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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor DOOM View Post
    while you well know I dont agree with putting off hiring of good coaches based on a improbable hope that one day in near future, our infrastructure and fundamentals would be strong, ... , I must say I agree with the second part of your post here:




    absolutely correct.
    even with the notion of having branko at either omid or youth level TM's.


    --------------

    the same second part that somehow negates your first part's claims, persi jan.
    one could well say why even bother with luka or branko or vingo, given that our infrstrctr and basics are lacking and non-existent ( the argument for thinking bringing cood coaches for TM changes almost nothing ! ) based on : .... when doosti, ahmadzadeh and derakhshan could be as useful as branko, luka and vingo , but we'd still keep all those hefty salaries in pockets of IFF
    a bit contradictory, no?
    it actually does not negate!
    getting on with good footwork for the youth IS INFRASTRUCTURE!
    they will then grow to understand the likes of hiddink and hopefully play ina lighted stadium on above average pitch on a scheduled time with proper diets, workouts, etc..

    put delbuske atop tm with the players that have a lose rootwork u wont see a dorn diff between him and ghalenoei!
    deerooz, emrooz, farda
    zeeremonan
    sheeshtayeea
    The only dynasty of iranian football. ( At least three back to back championships define dynasty, we had moreTeam of the people by the people for the people that fills up 100k stadium like its nothing.
    Future of true professional football if any in Iran!

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM-Fan View Post
    About the topic, I believe if a good foreign coach can bring us success, even if it is temporary, even if it is just for a tournament and with only 11 players, and even if it costs us a couple of million dollars a year, we should go for it.
    me too but that would be a harry potter story!
    for that very same reason dreaming is not reality
    a dream coach right now with say 20 mil could sign for 3 years with tm and I would put my money on ab az ab takoon nemeekhore!
    deerooz, emrooz, farda
    zeeremonan
    sheeshtayeea
    The only dynasty of iranian football. ( At least three back to back championships define dynasty, we had moreTeam of the people by the people for the people that fills up 100k stadium like its nothing.
    Future of true professional football if any in Iran!

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor DOOM View Post
    the thing is persi jan wants a SERIES approach to our lacks and needs.
    I say we can do a PARALLEL one.

    persi jan wants us to first attend and focus on fundamental and infrastructural needs of our football ( stadia, youth programs, development, professionalism, coach training, .... ) and once we get all these right, then attend to the needs of foreign coaches and ... so on.

    I say while we attend to the most important infrastructural needs of our football, we might as well get something else also right. that is sustaining a steady input of professional attitude into our national teams through good foreign coaches. hopefully until our own younger coaches, who have been invested in all this while, will slowly show their worth and we can turn to them.
    mine is the parallel approach.
    and I think zz's also with me on this one.


    why I say this is becoz whenever we succeed in any international arena ( more chances of it happening with foreign coaches than vatani ones ), our football gets more buoyant and charged up. energized and positive change can happen easier, faster. at the same time, our other basic needs also will be better attended to.

    but if we wait and see if IRI will invest money, time and ppl in our basic needs ( something that with their track record, we all know is an improbability ) we retract more and more into ourselves and fall behind the rest .

    yes I agree , mega million salaries wont help us but drain our resources.
    but we DONT GET such coahces who charge such amounts anyway.
    AT BEST we may get good second rate european coaches like jorge, santini, denizli, luka, ciro, ... who will not charge so much but still add to our football.
    my friend for one you are off topic here as this is a subjective sort of philosopical/ logical argument rather than a mere physics/ electronics facts!!

    secondly:
    where is the alleged cornerstone of this "paralel" argument!? because we lack that mainstay I say the other parallel will not work either, do it or not point is mute...so long that u e lagging in infrastructure u will fail

    thirdly:
    where is an example of a nation that has seen significant and lasting improvement in their football by just hiring great coaches!!? show me one example so we could at least say we have a living proof rather than just chasing a non existing eutopia!!

    last but not least example is this:
    you cant use a ferrari on kaveer!!
    get roads then get drivers and then get ferrari
    parallel work of laying the road and getting the ferrari will not work either because we lack the simple basics!! simple as that

    now do I say I am against the likes of luka, vingo!!? u bet not!
    I want them in and put them on the ground zero and at least spend that dollar on my infrastructure, i.e youth
    for our adult team at this stage alles ist egal!
    deerooz, emrooz, farda
    zeeremonan
    sheeshtayeea
    The only dynasty of iranian football. ( At least three back to back championships define dynasty, we had moreTeam of the people by the people for the people that fills up 100k stadium like its nothing.
    Future of true professional football if any in Iran!

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by maij View Post
    I dont have much argument about that , Doc, only that if a system is disorganized , such as we have experienced in Iran , then regardless to which method they use (Series or parallel) it makes little impact. Failures will be rife , success will be short lives or occasional.

    I guess those few millions went into someone's coffer , ...Tarbiyat Badani ? IFF ? the nice HQ building ? ...I really don't know and I doubt that the system is transparent enough to let the public know.

    As for spending 2 million on a top notch coach , I do not think that it will make a huge difference in Team Melli's case. Coaches take time to get a firm foot on the team...they say about 3 years , but that is in a European organized and professional system. With the status of the players and IFF not to mention the meddling of Trabiyat Badani and the parliament , I doubt very much that this 2 millions will have a serious return on investment.

    Seriously though....that money is much more needed elsewhere. Despite the fact that money is spent by the government on worthless cases and propaganda , I say two wrongs does not make a right.
    I agree
    and that is exactly where I come from
    if you have a country that lives by laws and logic then chose "parallel "or "series "we will get there..In that setting I will still choose the infrastructural approach then build on that, but you still need that bad of logic and lawful to even think about a "paralel" approach!

    but when IRI is ran by thieves and thugs calling a whole nation sagheer without brains that need a valiye faghih to show the right from wrong!!then for one nothing will work!! for two:

    if I had to spend a penny that would at least be used later on would still be infrastructural work!
    so in both system infrastructural approach stays...

    last but not least you cant claim a "parallel" approach in this setting when nothing is done other than just this foreign coach or the other!! point is mute either way you look at it.
    deerooz, emrooz, farda
    zeeremonan
    sheeshtayeea
    The only dynasty of iranian football. ( At least three back to back championships define dynasty, we had moreTeam of the people by the people for the people that fills up 100k stadium like its nothing.
    Future of true professional football if any in Iran!

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by maij View Post
    I hate to say it , but Iranian football fans are extremely over demanding and are becoming detached from the reality in Iran......

    My friend , do you know how many roads , schools , shelters , houses or clinics can be built in the deprived ares of the country or remote poor villages with this money??

    I have been and will be an avid supporter of Team Melli all my life and if this 2 million is self generated by football , then I would not have an issue . But why should the government spent that sort of money so me and you could enjoy watching our beloved team on TV, while this money is much more needed elsewhere for the deprived???

    It is not right......

    Why should this be think that giving 2 million bucks to a foreigner is
    aaghaa Maij, spending money on shelters, roads, for the poor etc. is a must, no doubt about it. I am definitely not supporting to cut the money from the poor and give it to a foreign coach.

    The thing is that people in a country have different needs and life has different aspects. That is why every country allocates budget for entertainment and spends it on cinemas, theaters, parks, etc. If our country had only $2mil money and we wanted to decide whether to spend it for the poor or hire a foreign coach for football, I would agree with you. $2mil for our country is like 3 cents out of everybody's pocket, and I think is well worth it if we can spend it on something that the majority of the people have passion for. There will still be plenty of money to spend for the poor if we really want to.

    Just as an sports example, how much money does the government give the useless clubs such as RahAhan and Saba who have absolutely no fans and very little income for just ganging in the IPL? Or as an another example, IR has recently adopted a new policy to spend more on the championship sports to increase the number of medals in the international competitions. They think it is a good advertise for the country. And note that the money is spent for just a few selected athletes and not for the whole country. Why not reduce these budgets and give it to the sports that people like the most?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM-Fan View Post
    aaghaa Maij, spending money on shelters, roads, for the poor etc. is a must, no doubt about it. I am definitely not supporting to cut the money from the poor and give it to a foreign coach.

    The thing is that people in a country have different needs and life has different aspects. That is why every country allocates budget for entertainment and spends it on cinemas, theaters, parks, etc. If our country had only $2mil money and we wanted to decide whether to spend it for the poor or hire a foreign coach for football, I would agree with you. $2mil for our country is like 3 cents out of everybody's pocket, and I think is well worth it if we can spend it on something that the majority of the people have passion for. There will still be plenty of money to spend for the poor if we really want to.

    Just as an sports example, how much money does the government give the useless clubs such as RahAhan and Saba who have absolutely no fans and very little income for just ganging in the IPL? Or as an another example, IR has recently adopted a new policy to spend more on the championship sports to increase the number of medals in the international competitions. They think it is a good advertise for the country. And note that the money is spent for just a few selected athletes and not for the whole country. Why not reduce these budgets and give it to the sports that people like the most?
    I think you will agree with me that money well spent on sport will make a lot of people happy including football fans like you and me. That is not the argument, it is:
    a- Whether 2 million dollar coach can improve TM and up to what extent?
    b- Whether 2 million dollars should be channeled elsewhere in the system, like youth development or coaching classes?

    In my humble opinion, I donít think spending 2 million a year on a foreign coach is a worthwhile proposition. It is risky and speculative. If IFF has enough cash to spare, then they can take that risk. The money must be self generated by football and not to be handed by the government. If the fans refuse to attend matches and buy tickets, hence generating revenue for football, then why should the government subsidize their entertainment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by maij View Post
    I think you will agree with me that money well spent on sport will make a lot of people happy including football fans like you and me. That is not the argument, it is:
    a- Whether 2 million dollar coach can improve TM and up to what extent?
    b- Whether 2 million dollars should be channeled elsewhere in the system, like youth development or coaching classes?

    In my humble opinion, I donít think spending 2 million a year on a foreign coach is a worthwhile proposition. It is risky and speculative. If IFF has enough cash to spare, then they can take that risk. The money must be self generated by football and not to be handed by the government. If the fans refuse to attend matches and buy tickets, hence generating revenue for football, then why should the government subsidize their entertainment?
    About your first question, I think the answer is definitely positive. I have two reasons. First look at the best football countries in Asia, countries like Japan, Korea, SA and even Australia. They all hire foreign coaches as they think it works better for them. I don't see why it can work for them and not for us. I also don't think they all are doing the wrong thing. My second reason is the comparison between our own performances during the last two Asian Cups with foreign and Iranian coaches, and still Branko was not even a $1mil foreign coach. Also look how much a decent coach like Ivic improved our TM.

    About your second question, I think a country with $80b sales from oil can afford to pay $2m to a her national football coach, and still have the money to spend on youth and football clubs. Of course considering the amount of popularity of football among the people. This is just my own opinion.

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    IMHO,......
    Niether "foundation first ",approach would help us,...
    Nor ," watching our expenses " approach.........................
    The " parrallel approach" may be more practical !!

    1-Islamic republic,who spends billions on a fony Nuclear energy,to no avail, and spend millions on hamas, jahad,hezbullah,Iraq,etc,etc,........obviuosly,has no sence of proyorities in mind,and its waisting the wealth of a nation in rediculus magnitude.................we as football fans, are not responsible to help the islamic regim, as the nation itself wants us to have the money than the hezbullah.

    2- Lenin,used to say, "quantity is more important than quality" !!, and see where Soviets ended up............... , latin countries are example of a countries with imbalance of proyorities,and so are many other countries..........., in todays economy, you have to " fake it,till you make it " !!!


    Football, has history and culture of its own,and can,and should develop regardless of a country's industrial development..........it is food for the " SOLE " of a nation,it is poepole's aspiration !, it is hope ,it is what a world need, a world without borders, a world that wants to be united !,a world that does not devalue a set of people , just because they make less money,or have internal problems !

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    Quote Originally Posted by TM-Fan View Post
    About your first question, I think the answer is definitely positive. I have two reasons. First look at the best football countries in Asia, countries like Japan, Korea, SA and even Australia. They all hire foreign coaches as they think it works better for them. I don't see why it can work for them and not for us. I also don't think they all are doing the wrong thing. My second reason is the comparison between our own performances during the last two Asian Cups with foreign and Iranian coaches, and still Branko was not even a $1mil foreign coach. Also look how much a decent coach like Ivic improved our TM.
    Hiring Foreign coaches .....Well so does Bangladesh , Thailand , China , Guam , Sri Lanka and virtually the whole of AFC countries...Now , how come these countries do not win championships? can you give the reasons why employing them does not work too well for them ?
    It is a myth to think that hiring a coach of high level will guarantee you success. if it was that simple , Arab teams would have been World Cup winners every four years.

    Success in football is much more than what money can buys.

    Quote Originally Posted by TM-Fan View Post
    About your second question, I think a country with $80b sales from oil can afford to pay $2m to a her national football coach, and still have the money to spend on youth and football clubs. Of course considering the amount of popularity of football among the people. This is just my own opinion.
    It is NOT the matter that if they can afford it or not , it is matter of priorities and necessities.
    If I have 2 million in my bank , I wont go and buy an executive jet because I can afford...that is total waste of money.

    Now , on your argument about the government providing or subsidizing entertainment for the people. Great idea , but why should it be confined to Football fans? Not every Iranian is a football fan , but almost 3/4 of the younger population , especially girls , love going to cinema , why not subsidize their entertainment if government is willing to spend on football ? These people are Iranians and entitled to support as well as football fans. Why not buy tickets for cinema goers as well?

    I think you caught my drift....once again , it is a matter of priorities..

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by maij View Post
    Hiring Foreign coaches .....Well so does Bangladesh , Thailand , China , Guam , Sri Lanka and virtually the whole of AFC countries...Now , how come these countries do not win championships? can you give the reasons why employing them does not work too well for them ?
    It is a myth to think that hiring a coach of high level will guarantee you success. if it was that simple , Arab teams would have been World Cup winners every four years.

    Success in football is much more than what money can buys.



    It is NOT the matter that if they can afford it or not , it is matter of priorities and necessities.
    If I have 2 million in my bank , I wont go and buy an executive jet because I can afford...that is total waste of money.

    Now , on your argument about the government providing or subsidizing entertainment for the people. Great idea , but why should it be confined to Football fans? Not every Iranian is a football fan , but almost 3/4 of the younger population , especially girls , love going to cinema , why not subsidize their entertainment if government is willing to spend on football ? These people are Iranians and entitled to support as well as football fans. Why not buy tickets for cinema goers as well?

    I think you caught my drift....once again , it is a matter of priorities..
    I mentioned those countries, as they are similar to Iran in terms of level of the national teams and the level of their local coaches which result from their and our relatively short football history and exposure to the international football.

    I brought an example the other time and I repeat here. Football has recently developed into a complicated technique because of the money that is involved. In a way, we can compare a football coach to an engineer. You cannot train a bunch of electrical engineer in Iran's universities and expect them to design, say, a DVD player for you. You cannot teach them those techniques by sending them to short term trainings abroad either. They will need extensive experience for years in a high tech company to learn the details of the design. Alternatively, you can hire a few experts from abroad and in the process Iranian engineers will also learn from them during the years. Same goes about our football coaches as well.

    About the second part, of course it is a matter of priority. In your previous post, you mentioned why not spend the $2m on roads and the poor. What I was trying to say was that in my opinion, football is important enough to get $2m for coach as so many people in Iran have passion about it.

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