TM-News-Vol. 5

[Sly]

Sly jan. In zehniyate joda kardane jensiyathaa barmigarde be zehniyate eslami ke ertebaate miyaane zan va marde "gharibe" raa gonah va sharmaavaar midanad. Eslam dar HAMEYE zaminehaaye zendegie iranihaa az nazare farhangi yek dasti daare, ham az tarighe mostaghim va gheire-mostaghim.

In zehniyat dar farhange masihi ham vojod daashte. AMMA kheili az keshvarhaaye masihi digar az in chizhaa gozashtan chon secular/jahani shodan.
Masalan dar Argentina, Italia, Porteghaal va.. zan o mard ba ham ghati hastand va tafakore "sharm" o "gonah" dige naghshe besyaar kamrangi daare.

The funny thing is, the people I'm talking about are all non-religious! This has rooted in our culture that bad! The expression of dokhtara ba dokhtara - pesara ba pesara was even mentioned many times when I was a kid. and then people think we are culturally advanced.

[tooleh khers]

Ah feminism how lovely. Despite all your progressive words, i pesonally won't allow my sisters and wife to attend a football stadium. They can attend the female matches if they are interested. I want to be able to freely shout and curse at the opposite team, and i won't do that when there are Iranian female fans standing next to me or present in the stadium, also i don't want my sisters and wife to hear these obscenities, most guys i know share this opinion.

You won't allow?! Who are you to allow or not? Also your right to shout and act the way you want should come before women attending matches?! It is definitely not a culture thing. At least not the majority's. Yes there are a minority religiously cultured group maximum around 5-6 million out of the 80 who adhere to this "culture".

[St_Mark]

Well we will see about that. I've heard these stories before lad. Fact is that Iran is and always has been a conservative country, to the point that Reza Shah had to force women to take their headscarf off in order to modernise our country, later his son continued the Families policies of modernization, and the rest is history. When a country goes beserk after a scene of nudity in a cinema during the era of Shah, that should tell you enough. IR is not some foreign entity that is forcing the people to live by its religious laws, the religious and cultural values of IR are very much rooted in the Iranian society. Despite the anti IR propaganda you read and hear about in the West.

All these gender base discrimination arguments we hear about and you posted, these are Western standards, norms and values that have been brought to Iran through cultural imperialism. Iranian men are also not allowed to watch games of the female teams in stadiums.

In non of the Islamic Arab countries are females forbidden to attend men's football matches, which just shows you that it's an Iranian cultural thing of not allowing women to men's football games and vice versa.

Bad behaviour of men in stadiums is far worse in Europe than in Iran by the way. Difference is that Iranian men don't want women attending men's games because they feel their women should not be exposed to their bad behaviour (cursing), while Iranian men rarely resort to violence in stadiums unlike Europe.

You have a peculiar concept of culture.
Restrictions that both Pahlavi and IRI imposed on populations are not supported by majority of people.
Pahlavi dynasty was a dictatorship and foreign installed and ultimately replaced by a revolution. Revolutionary regime came into power mostly by peaceful means (in compare to other revolutions) with moderate demands that later on replaced by radical policies without support of masses.

Both regimes have tried to mold people’s behavior and conducts around their doctrine. They imposed restrictions and policies contrary to ideas and aspiration of majority Iranian. What people do under pressure and fear from government does not represent their beliefs (culture).
People (Animals too) in general react and act very different when they are kept into confined of different environments. Facing harsh and
Hostile environment people react very different even violent in compare to friendly and peaceful environment.

Under harsh socioeconomic conditions laced with corruptions and injustice when young males go through hardship to attend stadiums that lacks basic needs (even sanitized toilets) to watch a game they are a time bombs. A simple perceived mistake by a referee could spark fans to ugly and nasty response. We should be glad they released their anger verbally)than burning the bus outside of stadiums. These are the result of bad policy, bad planning and shortcomings of officials.

If this unhealthy environment change in stadiums nasty insults and chants will reduced drastically if not disappear. You were correct when you said men tend to behave nicer when ladies are around that should apply in stadium as well. Majority of Iranian are well-behaved in public.

As I mentioned before I think Majority of Iranian are moderate Muslims and don't support these restriction. Main reason government imposes this restriction because they perceive given the choice people will chose differently.

Majority population of women in urban areas is educated and capable of making their choice.
I believe given the choice majority will choose to not wear imposed hijab and some will attend stadiums.
I realize you think differently, no point to push it further.

[Ardalan]

The funny thing is, the people I'm talking about are all non-religious! This has rooted in our culture that bad! The expression of dokhtara ba dokhtara - pesara ba pesara was even mentioned many times when I was a kid. and then people think we are culturally advanced.

Dorost migi Sly jan. Dar bareye mazhabi boodan nist, zehniyate eslaami rafte tooye DELE farhange maa va raftare ejtemaiye maa ra kontrol mikone.

In emroz shoro nashode, harfe chandin va chandin gharne. Risheye dokhtara ba dohktara, pesarha ba pesarha dar Iran yek TABOOYE eslamie ke dar farhange maa kheili vaghte jaa oftade.

[Ardalan]

Raftan ya naraftane zanha va dokhtarhaa be varzeshgaah gozineye ZANHA va DOKHTARHA bayad baashe, na entekhabe mardhaa.

Hala mardha badeshoon biyaan (ke aslan fekr nemikonam injori bashad). Be tokhme chape asbe hazrate Abbas.

[perspolis#1]

Would you care to elaborate in what way we are more advanced in that department than our neighbors, let alone far more advanced?

We are facing a regression now, at many points in history have had more rights than the women of our neighboring countries. Thats the only point I'm making.

Some of our neighbors have only just allowed women to drive and still deny them basic schooling.

While we still have a ways to go ourselves, it is painful to see places like Saudi allow women in stadiums purely for PR points...
while we have proof that we were capable of the same and much more decades ago.

[sirvan]

You won't allow?! Who are you to allow or not? Also your right to shout and act the way you want should come before women attending matches?! It is definitely not a culture thing. At least not the majority's. Yes there are a minority religiously cultured group maximum around 5-6 million out of the 80 who adhere to this "culture".

My wife and i have this weird dynamic between us, when she says that she doesn't want me to stay up late during work days gaming or hanging out with friends, and where i say that i don't want her to hang out with person X because i feel that that person is not trustworthy, and vice versa. Call it weird but it works for us

Interesting statistics tooleh khers. Eventhough i don't have access to the sources that provide you with these statistics, all i'm saying is that out of all the guys that i know personally and others that i have spoken here, roughly 80% doesn't want women in football stadiums to watch men's games. You can take my word for it, or not i really don't care.

And their arguments are mostly about not wanting women to hear them swearing.

[Sly]

Ah feminism how lovely. Despite all your progressive words, i pesonally won't allow my sisters and wife to attend a football stadium. They can attend the female matches if they are interested. I want to be able to freely shout and curse at the opposite team, and i won't do that when there are Iranian female fans standing next to me or present in the stadium, also i don't want my sisters and wife to hear these obscenities, most guys i know share this opinion.

Won't allow? Dude, it should be up to them whether they want to go there and hear all the bad words or not! You can not decide for other people only because you have issues with it! You don't want to see them hearing bad words, fair enough! But then you should be the one who skips going to the stadium. Women are wise enough to decide for themselves where to go or not! Who are we men to decide it for them?!

[perspolis#1]

Why do you diaspora members want to force your worldviews on the Iranian people? Haven't you learned by now that you can't force Western values on Iranians?

Please refer to the posts in the General Forum but the above is an ironic statement as most of these current policies were enacted by Khomeini..."a diaspora member who left Iran many many years ago and came back to tell people how they should live their lives and run the country"

[KC McElroy]

And their arguments are mostly about not wanting women to hear them swearing.

But you said Iranian men don't swear in front of women. Didn't you?

[Sly]

We are facing a regression now, at many points in history have had more rights than the women of our neighboring countries. Thats the only point I'm making.

Some of our neighbors have only just allowed women to drive and still deny them basic schooling.

While we still have a ways to go ourselves, it is painful to see places like Saudi allow women in stadiums purely for PR points...
while we have proof that we were capable of the same and much more decades ago.

Ok but here you are talking about women's right. and I agree with that. But before I thought we were talking about the "man-woman" relation.

[sirvan]

Please refer to the posts in the General Forum but the above is an ironic statement as most of these current policies were enacted by Khomeini..."a diaspora member who left Iran many many years ago and came back to tell people how they should live their lives and run the country"

Most of these policies were enacted by Khomeini? Do you know anything about Iran and it's history? Iran wasn't Paris until Khomeini came and took us back to medieval Arabia with his Indian heritage and Arabic accent. These policies, customs and cultural conservative rules were present in Iran long before Khomeini was born.

Seriously where do you guys come from?

[sirvan]

We are facing a regression now, at many points in history have had more rights than the women of our neighboring countries. Thats the only point I'm making.

Some of our neighbors have only just allowed women to drive and still deny them basic schooling.

While we still have a ways to go ourselves, it is painful to see places like Saudi allow women in stadiums purely for PR points...
while we have proof that we were capable of the same and much more decades ago.

Women barely attended men's football games in stadiums during Shah's era, if at all.

[Sly]

Raftan ya naraftane zanha va dokhtarhaa be varzeshgaah gozineye ZANHA va DOKHTARHA bayad baashe, na entekhabe mardhaa.

Hala mardha badeshoon biyaan (ke aslan fekr nemikonam injori bashad). Be tokhme chape asbe hazrate Abbas.

This!!!

Sirvan read it and learn!

[KC McElroy]

Women barely attended men's football games in stadiums during Shah's era, if at all.

So who are you calling a liar, me or my female relatives?