in the WC, I guess that means that we dont need foreign coaches.


I also support Iranian coaches and in order ti improve, it is imperative that Iranian coaches to improve because we cannot only rely on foreign coaches.

BUT:
as long as the system is 100% corrupt and peole such as MK (SAIPA) and Ahmadzadeh (Peykan) get their jobbs because they know the president and a un educated player like Mansourian just sits on an IPL bench, one cannot support this characters.

I support hard working Iranian coaches such as Alidoosti or even Ebrahimzadeh who has proven that he can get result even outside of Iran.

But I acannot support people such as Mansurian, Ziaei, MK because they are Iranian.

As I said, if you look at football in Korea, Japan and Saudi, you see that there are over 50-100 foreign coaches (assistants, physios, goalkepper coaches), from U16 teams of clubs such as Al Hilal, to main clubs, Omid teams etc, youth developers, advisors to FA, technical directors etc.

In Iran, maybe we have 5-6 foreign coaches over all, in all categories. And people STILL make a bid deal out of it, as if every single category in Iran is dominated by foreign coaches.

Again, the issue is not about having ONE foreign coach but rather importing over 50-100 good coaches, youth coaches, talent developers, asst coaches, physios, dietists, analyzers and having them work next to 300-400 Iranian coaches.

At the same time, implementing good courses for young coaches while getting rid of the same old boring names such az Yavari, korkebandi, MK, Ahmadzadeh, Karimi.

For now, these coaches have never either played or coaches in a fully professional environment and thus one cannot expect professional end result from them.

[Doctor DOOM]

personally, I'd love to see an iranian coach gain glory and trophies for us. but what's important is the PERFORMANCE only. as many say, it is not about the nationality of the coach, so much as his competence & capabilities.

the only thing that goes against vatani guys is that we have so few vatani coaches who satisfy the above criteria, so chances of you getting that criteria with the foreign ones are higher.

I agree with xoroaster's first post.
the reason foriegners ( the few capable ones, not all of them) dont fare well is that we want success too quick, too cheap, with little effort and as little infrastructure as possible.
that's making it almost impossible for anyone to succeed!
so the problem is OUR OWN outlook and culture, before anything else. as they say, "calibremoon balast" or in other words "kheili goshadim"

[zzgloo]

After watching the recent world cup........I am convinced, the single most important short coming in our football........is not IFF,nor is it IR,nor is etc,etc...

The single most important deficiency is " The Domestic/Local coaching ".!!!

The real job of any coach, is " TEACHING " !!!!

the player who changes three to four teams, should normaly get experinced from different style teachings .



...................................

1-Why our players , from youth to adults,do not develope to a better player?

2-Why our players can not shoot ? ( In general)

3-Why our players can not head the ball ?( In general )

4-Why our players can not control the ball ?

5-Why our players,seem to be hard to coach ? and seem to repeat thier past mistakes ?

6-Why our player's physic do not improve ?

7-why our players have no composure ?

8-Why our players' football psycology do not improve ?

9-why so many talents get waisted before giving fruits ?

10-Why is so hard to stablish playing organized, ( like japaneas or South Koreans ) ?

11-Why our players make so many wrong decisions on the field ?

Why ?, Why ? why ?..............................The answer to these questions do not corespond to the IFF,or IR, or system......
.................................................. ..................................................

The answer, is not with uneducated,academic or football,coaching ,,The answer, is with a new generation, of Educated individuals, such as : vahid Hashemian., whom have had coacing Aspiration, and desire to take coaching classes, and come to coach in IRAN, with a back ground of proffesional playing in Europe,and working under different styles of proffesional coachings ! .......

.................................................. .................................................. .

Untill that time.....we have no choice, but to hire forign coaches who can adapt to our system,....( Eastern Europeans perhaps )!,as our currant coaching system of a carocel of changing musical chaires among small number of domestic coaches,will not add any knowledge to thier uneducated back ground.




.

[Keshwardoost]

Agreed with Majii,

An idea:Why not a combination :whatta:

Our Iranian Coaches would benefit of it and it would be easier for the foregin one to blend in and communicate..

Problem is that Iranian coaches (except Daei) (Ghotbi?)refuses to work with foregin coaches as assistants to themselves, and most foregin coaches that wants to be head coach brings their own assistant and so on..

But theoretically I would like the idea of a Iranian Headcoach/Foregin assistant or Foregin Headcoach/Iranian assistant..
They should offcource have to know eachother before they do teamwork though or else it will be alot of problems.. So really the only ones that know anybody outside iran/arabestan is Daei and Ghotbi (?)


# Our single and only problem is: SOLID DEFENCE OVER 90 MINUTES + ADDED TIME
- Today its to much "Hawaii - soccer on the beech Defence" in almost every game..

[toofan]

wont differ much.the system is wrong.

[Nokhodi]

South Korea and Japan both had coaches who had already been the head coach at some other time and fired. Do you think any of us, or our fans, media and players would accept a failed coach to come and head the national team? Do you know what would happen in 10 years if Daei became head coach again, or GN, or MK?

Also sort of off topic, but does anyone else see the massive similarities in football culture between Iran and England? Impatient fans, Poor showings in important games, over hyped national teams...

[Hadi]

at this point it doesnt really matter who is Iran's coach.

[maij]

I am not only talking about the AFC\FIFA workshops because most of the time, thats what they are, plain workshops.

Many countries have made coqaching similar to getting a university degree and even made it as a university course. .

Give me a real life example of the Soccer universities. All my life , I have never heard of such thing as Soccer University Degree , I am not saying it does not exist. But since you know about it , then let us know.




Its a little bit like saying well, Iran has coaching classes, so does Italy so I guess there is no diference.

Or it would be like Hungary saying, look at Germany, Holland and Spain, doing well with local coaches in the WC, I guess that means that we dont need foreign coaches.

I don't think I have said anything like that, but regardless....

Football is performing art. Singers , Artists , footballers , athletes need basic training , but talents CANNOT BE TAUGHT. You can have a thousand university in the world , it does not guarantee producing mass players like Messi or Christiano Ronaldo are produce coaches such as Wenger or Mourinho. If you do not understand this concept or believe in it , there is not much point in taking this discussion any further.

But just one point to disprove your argument about the foreign element. How did Iraq , a warn torn country which has not played a single match in its own soil for decades , managed to win the Asian Cup 2007 while the Might and the billionaires of Saudi Arabia, Korea, Japan and Australia failed to do that ?


Have you been to Africa ? Have you seen the way they organize football there ? it is so chaotic to a degree which makes Iran looks pretty civilized and good in organization....And yet the Africans produce world class players at a remarkable rate !




I also support Iranian coaches and in order ti improve, it is imperative that Iranian coaches to improve because we cannot only rely on foreign coaches.

BUT:
as long as the system is 100% corrupt and peole such as MK (SAIPA) and Ahmadzadeh (Peykan) get their jobbs because they know the president and a un educated player like Mansourian just sits on an IPL bench, one cannot support this characters.

I support hard working Iranian coaches such as Alidoosti or even Ebrahimzadeh who has proven that he can get result even outside of Iran.

But I acannot support people such as Mansurian, Ziaei, MK because they are Iranian.

In one hand , you are telling me that the system in Iran is 100% corrupt ( which I think is a bit excessive and don't agree with you) , however , you expect foreign coaches to work in this corrupt system and deliver results !!!

How can that be ?

Isn't that a contradictory remark? or do you think that we must ONLY have special breed of foreign coaches who can gel well with a corrupt system to be brought to the country and expect them to deliver?





As I said, if you look at football in Korea, Japan and Saudi, you see that there are over 50-100 foreign coaches (assistants, physios, goalkepper coaches), from U16 teams of clubs such as Al Hilal, to main clubs, Omid teams etc, youth developers, advisors to FA, technical directors etc.

In Iran, maybe we have 5-6 foreign coaches over all, in all categories. And people STILL make a bid deal out of it, as if every single category in Iran is dominated by foreign coaches.

Again, the issue is not about having ONE foreign coach but rather importing over 50-100 good coaches, youth coaches, talent developers, asst coaches, physios, dietists, analyzers and having them work next to 300-400 Iranian coaches.

At the same time, implementing good courses for young coaches while getting rid of the same old boring names such az Yavari, korkebandi, MK, Ahmadzadeh, Karimi.

For now, these coaches have never either played or coaches in a fully professional environment and thus one cannot expect professional end result from them.

In your previous post , you did not want to compare Iran with Korea, but now you are comparing them. ..OK

In Korea and Japan , there is a great wealth from private enterprise that supports sport and football. Giant industries that rule the world are behind them as none of these clubs are supported by tax payers money.

In Saudi Arabia a large chunk of the huge wealth from oil goes into the coffers of kings and princes who in turn channel some of it towards football. It is excessive wealth and it is also corrupt. Same thing applies to most of the Persian Gulf countries.

You cannot expect the government in Iran which own 99% of the sport clubs to channel the much needed money for the country and the economy so that people like you and me sit in front of the TV to say Bah ..bah..bah whenever Karimi dribbles a few Arab players !!!!

The bigger question remains.....

Why should Iran , under huge economical and political isolation , spend million on foreign coaches?

People do not live and die for football....there are other priorities in life ......

[maij]

South Korea and Japan both had coaches who had already been the head coach at some other time and fired. Do you think any of us, or our fans, media and players would accept a failed coach to come and head the national team? Do you know what would happen in 10 years if Daei became head coach again, or GN, or MK?

Also sort of off topic, but does anyone else see the massive similarities in football culture between Iran and England? Impatient fans, Poor showings in important games, over hyped national teams...


Right on ....... and your comparison of England and Iran is NOT off topic at all, I believe culture it is the root of the problem. The English , when it comes to football , are full of self-belief and over - confidence to a degree of arrogance for their national team.

With all those so World Class players , a league that is exemplary and arguably the best in the world , and the riches of Capello , apparently did not reap its fruit....surprise ..surprise.

Is it something to do with the culture ??? maybe ...

Compare that to our situation , I think that the current Persian culture is NOT very helpful towards the progress of football because of :

1- Over expectation.
2- Arrogance in feeling of supremacy against the others.
3- Detachment from reality.
4- Self endearing and claims of supreme knowledge.
5- Ruthless criticism.
6- Poor work ethics (lack of true professionalism).

Iran's football has got nothing special compared to the rest. All this hype about talented footballers and the right to be there at the top ( as if it was a divine right from birth) is nothing but a myth. In football ., you need to excel to reach the top. In fact that applies to any sport. Iranians are as talented as the system they are brought up with and CAN become a power in football World if they organize , apply themselves , work hard and excel. It is NOT a birth right , however.

Look at Basketball , wrestling , Taekwando and other Martial Arts . Yes , it is possible to reach such level.....but not by dreaming and talk alone.

BTW: Is anyone is as puzzled as me why Iranians excel in sports that beat up people ?:D:D

[zzgloo]

Also sort of off topic, but does anyone else see the massive similarities in football culture between Iran and England? Impatient fans, Poor showings in important games, over hyped national teams...

Another similarity, is the what " Beckenbauer,called on his criticism of English football ", The Kick & Rush ,.....the style of football based on , rushing from the sides, and crosses toward the goal...., which is way out of date, compare to , today's, Triangular/ Dimond, short/fast ,passing advancements.











.

[maij]

This is where culture makes such a huge difference in success of football. Read the following.


After an unsuccessful spell with Espanyol in 2009, Nakamura returned to hometown J-League side Yokohama F Marinos ahead of the 2010 season and Takeshi Okada (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/manager?id=138) took the difficult pre-World Cup decision to relegate Nakamura to Japan's bench, with the attack instead built around emerging star Keisuke Honda (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/90718).


When asked by Japanese media about his next match for the Blue Samurai, Nakamura said: "There won't be one for me. I'm through."
Nakamura made one substitute appearance at the World Cup, in Japan's 1-0 loss to the Netherlands in the group stage. Of his demotion from the first XI, he told reporters earlier this week: "I didn't really want to talk about it up until now because I knew that's all people would ask me about. I felt bad about not speaking all this time, but it wasn't easy for me.



"It's a shame I couldn't do anything on the pitch, but I learned a lot. I have to accept the fact that I wasn't good enough. But I don't think my time has been wasted. This is life in soccer."

[maij]

^^^^^^

Arguably one the most celebrated Japanese footballer of the modern time with a hero status , humbly accepts that he is not good enough and accepts the National coach's decision to bench him.

Imagine if it was an Iranian player ? What would have been his reaction if the coach benched him or did not select him for the squad ?

[xoraster]

Give me a real life example of the Soccer universities. All my life , I have never heard of such thing as Soccer University Degree , I am not saying it does not exist. But since you know about it , then let us know.




I don't think I have said anything like that, but regardless....

Football is performing art. Singers , Artists , footballers , athletes need basic training , but talents CANNOT BE TAUGHT. You can have a thousand university in the world , it does not guarantee producing mass players like Messi or Christiano Ronaldo are produce coaches such as Wenger or Mourinho. If you do not understand this concept or believe in it , there is not much point in taking this discussion any further.

But just one point to disprove your argument about the foreign element. How did Iraq , a warn torn country which has not played a single match in its own soil for decades , managed to win the Asian Cup 2007 while the Might and the billionaires of Saudi Arabia, Korea, Japan and Australia failed to do that ?


Have you been to Africa ? Have you seen the way they organize football there ? it is so chaotic to a degree which makes Iran looks pretty civilized and good in organization....And yet the Africans produce world class players at a remarkable rate !




In one hand , you are telling me that the system in Iran is 100% corrupt ( which I think is a bit excessive and don't agree with you) , however , you expect foreign coaches to work in this corrupt system and deliver results !!!

How can that be ?

Isn't that a contradictory remark? or do you think that we must ONLY have special breed of foreign coaches who can gel well with a corrupt system to be brought to the country and expect them to deliver?





In your previous post , you did not want to compare Iran with Korea, but now you are comparing them. ..OK

In Korea and Japan , there is a great wealth from private enterprise that supports sport and football. Giant industries that rule the world are behind them as none of these clubs are supported by tax payers money.

In Saudi Arabia a large chunk of the huge wealth from oil goes into the coffers of kings and princes who in turn channel some of it towards football. It is excessive wealth and it is also corrupt. Same thing applies to most of the Persian Gulf countries.

You cannot expect the government in Iran which own 99% of the sport clubs to channel the much needed money for the country and the economy so that people like you and me sit in front of the TV to say Bah ..bah..bah whenever Karimi dribbles a few Arab players !!!!

The bigger question remains.....

Why should Iran , under huge economical and political isolation , spend million on foreign coaches?

People do not live and die for football....there are other priorities in life ......





In regards to coaching and universities, well, you have the Swedish FF Elite Manager Course in Örebro University for one.

Check it out.

That amongst others explains why a small country like Sweden keeps producing good coaches and players.

With all due respect, did you thought that coaches in Sweden get thir jobbs because they know this guy or that guy?
Nothing personal, but if you dont even know the amount of science and hard work it takes for someone to graduate from the Swedish, Argentinian, Portuguese, Brazilian, Italians FA's with a coaching degree, then you should try to gather some information. Then you understand the difference in knowledge that these coaches have.

Its not like Iran where MK can call his buddy Mr President and get the TM jobb or a top clubb jobb in a second.

In reagrds to your other pints, I have no answer, your arguements are all over the place. You have decided, like Ahmadenejad and Aliabadi that no foreign coaches should work in Iran and thats it.

Like I said, your arguement is too flawed and its based on emotions.

What are you saying: We never get a clear answer
Are you saying that
A:we should not waste money on foreign coaches? And how does that relate to the high salaries of uneducated domestic coaches such as Mazloomi, Ahmadzadeh, Karimi, Kazemi Ziaei etc?
B. Are you saying that foreign coaches are not good enough?
C. Are you saying that Iranian coaches are as good as other coaches around the world and that Iranian football does not need coaches, ideas and influences around the world?
D. Are you saying that because Japan and Korea had good WC with domestic coaches that we should try that rout to (although it seems that doemstic coaches cannot even guide us to WC for us to find out)

But at least, I pointed out the fact that many countries have introduced university courses, Japan, Korea, Sweden, Brazil and many more.

Anyway for now, Iranian football is as I pointed out in the hands of Iranian coaches, from every youth level to 99% of all professional and semi professinal clubs.

So people who support Iranian coaches should atleast be pleased, its not that Iranian football is overcrowded with foreign coaches.

And I guess, the results speak for themsleves.

[maij]

What are you saying: We never get a clear answer
Are you saying that
A.


I am saying , you are wasting my precious time.

[persianallstars]

Imagine if it was an Iranian player ? What would have been his reaction if the coach benched him or did not select him for the squad ?

he would have run to the media! Criticizing the coach, criticizing training sessions, criticizing everything and of course giving an advice to the coach for the upcoming match...

[xoraster]

I am saying , you are wasting my precious time.



Fair enough,


Shame I could not get a response but I guess there is none.

At least, I thought you a thing or two about international football. Coaching classes etc.

Maybe one day, you can teach us something as well, besides advertising for Mayeli Kohan, Ahmadzadeh and company.

My pleasure.

[maij]

Fair enough,


Shame I could not get a response but I guess there is none.


Au contraire , I have ample response but I seriously can’t be bothered providing it for someone who lacks respect and does not value others , specially the type who imagines that he knows much better than the guy next to him , without even knowing who he is.



At least, I thought you a thing or two about international football. Coaching classes etc.

I guess you missed the word "Know" somewhere. If that is what you mean , then yes I do know a few things about it , but NOT to the degree that makes me an expert. I have always knew and appreciated my limitation , unlike many out here who are experts in all footballing affairs!




Maybe one day, you can teach us something as well, besides advertising for Mayeli Kohan, Ahmadzadeh and company.

My pleasure.

As a matter of fact , I am a professional instructor , facilitator and teacher and my major is "Human Factors and Limitations" . If you are looking for football education , then you are looking at the wrong person..... I only give personal opinion in football and discuss issues as a fan. I do not claim professional knowledge.

As for Advertising for Mayelikohan , (FYI : a character whom I never liked) If I do that , I do it because he is a Persian and Iranian coach. For your Information this board is called "Persian Football" , and our mission is to support and promote Iranian players and coaches. I don't know .....perhaps you missed this fact and thought that we have to promote European or Swedish football . Maybe you mistaken PFDC with this site (http://svenskfotboll.se/in-english/) or maybe this one. (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sweden-national-football-team/107782469245312)

[maij]

he would have run to the media! Criticizing the coach, criticizing training sessions, criticizing everything and of course giving an advice to the coach for the upcoming match...

Yep...that is exactly what he would do ...he will add some spice by saying "I will reveal it all soon !!!"

Reveal what ....a CIA plot ???:D

[xoraster]

Au contraire , I have ample response but I seriously can’t be bothered providing it for someone who lacks respect and does not value others , specially the type who imagines that he knows much better than the guy next to him , without even knowing who he is.



I guess you missed the word "Know" somewhere. If that is what you mean , then yes I do know a few things about it , but NOT to the degree that makes me an expert. I have always knew and appreciated my limitation , unlike many out here who are experts in all footballing affairs!




As a matter of fact , I am a professional instructor , facilitator and teacher and my major is "Human Factors and Limitations" . If you are looking for football education , then you are looking at the wrong person..... I only give personal opinion in football and discuss issues as a fan. I do not claim professional knowledge.

As for Advertising for Mayelikohan , (FYI : a character whom I never liked) If I do that , I do it because he is a Persian and Iranian coach. For your Information this board is called "Persian Football" , and our mission is to support and promote Iranian players and coaches. I don't know .....perhaps you missed this fact and thought that we have to promote European or Swedish football . Maybe you mistaken PFDC with this site (http://svenskfotboll.se/in-english/) or maybe this one. (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sweden-national-football-team/107782469245312)


Whats the point to open a thread about domestic and foreign coaches?

First person who comes along with some fact about foreign coaches and other system is told to go to another site because this is persian football?

Does anyone else se any logic in this?

Also, as a moderator, this is very disrespecful and frankly just weak. A weak way of argueing and promoting your own cause.

If you cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If cant cant handle a mature and passionate discussion (with facts as the basis of the arguement and no personal insults) then dont open any threads.

[maij]

Whats the point to open a thread about domestic and foreign coaches?

First person who comes along with some fact about foreign coaches and other system is told to go to another site because this is persian football?

Does anyone else se any logic in this?

Also, as a moderator, this is very disrespecful and frankly just weak. A weak way of argueing and promoting your own cause.

If you cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If cant cant handle a mature and passionate discussion (with facts as the basis of the arguement and no personal insults) then dont open any threads.


Don waste anymore of my time. I have already given you more than you deserve.

[xoraster]

Don waste anymore of my time. I have already given you more than you deserve.


Go and learn a thing or two about other FA's, institutions, coaching classes and then open a thread.

Its always good to learn a thing or two before having an opinion.
Opening a thread is one thing, maintaining an informed dialogue is something else.

Now go and waste your "precious" time on something else.

[Doctor DOOM]

to take this away from becoming more personal, ...
lets be honst with ourselves and aside from club loyalties or inner desires or ..., and just cold, hard facts; of all the vatani coaches we've seen so far, how many of them would be fit to compete with teams like korea, japan, australia, ... etc ?

at the moment, even our most decorated coach, GN is suspect! and you cant firmly claim he will prevail.
- daei proved he wasnt ready either and he may not be for another few years.
- ghotbi is even worse than these two.
- Dr. Z? hasnt been exactly on fire with his series of club appointments.
- mazloomi hasnt proven himself internationally
- MK ,although he'd have been fine for the 3 remaining games where we needed attacking and forward-looking football, as a long term prospect is not suitable as his tactics are rather limited and monotonous.

the only name that comes to mind is Jalali, who did very well with foolad 2 seasons back, elevating the team with no stars or big names to 6th or 7th and then this season, saving them from relegation (no thanks to luka) to the 10th position (in second half of the season, foolad was the 2nd best team after sepahan in gathering points)

but he doesnt get high profile club jobs to prove himself (the one time he had such a club, he made them champs though. Pass), so we dont know how he'd behave with a bunch of prima-donnas and stars.

so I think it is safe to say at the moment we just dont have quality vatani coaches who could extract the maximum potential from our lads.
so why are we arguing for or against someone who doesnt yet exist?

[zzgloo]

All coaches in IRAN are under qualified !

They lack elemantary knowledge to improve players abilities.....

No player in IRAN has improved its playing abilities since its youth....they all play with same skills as what they came to league with.....there has been far too many waisted talents,and they are all the fault of domestic coaches .

We should wait for likes of mahdavikia, and hashemian to start a new generation of coaches in IRAN.









.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

depends at which level
Club level, Foreign coaches.
NT level, Iranian coaches.

The job of the two are different. At NT level the coach doesnt have to teach anything to players nor can he, they should have learned everything at club level.
The NT coach selects the best team he can and has to put them in a harmony with a suitable team strategy. This task can be best fullfilled with a domestic coach.

If we would have the right fundamentals in our players developments, QN would have won the AC2007 and Ali Daei would have qualified to WC2010.

[faraz]

I think the decision is far too simple - Iran does not have the privelege of choosing from a vast number of experienced and tactically sound managers or coaches.

We must look elsewhere, and we must pay a pretty penny for it.

[maij]

I don’t believe that Iranian coaches are under-qualified nor they are handicapped in a way that prevents them from performing as good as the rest of other nationalities. No one is questioning the significance of foreign expertise when there is a requirement, or dismiss it outright but haphazardly believing in foreign coaches as the savior of Iran’s football is nothing other than a wishful thinking and a fairy tale. No one, up to now has proved and brought up any evidence that foreign coaches can make a big impact in Iran. All I hear is self-made theories and viewpoints not backed by any data , proof or evidence.

The catalyst for my article was the success of local coaches of 3 out of 4 teams in Asia in the current WC. No theories, no myths, no wishful thinking …just facts that happened. My message is simple. If a Korean or a Japanese coach has managed to reach this standard, then Iran football, which is much more experienced than those two in terms of history, can and should provide the same level of competence.

We talk about “under-qualified “ but we fail to define it.
We speak about all Iranian coaches as one!
There is no distinguishing between the good, the average or the bad like everywhere else in the World. All Iranian coaches are poor, Are all Brazilin coaches excellent? What about the English? Are they all good ? If so, …how come no Englishman since Alf Ramsey in 1966 won a World Cup for England?

There is no where in the world where all professionals perform to the same standard and have the same skills.

Notwithstanding a persons profession and knowledge in a subject, when this person judges or analyses the capability of another professional, surely he needs to work closely with the man and the subject , monitor him , audit his process , question and test him. There are various tools to asses a person’s performance. Which tools have you used to determine that the Iranian coaches are NO GOOD? Surely that is an arbitrarily claim.

The other point that I really need to highlight , is the a tendency to confuse the whole issue with coaching , effect of a coach on the team performance and the responsibilities as partly highlighted by Amoo.

In Team Melli , Ghalenoei was not responsible to teach Golmo or Mobali how to shoot a penalty nor is it was his responsibility to show Aghili how to mark the opponents striker. The coach assumes that these players have the basic knowledge and his selection (hopefully) was based on these understandings. When National Team gathers for a training camp, it is all tactical stuff. I have been around numerous National teams’ camps and particularly Team Melli.

The failure of Iranian football to excel is NOT simply because our coaches are NOT good and we need foreign coaches. That is too raw of an idea. The coach has been and always will be the easiest targets in case of failure. This is Not an Iranian exclusive either. Wise men say that football is a collective sport and a coach is one small part of the whole equation. Responsibilities are shared , but coaches are normally the sitting ducks.

Right … so , Iranian coaches are poor and lack the basic knowledge….So, what was the name of that foreign coach of Iran national under-17 football team , which won the AFC Asian championship in Tashkent ? Or the name of Sepahan coach who won the league?

[maij]

It seems that the UAE league is not going to have any Iranian players this season. This is the first season of the UAE , since it re-opened its league for foreigners , with no Iranian participation.

The significance of this event should not go unnoticed and it is related to the subject matter. This is the lowest that Iran football has reached and another proof that the weakness of a football is much more comprehensive and broad and not confined to the supposedly weak domestic coaches. The players are under-performing and aging. Lack of professional attitude has played an important role in Iran;s football woes.

[zzgloo]

It seems that the UAE league is not going to have any Iranian players this season. This is the first season of the UAE , since it re-opened its league for foreigners , with no Iranian participation.

The significance of this event should not go unnoticed and it is related to the subject matter. This is the lowest that Iran football has reached and another proof that the weakness of a football is much more comprehensive and broad and not confined to the supposedly weak domestic coaches. The players are under-performing and aging. Lack of professional attitude has played an important role in Iran;s football woes.


That is indeed very significant.....but defently not surprizing, nor unfair.....

1-The Branko Era was a myth..based on carefuly chosen freindly opponanats.....and over exajurated FIFA rating.........
that caused,superficial teams to go with the hopla, and hire so many Iranian players..whom realy would not have been hired otherwise....
The Hopal was so big, even it fooled big teams,such as bayern Munich....twice !!!!.......
All our European legioners,were sub-par, and desparatly hanging on to thier post....just to improve thier football, just to save more of that Euro,and exchange with Tooman !!!!...............Our European legioners played football, as if they work in bank, and just punched in , and punched out.....,and begged to stay....

2-The system of poletics, and demoralazation of masses....has also something to do with this.

.................................................. ............................................

More important than, foreign coach for TM.................we need foreign coach for our clubs.....as clubs ,not only do not produce enough talents, but also, they waist them.................the domestic couches have nothing to teach...nor there is any chance for them to improve thier coaching !....as thier jobs, are uncontested, within a fake league....with fake financing.....
for a fake rating !!

All these have caused us, to get behind South Korea,and japan.........

We Need forign Club coaches......new poletcial system...........

TM coach is secoundary !

[maij]

I guess your are being a bit too severe and hyper critical of local coaches, Bahram jan. I would like to debate with you this issue as I find it quite important , interesting and possibly there is a solution in what we both , or other members , suggests in this matter.

The first point is that , no third world country including the rich Arab countries of the Gulf , can afford to host a large number of foreigners to coach their football teams. It has never happened and I seriously doubt that it will happen in my lifetime. It is a simple matter of economics.

So...a country such as Iran HAS NO CHOICE but to depend on their national coaches at all levels from school to pas koocheh , to youth and all the way up to senior levels.


Coaching , like playing football , singing is a performing art turned into profession. It is "Skill Based profession". Even if you send 1 million coaches to university , it does not mean that you can qualify them to a level that guarantee you winning the World Cup. While investment and ground work is undeniably important , it is NOT the ultimate solution for success.

Take Spain as an example... After 80 years of top level football , it has just won the World Cup...what about those millions and billions of dollars that has been poured into football for all this time ? How come they did not have the proper coaches to win them the WC until now? Clubs like Barcelona and Real Madrid are richer than many countries... so, was all those failures attributed to bad Spanish coaching in spite of the fact that thousands of top level foreign football coaches have worked in Spain and with Spanish clubs?


Affect of coaches on team performance:

I have no figure and I have not seen any expert even suggesting a percentage, but it is in the lower percentages. If a perfect coach would guarantee success , then life would have been easy. The Saudis would have bought them and won the World Cup.:D

Success in football requires much much more than skilled coaches.



Next..... we shall talk about being an Iranian coach...

[Doctor DOOM]

just wanted to chip in on the issue of "effect of a coach on the team":

I think a coach has PLENTY of impact on the team's fortunes.
(winning trophies is a different matter. but realizing a team's true potential is absolutely within this topic)

we'll keep "teaching the basics or the game" for the club coach's requisites

1- starting from selection of the squad, which can go very wrong at times, the coach's impact can be felt.
for example neglecting to choose reserves for his main players, for occasions where the main player fails
or
2- neglecting to add certain types of players that add an extra dimension to the team, wide players, technical players, physical ones, pacey ones, tall ones, .... . you miss one and your team will be found wanting in that dept.
or
3- adopting wrong tactics for games
or
4- selection of the starting 11 could range from perfect to absolutely deficient
or
5- ability (or lack of) reading the game properly and making the right/wrong changes during the game ... or making the wrong subs or not subbing the right players or ....
or
6- wrong use of a player (in the wrong post or wrong tactics or ..)
or
..... etc.

so a coach can have a DIRECT and detrimental impact on the fortunes of a team. any of such decisions have been shown to make or break a team.
(btw, we have suffered from all the examples I've given above. so that is first hand experience speaking)


so you could have the perfect pool of players in a country with perfect infrastructure and development and ... . but when your coach adopts the wrong tactics or chooses the wrong players for the wrong occasion or .... , it can all go very very wrong for you.
we shdnt discount the impact of the coach. not for short term (for a particular game) or long term (trying to change the nature of football or making wholesale changes to it).

*********************

and I got the examples to prove it too:

lets not go very far and stay fresh.
1- a coach adopting the wrong tactics for a game
J-Low's decision to suddenly change germans' tactics and play a cautious, defensive game against spain back-fired massively.
dont tell me there's such a massive gap between spain and england/argentina. there isnt. in fact, I'd say spain, struggling to score goals (more on this later) would have been less of a threat than a team that had Messi and higuaine and tevez and had scored sh*tload of goals a couple of days before. J-Low could have stuck to his tactics and who knows what would have happened.

2- coach changing the nature of football
holland was known for their free flowing, total football that gave barca its brand of beautiful style and ... . but they never got anywhere in WC's.
so Van Marwjick comes in and changes the nature of their game and adds more steel, toughness and physicality (by picking different sort of players, diff sort of tactics, prep'ns and practice , ...etc) and they almost pay dirt (had Robben put away ANY of his 2 chances, who knows what would have been the final result)

3- coach making the right or wrong decisions on player selection. subbing, ..
Del Bosque kept insisting on the mis-firing torres and gave him plenty of chances. but the guy was not in form, no matter what.
so he makes the right decision to bench him in favor of the young, pacey Pedro, who gave the germans absolute hell and almost lead to a 2nd goal (had he been a bit less selfish).
contrast that with branko's insistence on daei's presence
or ...

4- coach's inability to deal w stars or team harmony (player desertion), .. etc
Domeneque's disastrous fortunes with the la-dida, hollywood stars of france and ...

[zzgloo]

I guess this is the core of the issue here.
you just dont want to see/accept the likes of jalali, GN, daei, Dr. Z, Ebrahimzadeh, ... are better than ghotbi

Payman jaan......with your permission,I trasfered your last comment to here from the other thread.....as I like you to know,I pay attention to your views,and indeed they are intelegent.

You are correct....as : " This is the core of the issue ".

1- tallebi and Mohajerani were different...as they were in a way,students of foreign managements, similar to Ghotbi .

2-The key issue....acctualy is not in coahings in IRAN......it is with management in IRAN............

management in IRAN is the single most backward aspect of our society !!!!

.................................................. .................................................. .

[maij]

Doc ...

What you are talking about, is the importance of a coach in a match, which can be summarized in one word..."Performance". Since human being , even the best of them , is NOT perfect , his performance varies. I am not debating this issue at all. I am not referring to individual coach’s performance on the day.

I am talking about “Coaching Factor” , rather than “Coach Performance”

Every coach has a huge drawback as soon as the referee blows the whistle for the start of the game. The coach can shout his head off, but that is neither here or there as the players might ignore him or even if they listen, there is no guarantee that it works. The coach cannot score the winning goal, the coach cannot save a penalty and the coach cannot sub all the players who are not performing …!!!


However , it has become a tedious cliché in football by many people who simply point the finger at coaches , simple because he is an individual and it is easy to find him culpable for other players shortcomings ….some reason such culpability on the coach by saying “ he selected that player in the first place!!!!!!”

On the day , coaches like players and rest of the human beings make mistakes, but even that is open to a lot of debates and is never as simple as you put it. When you talk about , tall player , fast player , strong defender...you are talking about resources management and coaches MUST be good at that , but do we really know why Capello did not play a forward like Crouch and believed in a player who scores once every decade ( Emille Heskey) ...does that indicate a weakness in Capello ?

My answer will always remain the same. Coaches know their players best, they live with them , they observe them , they train with them , talk with and about them...and the list goes on ......and if they exclude one player and chose another they ULTIMATELY have good reasons for it. To you it might be a mistake, but to the coach, it is what he believes was right at the time taking into account all the factors unknown to us.

Anyway., we should not drifty from the core question. So , in your opinion , how much percentage the coach has on a team overall performance ?



Just one question for you, Doc: If the coach is so important, how come a World Cup winning coach such as Del Bosque failed to train / instruct / guide or even hype a world class player such as Fernando Torres to score even a single goal ???

[Doctor DOOM]

Doc ...


Every coach has a huge drawback as soon as the referee blows the whistle for the start of the game. The coach can shout his head off, but that is neither here or there as the players might ignore him or even if they listen, there is no guarantee that it works. The coach cannot score the winning goal, the coach cannot save a penalty and the coach cannot sub all the players who are not performing …!!!


But he certainly has a direct influence before the ref blows the start whistle and even during the game. if he chooses the wrong players who are not in form, then it is obvious the team will struggle.
and the substitution is another way to address the above issues



However , it has become a tedious cliché in football by many people who simply point the finger at coaches , simple because he is an individual and it is easy to find him culpable for other players shortcomings ….some reason such culpability on the coach by saying “ he selected that player in the first place!!!!!!”


while I agree that not all blam shd befall the hapless coaches, but the radius of his influence is far greater than an individual player's. so whether we like it or not, most of the blame fall on his shoulder.


..... but do we really know why Capello did not play a forward like Crouch and believed in a player who scores once every decade ( Emille Heskey) ...does that indicate a weakness in Capello ?

It could be he decided on having a striker who can hold onto the ball and feed rooney or lampard or ... . basically a physical presence up front. crouch is a totally different type of player and playing him points to a very different tactics. basically a target forward for crosses and aerial game plan. 2 very different tactics.
so yes, capello decided to opt for one manner of tactics over another. nothing wrong with this. as you say humans are not perfect and are prone to mistakes.
these are decisions that sometimes may pay dirt, and some times may not. cant fault the coach much on this. and the coach can justify them.
but there are decisions that are clearly wrong ones and many things point to that. so the coach wont have much to justify them.


My answer will always remain the same. Coaches know their players best, they live with them , they observe them , they train with them , talk with and about them...and the list goes on ......and if they exclude one player and chose another they ULTIMATELY have good reasons for it. To you it might be a mistake, but to the coach, it is what he believes was right at the time taking into account all the factors unknown to us.


Anyway., we should not drifty from the core question. So , in your opinion , how much percentage the coach has on a team overall performance ?

A LOT.
I believe we can categorize the requisites for a successful team.
categories like the underlying matters like infrastructure, development, and facilities are as detrimental as other categories like inherent talent pool of a country or the coaching factor or organizational capabilities of a fed'n.
so within these categories, the coaching factor is quite important or as vital as the rest.


Just one question for you, Doc: If the coach is so important, how come a World Cup winning coach such as Del Bosque failed to train / instruct / guide or even hype a world class player such as Fernando Torres to score even a single goal ???

as far as I remember I didnt say the nat'l coach shd train or teach or hype or ... a player. so if you've seen me say any of this, plz point it out to me.

in fact, I brought up the torres issue to exemplify how a coach can and SHOULD bench a world-famous, star player like torres if he doesnt deliver. and that is among the positive decisions that a coach can make .... compared to other coaches who get stuck on an illogical belief that time and time again proves to be a mistake, and yet, the coach insists on them.

[zzgloo]

We all,at least for those of us who have extensive connection with IRANIAN society,is clear,that management,is the single most handicap in our country.........., it is not just disfounctional.....it is disruptive,and counter productive,and damaging !

Why we do not have to accept that as fact of life in our society ?.......because, football is different than ,lets say working in the bank....football is an international phenamyna,and in constant relation with international world....,hence,it must be treated with international norms !

.................................................. ..................................................

We saw, South Korea,japan,and new Zeland,and australia........
what did all these teams had incommon ?....
Why did they perform adequatly ?.....
did they have a longer history of football than we do ?....
did they have superior talents ?........
There was no complecated systems, there was no super talents............just deciplined organization !,and this world cup proved it to us, that, football is not a rocket scince, and is simpler than appears,..at least for our level.
.................................................. .................................................. ...

Today's football, is based on systematic,organized,team work,that aside from diciplined system,its players have basic foundemental skills.....
we have No player who can adequatly control the ball sent to him,no player who can shoot from far, no player who can head adequatly, no player who can manage his emotions,no player with killer instict,....in general.no intelegent player ( with some exceptions ) who can see the big picture!!

.................................................. ..................................................


Our coaches,have no organization themselevs,let alone creating one on the pitch.....they are part of that fvcked up managerial system.
They are not challanged to be better,themselevs....nor have any opportunity to learn from other better coaches...they work in a closed network of inefficient system.....

Our coaches,can not teach, basic skills,becuase,they have no international kowledge,nor will for progress, or presure of a competitive system.....

that is why ;

1- Our futsal talents who need less coaching ,and less system,,thrive !
2-that is why,most our talents get waisted,instead of flourishing.
3-that is why,our youth talents do not add any to thier skills after a long football life in IRAN, and stay with what they leant from thier youth.
4- No control of ball is taught,no shooting is taught,no vedio analysis for players, no organizational difference among coaches,no deciplin in the lucker room, no psycological motivations,no fear of exclusionsetc,etc....

,................................................. .................................................. ...

A typical, coaching sessions,in IRAIAN football clubs consist :

jogging around for half an hour
work out ,perhaps for another half an hour
work on creating some mismatches,for up-coming opponants
.................................................. .................................................. ....

there are no teachings !!!
No teaching of psycology,for killer instinct
No teaching by videos foreign games,and skills .
No teaching of Shootings...
No teaching of heading......
No teaching of judgements.....
No teaching of systems......
.................................................. ...............................................

there is yet another ,coaching handicap in IRAN, and that is :
the little they know, they would not share,because they are afraid others will learn and challange thier JOB .
A Stupid Cycle !.....that is why,the little knowledge of coaching is not transfered, the system is not capable of creating different coaches,with new ideas........
It is a same old,bangging around,and protent there are secrets no one els know........and low class of competition, and hundereds of 0-0 results among rah-ahan,abumoslem,pas,booshehr,etc,etc,can not uncover the level of incompetancy.

In business,transfering new ideas,and exchanges ,and fear of losing work,and competetive system,along with fresh iseas from others,insures progress....coaching in IRAN, is a dead-end, " MORD AAB ", with a rotten water,that does not recieve fresh water from streams, and is blocked to run to the sea !
That is why,our coaches need to be thrown to the sea !!

[Martin-Reza]

Although I was certainly surprised about the success of teams with Asian coaches, I still prefer any somewhat medicore foreign coach over any Iranian coach.

I must reconsider my negative position about Asian coaches in general, still I see a huge difference in terms of education and professionalism between Iranian and Eastern Asian coaches.

[Martin-Reza]

It seems that the UAE league is not going to have any Iranian players this season. This is the first season of the UAE , since it re-opened its league for foreigners , with no Iranian participation.

The significance of this event should not go unnoticed and it is related to the subject matter. This is the lowest that Iran football has reached and another proof that the weakness of a football is much more comprehensive and broad and not confined to the supposedly weak domestic coaches. The players are under-performing and aging. Lack of professional attitude has played an important role in Iran;s football woes.


It is indeed sad that we have almost no legionnaires left anymore. However, the recent ACL performances of our clubs gave me the impression our club football finally is improving. This is the very much needed basis for successful football and should in middle term assure a strong national team and more players going to Europe again. Yet, it has to be seen if the introduction of IPL finally brings us forward a lot or if my impression was wrong.

[maij]

Doc , Again you are talking about "Coach performance " versus "Coach factor".

Who is the best , absolutely the best coach in the world ? Del Boske , Mourinho , Wenger , Ferguesson ... ? let us confine it to those.

Fine....if anyone of them comes to Iran , what are the chance of winning the Asian Cup or the world Cup ?

Sounds like an unrealistic scenario, doesn’t it ? well…..because what you are claiming on the coach factor is over-blown in my opinion. Del Boske will not have Iniesta, Xabi or Ramos in his team in Azadi. He will not have a wealth of talents in the IPL like the la liga , he will not have the facilities , the culture , the work ethics, the professional to ensure that he produces a good team.


Staying with Spain…SO…if a coach has a “LOT” of influence, I want to know how come he did not manage to influence one player , and a World Class player for that matter ? where is that magical influence?

Where I come from , Peyman jan , the word and the concept of teamwork is a religion. In our industry, there is no such thing as “individual factor” when it comes to profit and loss or safety and disaster. It is very much like football. Influences vary and are circumstantial.

YES, leadership is important and crucial, but it is NOT the defining factor. When Cyrus the Great, invaded Asia Minor and Europe , he had a great army who fought for him . Despite his greatness , he could not have done it with a lackluster army.

[maij]

Bahram Jan.
You have pinpointed the woes of Iranian society quite well in fact , and from my own experience, I totally agree about the sub-standard management in Iran amongst other weaknesses.

You also referred to the chaotic system , cultural issues such as morality and work ethics.

So , Bahram jan….if you have a country with such fundamental problems . How can you expect a foreigner to thrive and deliver the goods in such environment ?

Isn’t that a contradiction?

I also want to use your own words ……. Football is not a rocket science .

So, taking that into consideration, how come Iranians cannot excel in such an easy field like football? The same Iranians that are running nuclear reactors, build missiles and have a large number of top level professional in every field, including engineering, medicine and science. I am talking about top level.

OK...let us not go too far afield , let us stick to sport. Do you know how many sports Iran has champions at Asian or World level ? How about the recent success of basketball and Volleyball teams under Iranian coaches....??


Simply put…your degradation of Iranian coaches does not make sense to me. History and facts says that Iranian coaches have achieved a lot in football and they still do. On the other hand the existence of some dreary and uninspiring Iranian coaches does not mean that a whole generation of coaches is bad.

In UAE , they are still talking about Heshamat Mohajerani as one the best ever coaches that have worked in that country. In fact, if God gave us a few more years to live , I bet you that Daei will be a candidate for a great coach and I am willing to bet a lot on him.

[maij]

It is indeed sad that we have almost no legionnaires left anymore. However, the recent ACL performances of our clubs gave me the impression our club football finally is improving. This is the very much needed basis for successful football and should in middle term assure a strong national team and more players going to Europe again. Yet, it has to be seen if the introduction of IPL finally brings us forward a lot or if my impression was wrong.


I am an avid believer that a strong league reflects directly and favorably on the national team. Saying that , I still think that IPL has a longish way to go to reach a level that one can be proud and confident with. There are still a lot of shortcomings in the league system in Iran as the poor management is becoming chronical.

BUT...it is a gallant effort and hopefully improvement will be apparent in a few years.

About Iranian players in Europe , I really cannot see an exodus anytime soon. We might have one or two , here and there but those will be exceptions. We have to remember that success of the Team Melli is the catalyst for demand for Iranian player by European teams. Something that last happened in 1997 and 1998 ( Success in Asian Cup 96 and reaching the World Cup in 1998)

[Doctor DOOM]

Doc , Again you are talking about "Coach performance " versus "Coach factor".

Who is the best , absolutely the best coach in the world ? Del Boske , Mourinho , Wenger , Ferguesson ... ? let us confine it to those.

Fine....if anyone of them comes to Iran , what are the chance of winning the Asian Cup or the world Cup ?

Sounds like an unrealistic scenario, doesn’t it ? well…..because what you are claiming on the coach factor is over-blown in my opinion. Del Boske will not have Iniesta, Xabi or Ramos in his team in Azadi. He will not have a wealth of talents in the IPL like the la liga , he will not have the facilities , the culture , the work ethics, the professional to ensure that he produces a good team.


Staying with Spain…SO…if a coach has a “LOT” of influence, I want to know how come he did not manage to influence one player , and a World Class player for that matter ? where is that magical influence?

Where I come from , Peyman jan , the word and the concept of teamwork is a religion. In our industry, there is no such thing as “individual factor” when it comes to profit and loss or safety and disaster. It is very much like football. Influences vary and are circumstantial.

YES, leadership is important and crucial, but it is NOT the defining factor. When Cyrus the Great, invaded Asia Minor and Europe , he had a great army who fought for him . Despite his greatness , he could not have done it with a lackluster army.



I did say:


I believe we can categorize the requisites for a successful team.
categories like the underlying matters like infrastructure, development, and facilities are as detrimental as other categories like inherent talent pool of a country or the coaching factor or organizational capabilities of a fed'n.
so within these categories, the coaching factor is quite important or as vital as the rest.


so, a nation's/team's success is MULTI-FACTORIAL (if you like to use the term "factor"). and one of those is the 'coach factor'.

which means if we get any of those guys, we shd do far better in whatever that is within a coach's purview, such as those that I enumerated.
and no, it doesnt mean it will cover the other shortcomings in the other categories (infrastructure, development, facilities, organization, talent, ... etc). but at least we wont see as many foolish mistakes during the games or subbing or selection or ... etc.

if you are looking for a one-solution scenario, well, it doesnt exist.
so there is NO 'single defining factor'. a country can have the very best facilities and organization and federation, with lots of money to throw at their problems, like uae ... and still suffer. why? becoz the other factors are lagging.
another country may have a humongous pool of talent with very intelligent, hard working players. ... and still drown in mediocrity.
again, becoz it lags in other areas.
that's why I said it is MULTI-FACTORIAL

again with the analogies: to win a race having only the best tyres is no insurance of success. there are other factors, such as engine, driver, chasis, weight, horse-power, ... .
and each factor is approached separately for correction and hopefully, simultaneously.

[maij]

I did say:



so, a nation's/team's success is MULTI-FACTORIAL (if you like to use the term "factor"). and one of those is the 'coach factor'.

which means if we get any of those guys, we shd do far better in whatever that is within a coach's purview, such as those that I enumerated.
and no, it doesnt mean it will cover the other shortcomings in the other categories (infrastructure, development, facilities, organization, talent, ... etc). but at least we wont see as many foolish mistakes during the games or subbing or selection or ... etc.

if you are looking for a one-solution scenario, well, it doesnt exist.
so there is NO 'single defining factor'. a country can have the very best facilities and organization and federation, with lots of money to throw at their problems, like uae ... and still suffer. why? becoz the other factors are lagging.
another country may have a humongous pool of talent with very intelligent, hard working players. ... and still drown in mediocrity.
again, becoz it lags in other areas.
that's why I said it is MULTI-FACTORIAL

again with the analogies: to win a race having only the best tyres is no insurance of success. there are other factors, such as engine, driver, chasis, weight, horse-power, ... .
and each factor is approached separately for correction and hopefully, simultaneously.

Well , thank you very much..... I have no quarrel about that.

So you DO believe that success in football is MULTI-FACTORIAL and the coach is one part of that. perhaps the disagreement comes in your belief that the coach has a LOT of influence , while I do believe that the coach factor is as variable as the circumstances. There is no such thing as fixed value. One day a coach has tremendous factor , while on the other his contribution and effort is marginal.


But the most important point that I firmly beleive in is that , you cannot buy success in football. You cannot bring in a foreign coach and expect him to mend your chronic problems over-night. A single or a group of foreigners cannot and will not adjust your culture and worth ethics, nor can they improve your training faculties , or produce players of Karimi standard en mass.

Va Salam :D

[Martin-Reza]

I am an avid believer that a strong league reflects directly and favorably on the national team. Saying that , I still think that IPL has a longish way to go to reach a level that one can be proud and confident with. There are still a lot of shortcomings in the league system in Iran as the poor management is becoming chronical.

BUT...it is a gallant effort and hopefully improvement will be apparent in a few years.

About Iranian players in Europe , I really cannot see an exodus anytime soon. We might have one or two , here and there but those will be exceptions. We have to remember that success of the Team Melli is the catalyst for demand for Iranian player by European teams. Something that last happened in 1997 and 1998 ( Success in Asian Cup 96 and reaching the World Cup in 1998)



Well, TM success and amount of legionnaires are heavily correlated. One thing is pushing the other and we were in a "positive escalation" for years and somehow managed to turn it into a negative one. Now it will be very hard to break that circle. We need a lucky shot at next WCQ. If we make it to WC some players will make it to Europe again, which will improve TM performances and results and help further players to be scouted and signed and so on...

[zzgloo]

Bahram Jan.
You have pinpointed the woes of Iranian society quite well in fact , and from my own experience, I totally agree about the sub-standard management in Iran amongst other weaknesses.

You also referred to the chaotic system , cultural issues such as morality and work ethics.

So , Bahram jan….if you have a country with such fundamental problems . How can you expect a foreigner to thrive and deliver the goods in such environment ?

Isn’t that a contradiction?

I also want to use your own words ……. Football is not a rocket science .

So, taking that into consideration, how come Iranians cannot excel in such an easy field like football? The same Iranians that are running nuclear reactors, build missiles and have a large number of top level professional in every field, including engineering, medicine and science. I am talking about top level.

OK...let us not go too far afield , let us stick to sport. Do you know how many sports Iran has champions at Asian or World level ? How about the recent success of basketball and Volleyball teams under Iranian coaches....??


Simply put…your degradation of Iranian coaches does not make sense to me. History and facts says that Iranian coaches have achieved a lot in football and they still do. On the other hand the existence of some dreary and uninspiring Iranian coaches does not mean that a whole generation of coaches is bad.

In UAE , they are still talking about Heshamat Mohajerani as one the best ever coaches that have worked in that country. In fact, if God gave us a few more years to live , I bet you that Daei will be a candidate for a great coach and I am willing to bet a lot on him.









Good points majid jaan.......
Although,I care very little for Ali Daei and consider hi psycologicaly inbalance,Yet, I agree he will come back......
In fact, my solution to our situation,is a fresh start, with coaching class of likes of DAEI, HASHEMIAN,MAHDAVIKIA,etc........as a matter of fact, heshmat Mohajerani,and jallal Talebi,were first in forign experinced coaching class !
.................................................. ..............................................

The main reason, currant system can not be accepted, is that because : NO ONE LEARNS ANYTHING NEW, Niether players, nor Coaches !!


.................................................. ..............................................
The success of Iranian bascket ball, and vally ball,etc, is due to the level of the success in football, as our football has had limited success too !!
But, to go to the next level, to go where the big boys are, it requires a more organizational skills, and raw talents will not be sufficient..it is only sufficient up to a Asian level,or islamic level........
The success have been either at Asian levels, or international youth level,which talents count more than system,and youth talents is high in IRAN,but no growth after !!!.....Our Biggest talent in basketball, signed a contract with memphys grizlers NBA,and kicked out after a year....similar to our football legioners....
.................................................. ................................................
1- Economic advancements of countreis such as ours, have started with combination of foreign investment,foreign managements, and transfering and importing up todate knowledge....and training of locals....
Football reguires a same system of changes......

2- Even, big boys, such as Spain, advanced its football,in last decade by importing forign players and coaches,and investments, it paid off !

.................................................. ..................................................

South Korea, japan, and even new zeland, are leaving us behind, only by organizational deciplins......not by producing more talents !

.................................................. ................................................
A system based on poletical propaganda,and bad management,and lack of importing new ideas,and lack of accountability, will go no where......
Football, does not neccessarly need to wait for the whole system to change,as it could be indepenedtly advancing, since football is non-poletical, and international......
All we need is a combination of fresh class of domestic coaches with up to date informetion and managerial skills...and a generation of foreign coaches, who can adopt to our system, such as eastern Europeans,and may be football minded head at IFF, such as Mohajerani !!!

[zzgloo]

Well, TM success and amount of legionnaires are heavily correlated. One thing is pushing the other and we were in a "positive escalation" for years and somehow managed to turn it into a negative one. Now it will be very hard to break that circle. We need a lucky shot at next WCQ. If we make it to WC some players will make it to Europe again, which will improve TM performances and results and help further players to be scouted and signed and so on...
martin jaan.....
sending more player to Europe, can not be a plan of action to improve football......
The only solution is to invest havily in domestic league coaching !

[zzgloo]

حاج *رضايي:
فوتبال ما به افراد شريف نياز دارد
مربيان ليگ برتري بايد حداقل*ها را دارا باشند
مربي كم*دانش باشخصيت بهتر است از بادانش بي*شخصيت سرويس: ورزشي - فوتبال
1389/04/23
07-14-2010
10:24:35
8904-11877: كد خبر



خبرگزاري دانشجويان ايران - تهران
سرويس: ورزشي - فوتبال


اميرحاج رضايي در نشست كافه فوتبال با موضوع "بررسي تاثيرات جام جهاني بر فوتبال ايران" گفت: فوتبال ايران به افراد شريف نياز دارد.

به گزارش خبرنگار ورزشي خبرگزاري دانشجويان ايران (ايسنا)، اين كارشناس فوتبال اظهار كرد: اينكه با نااميدي به فوتبال كشورمان نگاه كنيم اصلا تصميم خوبي نيست. نكته اساسي اين است كه براي ارتقاي فوتبال هر كس بايد در هر جايگاهي كه قرار دارد كار را از خودش شروع كند. حقيقت امر اين است كه فوتبال ايران به افراد شريف نياز دارد تا وضعيت فوتبال را از اين بهتر كند. افرادي كه در فوتبال مي*آيند بايد در هر سمتي كه هستند "نه" گفتن را بلد باشند و در جايي كه با اصول اخلاقي*شان در تضاد است از آن پست بيرون بيايند.

حاج رضايي ادامه داد: فوتبال ما يك پازل است كه اگر يك تكه*اش شكل نگيرد كار به خوبي انجام نمي*شود و بايد كاري كرد تا همه اعضاي فوتبال به درستي كار خود را انجام دهند.

اين كارشناس فوتبال در مورد مسابقات جام جهاني و احساس شخصي*اش از اين رقابت*ها گفت: در سال يك*روز به نام روز پدر داريم اما وقتي كه جام جهاني برگزار مي*شود من احساس مي*كنم كه 30 روز پدر دارم. من فوتبال را صميمانه دوست دارم و اصلا براي آن زندگي مي*كنم. در عين حال كه از شرايط حاكم بر فوتبال دردمند هستم اما هيچ زوري و هيچ مقام و ثروتي هم ندارم كه بتوانم اين شرايط را تغيير دهم. من فقط يك معلم ساده هستم كه كمي قدرت حرف زدن دارد، اما مطمئن نيستم كه حرف*هايم تاثيرگذار باشد و نكاتي را كه بايد از آنها برداشت شود.

حاج رضايي در ارتباط با اين موضوع كه آيا فوتبال ايران آمادگي پذيرش آموزه*هاي جام جهاني را دارد گفت: خير، اين آمادگي هنوز در فوتبال ايران وجود ندارد چرا كه ما هنوز آن شرافت لازم را در ميان افراد حاضر در فوتبال نمي*بينيم. واقعيت اين است كه ما قواعد ديالوگ را بلد نيستيم. نمونه*اش همين ملي*پوشان سابقي كه اكنون مربي شدند و مرتب با هم بحث و جدل مي*كنند و مثلا دليل برتري خود را بازيهاي ملي بيشتر خود عنوان مي*كنند. همين امر نشان مي*دهد كه فوتبال ما بافرهنگ نيست. چرا كه فرهنگ گفت*وگو ميان مربيان يك جامعه فوتبال اينگونه نيست. به عقيده من خيلي چيزها در فوتبال ما گم شده است.

حاج رضايي افزود: مربياني كه به ليگ برتر مي*آيند بايد به جهت اخلاقي، علمي و پايگاه اجتماعي حداقل*ها را دارا باشند. تنها افراد توانمند مي*توانند در ليگ برتر ما حضور داشته باشند، اما متاسفانه مي*بينيم كه وضعيت اينگونه نيست و افراد براساس توانمندي*هاي خود در پستشان حضور ندارند. امروزه دنيا به سمتي پيش مي*رود كه افراد توانمند را براي خود انتخاب مي*كند، اما ما ايراني*ها در حال حاضر به دلايل عديده ناتوانيم.

اين كارشناس فوتبال ادامه داد: به نظر من نسلي كه مي*خواهد وارد چرخه فوتبال كشور شود بايد يكسري اخلاقيات را رعايت كند و اين نكته را همواره به ياد داشته باشد كه تنها انسان شريف است كه مي*تواند خدمت كند. افراد جديدي كه قرار است به فوتبال ايران بيايند بايد مسلح باشند كه سلاح آنها نيز آگاهي آنهاست. من شخصا يك مربي كم دانش و باشخصيت را به يك مربي بادانش و بي*شخصيت ترجيح مي*دهم. چرا كه فردي كه باشخصيت است اصول خود را زيرپا نمي*گذارد و از ارزشهاي خود عدول نمي*كند.

حاج رضايي خاطرنشان كرد: يك روز وقتي 12 ساله بودم در همسايگي*مان حسن حبيبي را ديدم كه آن زمان 18 سال داشت و به او سلام كردم و او جواب سلام مرا داد و آن شب من به خاطر اين اتفاق تا صبح نخوابيدم، اما امروز شاهديم كه حسن حبيبي در فوتبال ايران جايي ندارد. همينطور افراد ديگري مثل او نظير منصور اميرآصفي نيز امروزه در فوتبال ايران ديده نمي*شود. متاسفانه جامعه ما اين افراد را فراموش كرده است و به نوعي فوتبال ما از معلم*ها خالي شده است.

حاج رضايي در پايان اظهار كرد: اميدوارم همه افرادي كه در فوتبال حضور دارند به شرافت آن كمك كنند تا وضعمان از اين بهتر شود.

انتهاي پيام



The system is not capable of correcting itself......
The so called ,experts,do not know where to start.......
When a respected domestic football expert, admits the short comings,yet believes , " Sherafat ",is the solution...what can we do ?
perhaps,what he means by " Sherafat ", is , work ethics, without noticing it himself !!.....and that can not be produced within the system........
yet,he admits,solutions most be with league's coaching, and work ethics.....
.................................................. .................................................

Such radical changes to transform cultural inefficiencies,have been successful in Economic models, in Business world,by cooperation of forign "Know-how ',and new educated classes........,perhaps, our football should look into Bussiness models !

[Doctor DOOM]

The main reason, currant system can not be accepted, is that because : NO ONE LEARNS ANYTHING NEW, Niether players, nor Coaches !!
.................................................. .............................................

1- Economic advancements of countreis such as ours, have started with combination of foreign investment,foreign managements, and transfering and importing up todate knowledge....and training of locals....
Football reguires a same system of changes......

2- Even, big boys, such as Spain, advanced its football,in last decade by importing forign players and coaches,and investments, it paid off !
.................................................. ..................................................
South Korea, japan, and even new zeland, are leaving us behind, only by organizational deciplins......not by producing more talents !
.................................................. ................................................
A system based on poletical propaganda,and bad management,and lack of importing new ideas,and lack of accountability, will go no where......
Football, does not neccessarly need to wait for the whole system to change,as it could be indepenedtly advancing, since football is non-poletical, and international......
All we need is a combination of fresh class of domestic coaches with up to date informetion and managerial skills...and a generation of foreign coaches, who can adopt to our system, such as eastern Europeans,and may be football minded head at IFF, such as Mohajerani !!!


I agree totally w all the above.
(note; this is besides the ghotbi issue)


if we see successful native koreans n japanese coaches int'lly, it is only the result of a decade-long investment on foreign coaching at both club & nat'l level & long term planning by well organized fedn's .
without all these, none of the japanese or korean success (coaching & team wise) would have been possible.

so, yes, within the category of coaching, hiring of the likes of wenger, hiddink, troussier , ... have had tremendous impact on today's success.

[Doctor DOOM]

Well, TM success and amount of legionnaires are heavily correlated. One thing is pushing the other and we were in a "positive escalation" for years and somehow managed to turn it into a negative one. Now it will be very hard to break that circle. We need a lucky shot at next WCQ. If we make it to WC some players will make it to Europe again, which will improve TM performances and results and help further players to be scouted and signed and so on...

couldnt agree more, except add the significance of the asia cuo to the WC, as the other great chance for introd'n & exposure of our talent to the world.

... which makes our performance in the upcoming AC 10 times more vital that we shdnt experiment with (hint at using the sub-par coach like ghotbi)

[Doctor DOOM]

this thread got me thinking about the true potential of our vatani coaches, especially the new faces, who still have the capacity to learn and get them up to speed with the rest of asia or even the world.

among the younger generation, who, imo, have shown sparks and shown an inner talent that hold some promise for the future, are:
1- Taghavi (he did pretty well with saipa and a couple of other teams a few years back)
2- Ahmadzadeh (his malavan played some great football and produced/introduced many stars of today's IPL)
3- Doosti
4- GN
5- Daei
6- Dast-neshan
7- Estili (hell, why not? lets put his name too)


we could add the slightly more mature, but still plenty of years left in the tank coaches too:
- Jalali
- Ebrahimzadeh
- Firooz karimi
-

so it's not as if there's dearth of promising talent. but it is up to IFF AND THEMSELVES to mold them into Okadas and Jung-Moos of the future Iran.

p.s.; with the likes of VH and probably Kia taking up coaching, we will see a gigantic jump in technical knowledge and information among the next generation of vatani coaches too.

***************

notice, mansourian is nowhere in the list, imo, as he hasnt shown anything to justify his inclusion. and yet, ghotbi chose him, which reinforces the belief that this selection was more towards securing ghotbi's own seat by choosing a non-threatening assistant, than the assistant's coaching capabilities!

btw, among the 10 names above, I believe at least 5-6 of them are better qualified to lead TM than ghotbi. and yet , kafashian extended ghotbi's contract!!!

[Keano]

Our football and overall our culture suffers from lack of discipline and professionalism, our football coaches and players' misdemeanor and shortage of ethics will never be improved unless it's fundamentally re-structured, this indeed won't happen unless a foreign force and element is injected into this chronic and painful disease. I can confidently say that 99% of our football is affected by this epidemic disease.

Sometimes in the life of a family the internal problems and never-ending issues get so intense and non stop that only an outsider and a professional family psychologist may be able to solve the issues and settle things down, our current state of football is exactly the same scenario. Our national coaches not only have over and over failed in delivering such missions, but on the contrary often caused more chaos and controversy by their unethical actions!


I won't even get into the technical and tactical aspects of the comparison between the 2, as such comparisons are rather futile and ridiculous! :)

[maij]

Doc..

I would personally put a lot of faith in Daei , Kia, Hashemian to be technically the better coaches simply because of the foreign exposure and experience , although I have some reservation about Hashmian character and his ability in dealing with the difficult players.

Yes , it is up to these coaches to deliver the goods by self-improvement , character adjustment and realism. Their progress is not dependent or conditional on IFF at all. All IFF can do is provide regular workshop , which it does well. It is one of the few things that IFF has actually managed to do right and without interruption. I strongly believe that the ball is in the individual coach's court.

I do not care much about the claims that Iranian coaches are as bad as some put it ...that is pure nonsense. They are as good as the football itself no better no worse. These coaches that you have mentioned and others as well , have the potential and if they apply themselves , work hard at it and refrain from too much irooni bazi and blaming the earth and sky , they might actually excel i their jobs. It is all in the mind.

Keano....

Changing a nation culture takes a generation or two. We all know what type of culture that exists in Iran and we know the shortcomings. Instead of fighting it and trying to change it , it is much better to live along and deal with it...and the research says the people who can deal best with such cultural adjustment are the people within.

If you are suggesting that foreigners come and teach the Iranians a few things about their own behavior and its weakness , history and track records says the chances of failure is quite high and success is a few and far between. Nobody knows about the inner secrets of a culture than the people who are living in it and know its shortcomings.

The ideal situation is for well educated , well trained and qualified coaches , as the DOC suggested , take the initiative and work their way up.

There is always that worry about patience and support. Iranians are not good in both. They lack tolerance and patience and the slightest hint of weak results means that the coach has to be sacrificed. These coaches need time and support.

[zzgloo]

Nobody knows about the inner secrets of a culture than the people who are living in it and know it shortcomings.

.

This is where we are in disagreement !!

We all, learned much more about Iranian culture,when we were out side of it...,while being originaly from the culture,gives additional perspective.....may be the best compromise is what we all seemed to have agreed on,.....as , keano, Doc, you and I, have been in agreement of a new class of : DAEI, HASHEMIAN,MAHDAVIKIA,etc......

[maij]

.

This is where we are in disagreement !!

We all, learned much more about Iranian culture,when we were out side of it...,while being originaly from the culture,gives additional perspective.....may be the best compromise is what we all seemed to have agreed on,.....as , keano, Doc, you and I, have been in agreement of a new class of : DAEI, HASHEMIAN,MAHDAVIKIA,etc......


Nobody knows about the inner secrets of a culture than the people who are living in it and know its shortcomings.

That statement was NOT mine. It is the anthropologists and social studies experts who came up with this theory...and I tend to agree with it.

I am not discounting your statement about findings about Iranian culture when you went out of Iran. I fully agree and support it...But Bahram Jan...YOU ARE the culture and YOU ARE Iranian and PERSIAN ( regardless to your passport)...so YOU ARE better equipped/qualified to tackle the cultural issues much more than Mr. John Franaklin De Souza

We are in agreement Agha Bahram. I don't agree that we are disagreeing (hmmmmmm...it is getting a bit complicated now!!:D:D)

[zzgloo]

[B][FONT=Georgia]
We are in agreement Agha Bahram. I don't agree that we are disagreeing (hmmmmmm...it is getting a bit complicated now!!:D:D)
I agree !! :)

[maij]

One of the difficulties that the vatani coaches face in Iran is the unnatural and deep friction that the media creates amongst them leading to animosity and mud slanging. The media ( excluding TV) seems never to get satisfied unless they create such atmosphere of controversy. There are countless examples and the freshest one that comes to mind is between Ghalenoei and Mazloomi and the former and Daei.

If we assume that media is always catering for the masses preferences and reflecting the reader's viewpoints and choices , then we assume that people like to read about such fights and differences between coaches and coaches or players versus coaches.

Another phenomena that is always evident in Iran is the hyper-critical views of coaches against whoever Team Melli coach is. Recently , there was an all out attack on Ghotbi due to his summer camp in Austria, before him Daei was a target and before that Ghalenoei !!!

[maij]

اخبار مهم: گردهمایی توجیهی – دانش افزایی مربیان برتر کشور



مشارکت شده توسط reporter در تیر 27, 1389 - 06:29 قبل از ظهر
تعداد بازدید خبر: 3
http://ffiri.ir/html/images/news/7169-0-small.png (http://ffiri.ir/html/images/news/7169-0-norm.png)[دانلود تصویر] (http://ffiri.ir/html/images/news/7169-0-norm.png)


کمیته آموزش فدراسیون فوتبال گردهمایی توجیهی – دانش افزایی مربیان ليگ برتر فوتبال کشور را برگزار می کند.

به گزارش سایت رسمی فدراسیون فوتبال ، کمیته آموزش فدراسیون فوتبال به منظور افزایش دانش مربیان ليگ برتر فوتبال کشور ، يك دوره كلاس توجيهي –دانش افزايي مربيان برتر را روز دوشنبه 28/4/89 راس ساعت 9:00 به مدت يك روز در هتل آکادمی ملی فوتبال برگزار خواهد كرد.

[zzgloo]

اخبار مهم: گردهمایی توجیهی – دانش افزایی مربیان برتر کشور



مشارکت شده توسط reporter در تیر 27, 1389 - 06:29 قبل از ظهر
تعداد بازدید خبر: 3
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کمیته آموزش فدراسیون فوتبال گردهمایی توجیهی – دانش افزایی مربیان ليگ برتر فوتبال کشور را برگزار می کند.

به گزارش سایت رسمی فدراسیون فوتبال ، کمیته آموزش فدراسیون فوتبال به منظور افزایش دانش مربیان ليگ برتر فوتبال کشور ، يك دوره كلاس توجيهي –دانش افزايي مربيان برتر را روز دوشنبه 28/4/89 راس ساعت 9:00 به مدت يك روز در هتل آکادمی ملی فوتبال برگزار خواهد كرد.

Majid jaan.......
your previouse post was also interesting,as this is as well.....
" Daanesh Afzaaee "....niether can be done with only " ONE DAY "...nor, is it something that can be taught in a class room...
Forign coaches, beside thier coaching degrees, they have been assistant to several coaches, and learnt from different coaches, in very compatetive atmosphers.......
a tipycal carrier of a coach in Europe consists of, :

1- playing background in a proffesional league.
2-coaching classes.
3-Assistantship, to several head coaches,in different capacities.
4-coaching in lower leagues.
5-coaching for several prffesional league teams.
6-possibily,national team coahing experince.
7-In addition, most of them have collage degrees as well,or even higher education.
.................................................. .................................................. .

Tipycal carriers of domestic coaches :

1- playing background in Iranian league.
2-No coaching degrees, or if they do,it is a low class one.
3-Coaching in a weak domestic league,with little competition.

[maij]

Bahram jan... You really managed to confuse this poor soul :D

You mention that Football is not rocket science , yet you go on about the career of western coaches compared to Iranian and leading me to believe that Iranians will never reach the standard of a European coach !

You say that you have culturally learned a lot from being an Iranian from outside hence leading me to think that you are NOT the typical Iranian, but then you follow the classical and Iranian party line with your " Ein Kharijiyeh ...class dareh" mentality !!! glorifying anything foreign , ridiculing anything national or local !

I can't figure out what is next , Bahram Agha.

The reason that I posted that news was to indicate to many out there that classes , courses , seminars and workshops are held regularly in Iran despite the beleif of some that the country has no football education/ training system for coaches. I did NOT suggest that this one day class will breed champions and gradute Phd in soccer science!

However , since you mentioned the career development of a western coach , how about one Mr. Jurgen Klinsmann ?

BTW: I have a long list of Western coaches who have NOT followed what you suggested , but will start with Klinsmann to see how you can justify his case initially.

[zzgloo]

Bahram jan... You really managed to confuse this poor soul :D

You mention that Football is not rocket science , yet you go on about the career of western coaches compared to Iranian and leading me to believe that Iranians will never reach the standard of a European coach !

You say that you have culturally learned a lot from being an Iranian from outside hence leading me to think that you are NOT the typical Iranian, but then you follow the classical and Iranian party line with your " Ein Kharijiyeh ...class dareh" mentality !!! glorifying anything foreign , ridiculing anything national or local !

I can't figure out what is next , Bahram Agha.

The reason that I posted that news was to indicate to many out there that classes , courses , seminars and workshops are held regularly in Iran despite the beleif of some that the country has no football education/ training system for coaches. I did NOT suggest that this one day class will breed champions and gradute Phd in soccer science!

However , since you mentioned the career development of a western coach , how about one Mr. Jurgen Klinsmann ?

BTW: I have a long list of Western coaches who have NOT followed what you suggested , but will start with Klinsmann to see how you can justify his case initially.
Majid e aziz...
I must have given contradicting signals,...but I did not mean to....,yet,you , an intelegent reader,must have seen something...

These are points I have raised in my posts,in different threads ,and I personaly do not see any inconsistancies in them :if you do, please point them to me:

1- Football is not a Rocket science, It only requires,players with basic skills,and organization.

2-In order for players to learn basic skills and organization,they must be taught, that is they must be going through some "teachings".

3-coaches in IRAN, do not know the basics of coaching,which is " Teaching ".

4-coaches in Iran,lack knowledge themseleves....( I mentioned why,in my previouse posts )

5-the process of becoming a coach is very elementary in IRAN ,and competition among coaches is non-existant.( I explained before )

6-A new class of coaches is required, with background of playing and learning coaching in Europe,...such as, Mahdavikia,hashemian,etc...such remedy has proven fruitful in Business.
.................................................. .................................................. ..

To answer your specific points :

1-Iranian coaches will some day get to the level of good forign coaches, when, the level of competition is high among domestic coaches, and all are equiped with today's knowledge of football.....this will happen, when we get to the secound class of " New generation of coaches ".when the knowledge is sufficiently transfered and passed around.

2- Klinsman, or maradona,or beckenbauer,or Ali Daei,etc.......these individuals,became coaches on the count of popularity....and are exceptional cases,and the results of those kind of coaches have been mixed.......yet a country can not base the future of its football on exceptions.


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