What Karimi Told Shojai Before The Second Half

[smanhoobi]

Of course in Angola Game.

I dont know you guys. I watched T3. And they showed the part before the second half.

As the team came out of the recess, Karimi was talking to Shojai. Ofcourse, what I say is JUST a guess and nothing else based on reading the body motions and lips. I was wondering if you guys saw it and what you think he was saying to him. here is my guess:

Karimi: Toopo vardar dirible bezan boro jelo.
Shojai: Een beh man gofteh een karo nakon akheh
Karimi: Oono velesh kon

Again, this is just based on a guess. I wish we had a lips reading expert. But, if you can watch the part again, just tell me what you think the conversation was.

I posted this in our forum and some tend to agree. I was wondering if you guys have it recorded and can watch it and tell me what you think.

Just, put your Karimi sympathy aside. Lets see whether there is an agreement, then defend him for it to death. I dont care. At least, THIS ONE is not hearsay. Its something we can figure out with a little attention.

[Amin_]

Does anyone have that part??

Please put it up then...

Thanx

[AliOlia]

no1 has it?

[MoJo23]

Damn, i just checked but unfortunately i did not tape that part.

Smanhoobi Jan, if you have that part. Can you please put it up. Thanks in advance.

[smanhoobi]

Guys.

I have it on vcr. Have not hooked up my video capture card yet.

Lets see if anyone has it handy. If not, I ll try to capture it.

But, I swear to god, looks like that is what was going on.A few who could look at it again, says the same. Thats why I wanted to confirm with more.

Lets wait a couple of days. If nothing, I will try to do it.

Thanks

[faraz]

hmm...I will take a look at the Iran game again - so this is when they're walking out to play the 2nd half of Iran vs Angola?

[smanhoobi]

yes, faraz jaan.

If you have tapesh version, its right before they enter the pitch.

[50Toman]

Anyone?

[Haf3z]

I actually saw it on Swedish television Soheil jaan. I have downloaded the game from PFDC too, but I haven't checked if that part is included in the PFDC files. Anyhow I noticed exactly the same thing. To me it seemed like Karimi was trying to give Shojaei some advice about how to advance on the opponents midfield without losing the ball while Shojaei was a bit sceptical about the ideas. I'm not sure though, I might be wrong.

[smanhoobi]

What I am interested to know though, is not whether Karimi gave some "advice". Its very customery for older players to give advices to younger ones. Nothing wrong with that.

What I am interested in is to know whether Karimi directed Shojai to something against coaches desire by telling him to ignore it. Thats what is I want to know.

[ehsanjd]

Actually, I think Karimi told him the opposite -- not to dribble too much and to pass more instead. The problem was that Shojaei simply wasn't trained enough to execute a good passing game (it took Karimi himself months to learn it properly at Bayern).

You can see this by the way Shojaei played in that game: whenever he got the ball he would (rather clumsily) try to pass it to someone upfront instead of moving up with it himself and show off some of his dribbling skills.

[smanhoobi]

Actually, I think Karimi told him the opposite -- not to dribble too much and to pass more instead. The problem was that Shojaei simply wasn't trained enough to execute a good passing game (it took Karimi himself months to learn it properly at Bayern).
You can see this by the way Shojaei played in that game: whenever he got the ball he would (rather clumsily) try to pass it to someone upfront instead of moving up with it himself and show off some of his dribbling skills.

You see. I saw it exactly the opposite. Meaning that , what I said was exactly what the conversation was. BUT shojai eventually sticked to what Branko told him to do.

It was obvious that Shojai was trying to pass more than dribble.

Well, looks like I have to provide the clip somehow. That way, we have more people watching and we can get to the bottom of this.

DONT look at what Shojai did during the game. Just focus on the conversation.

Hopefully, this weekend.

[perspolees]

You see. I saw it exactly the opposite. Meaning that , what I said was exactly what the conversation was. BUT shojai eventually sticked to what Branko told him to do.
It was obvious that Shojai was trying to pass more than dribble.
Well, looks like I have to provide the clip somehow. That way, we have more people watching and we can get to the bottom of this.
DONT look at what Shojai did during the game. Just focus on the conversation.
Hopefully, this weekend.

easier thing would be just read what he said!!
he said that karimi was giving him support that he could if he wanted to dribble and that he does have the ability to do so...this is what he answered when he was asked directly about the matter...

karimi and what he did is getting out of control, he did not do anything that big and disruptive by measures of this world cup or any professional player... these are cheap acts to hide the real defects of iranian football! did we even have this much talk when rezaee beat the shit out of badavi!!? or all of a sudden disciplin hog came out of the clown called Branko!? what a joke he is!

[smanhoobi]

Whether he was a "clawn" or not, he was still the head coach of that team. His words and desires and vision MUST be applied by the players.

You guys are all professionals. I wonder what would YOU do if you had an employee who would not give a shit to your desires that YOU see fit.

In that incident, Karimi is clearly directing Shojai against Branko's will. There is no question in my mind about that.

Defending such a player or such an act will not be good for our football. You are basically defending what we fought against for few years now.

Again, it does not matter what Branko was. He was still the responsible party for those games. And as soon as Magath knows this, Karimi's time is over in Bayern. Cause professional football, a professional coach would never disregard such an attitude.

[perspolees]

Whether he was a "clawn" or not, he was still the head coach of that team. His words and desires and vision MUST be applied by the players.
You guys are all professionals. I wonder what would YOU do if you had an employee who would not give a shit to your desires that YOU see fit.
In that incident, Karimi is clearly directing Shojai against Branko's will. There is no question in my mind about that.
Defending such a player or such an act will not be good for our football. You are basically defending what we fought against for few years now.
Again, it does not matter what Branko was. He was still the responsible party for those games. And as soon as Magath knows this, Karimi's time is over in Bayern. Cause professional football, a professional coach would never disregard such an attitude.

If I show that an employee could push me around, if I do not hold reasonable rules, If I say that no matter who does what certain players will never play and certain ones will, if I show that I am a clown, if I show that I do hold double standards, if I show that I am soorakh then I will be toyed with. period! Branko was a gutless chicken head for a brain. period!

What did Branko say when rezaee hit badavi!!? did he control the situation.... was rezaee benched?

I am somewhat amazed at your interest to stretch this beyond imagination!!
do you know more than shojaee who himself in an interview denied all teh stuff that you are saying? you can speculate to the fact that it may be this or that as a cause to why shojaee is saying what he is saying...bbut the truth is the iranian team had severe defects and its back bone was ****ed up...this was because of lack of leadership and the main head roll starts from top to bottom...

On that screwed up ground ( byt he way that I am talking about for the past three years) all teh scenes seen are a perfect match....irane eslami az in gohi ke hast behtar nemeeshe..oon meeshe kochesh, oon meeshe kapitane namarde avazeesh..oonam meeshe jadoogaresh!!

branko showed that he is the weakest, the most gutless chicken for brains coach that iran has ever had...

did karimi had flaws..you bet! in a word or relativity who is the biggest screw up story of teh wc for camp Iran!? no doubt the chicken shit Branko!

[zzgloo]

Not being able to understand farsi,by Branko,defenetly opened the door for players to say what ever they wanted,and whenever they wanted.

[perspolees]

zzjan lol
branko had many defects farsi peeshkesh....
I dont think understanding what rezaee did to badavi needed any farsi yet he fielded rezaee the next game..you set the stone with your wrong doings...

[IRN Rugby Playa]

this conversation happened infront of me in the stadium....i was literly behind the reserves!!!! he was ont he coushin boundry line when he was talking to shojaei.......i am very eager to find out wut they were saying!!!! karimi seemed to be telling him " somthing new" cos he was explaining to him a drill "preknowned" but then karimi was showing him to do somthing else in that drill

[smanhoobi]

Perspolees jaan:

My problem with you is that you are constantly defending an idea by all means. Meaning, you try to picture Branko as an useless evil at the cost of defending a very wrong, "unprofessional" act.

Everything has a place. Every criticism is valid. But, we should not criticise at all costs. Some of the ways we find to JUST criticise has detrimental effects for the FUTURE of our football. Hail, it has detrimental effect for our COUNTRY.

You say, "you set the stone with your wrong doings".
I say Perspolees jaan, YOU set the stone and you destroy the concept of professionality with some of your wrong sayings".

I know you are a very dedicated fan. Everything you say, comes from your heart when the issue is TeamMelli. I just dont understand why you always have to find stuff with which you deny the obvious for the sake of fixing another obvious.

As far as what these players say. The reason why I wanted everyone to look at that clip was for US to find out about the truth OURSELVES, and WITHOUT being exposed to BS s from either the players or journalists with some agenda. I basically gave you the option to do it yourself and NOT buy things at its face value.

I do not accept Shojai's explanations of events. Neither do I care what Karimi says cause according to the writings, he has said at least three versions of why he did not accept to play in Angola game. So, thats their business. I have a BRAIN and a set of eyes. I look at some facts, use my common sense and get what has been said and will decide based on all those.

Thanks
Soheil

[perspolees]

Perspolees jaan:
My problem with you is that you are constantly defending an idea by all means. Meaning, you try to picture Branko as an useless evil at the cost of defending a very wrong, "unprofessional" act.

wrong!! Branko was and is an idiot. karimi's act was childish but the likes are seen plenty in the highest of professional football ranks. what is with all due stupid is after the disaster that was handed to our nation of football this crazy notion of lets blame it on karimis chidish act!! whats even more rediculous is going above and beyond what the man himself has responded to the question...agha shojaee khodesh goft az in khabara naboode...now you can carry on with whatever your campaign is!...



Everything has a place. Every criticism is valid. But, we should not criticise at all costs. Some of the ways we find to JUST criticise has detrimental effects for the FUTURE of our football. Hail, it has detrimental effect for our COUNTRY.
You say, "you set the stone with your wrong doings".
I say Perspolees jaan, YOU set the stone and you destroy the concept of professionality with some of your wrong sayings".

i am sorry to tell you that you are very immature in your understanding of the situation. You are on top of it really naive!
what I am saying and have been saying you guys are touching now three years after!! that teh root ground of our football lacks structure...on this bed if you think that we can get a better coach you are wrong. On this bed that a coach lets go of the wrong doins of the other sogolis if you expect lessons and professionalism you are wrong. professionalism does not come from the thin air..you go and build it, when you have an unprofessional coach and teacher what do you expect from the pupil?
your claims of professionality just shows how you do not have an understanding what professionalism is and how it should be achieved!



I know you are a very dedicated fan. Everything you say, comes from your heart when the issue is TeamMelli. I just dont understand why you always have to find stuff with which you deny the obvious for the sake of fixing another obvious.

wrong again. I am all hearts but my heart is ALWAYS dominated by the gray matter between the ears. nobody is denying anything here. read the posts. drop your blinds!
our nation of islam has ahmadinejad as the head, branko as the coach and daei as the. all of these boo gandoos are a perfect match!
Karimi did an unprofessional thing but in a relative world his wrong doings in my opinion is not even comparable to the others. hala in vasat professionalisme karimi is the main topic ha!!?




As far as what these players say. The reason why I wanted everyone to look at that clip was for US to find out about the truth OURSELVES, and WITHOUT being exposed to BS s from either the players or journalists with some agenda. I basically gave you the option to do it yourself and NOT buy things at its face value.
I do not accept Shojai's explanations of events. Neither do I care what Karimi says cause according to the writings, he has said at least three versions of why he did not accept to play in Angola game. So, thats their business. I have a BRAIN and a set of eyes. I look at some facts, use my common sense and get what has been said and will decide based on all those.


is this you that said this at the beginning of this thread "Again, this is just based on a guess. I wish we had a lips reading expert. But, if you can watch the part again, just tell me what you think the conversation was"
lololol then you claim that you got eyes and brains!!? at best you are guesstimating and easily saying that you dont care who says what but seems like you are confused!! on one hand you seem to need a lip reading expert and on the other hand....aslan bikhyal baba..

with all due respect I do not see any logic whatsoever in what you see and what your brains analyze!! and to prove what!!? based on a guess u r trying to say karimi was unprofessional...baba bashe har che to begee...but can I suggest to pull out of bahse gooze magas!!shit load of stuff and much bigger ones went wrong and you are stuck with this!?

I am sure the next important topic on this board of professors will be foreigner coach vs iranian coach topic lololol...key mikhayn yad begeereen..

that our team is unprofessional and has players that do bad things!! baba wake up and smell the roses!!
our team was in a dissarray. There were fights inside the camp. and much more important stuff than what karimi told or what you think he told shojaee...lolol rediculous to waste time on this stupid topic!


Thanks
Soheil

see red

[Doctor DOOM]

there's a saying in english that goes something like this ( altho' I have forgotten the exact words ) :

"Respect is not given. Respect is EARNED"

this explains a lot about why progressively and continuously, layers lost respect for the incompetent coach.
becoz he never did anything to EARN it.

he stagnated and remained still, where he was years ago.

you cannot expect players to respect such a man.
hence, you shdnt be surprised to see disrespect for a FAILURE.



--------------

as far as what karimi said to shoja'ee ... despite the fact that I didnt want to get caught in this issue and topic , .... I must say we take things like our imagination too bloody far.

the simple fact is:
was any of you ppl there when he said whatever he said, to shoja'ee?

so lets stop hypothetizing , and stick to the closest thing we can have for the truth.
and that is what shoja'ee himself, said on record and in the press.
and that doesnt seem one bit harmful to the team.


some of us are campaigning against karimi , resembling a witch-hunt.
karimi is just a player.
and the area of influence of a single player is not wide enough ... certainly not as wide as the influence of a coach or manager or IFF head.

why are we fooling ourselves?
or are we trying to distract from the truth? do some of us have a hidden ( I'll use their own word ) "agenda" ? ;)
huh?


it's like if a car breaks down, due to massive engine and transmission problems, ... basically mechanical and electrical problems, .....we suddenly blame one of the seat belts for all its faults !!
:rolleyes: :cool:

[smanhoobi]

Stupid it might be Perspolees jaan. But its an issue that is quite important to me. I dont see it as a root of problem, but I see it as an issue that needs to be attended and needs to be fixed.

You see aziz jaan. At the peak of Parvin issue, when a lot of fans and even perspoleesi s were claiming his incompetency and his mafia, you strongly supported the man.

So basically, Parvin was not the reason for Perspolees's failure in your eyes while some good numbers thought otherwise.

The first question that rises here is this:
Who is the judge of that? Who should judge whether your claim was valid or mine? Who?

My answer lies in what you just mentioned in your post. IF Parvin had all the means and support, we could have judged much better. IF Parvin had the money to get enough players, to build a practice pitch, to do this and to do that, THEN we had a referrence to make. But, since he did not, we can just make calculated guesses based on the situation in hand. And that by no means, portrays what Parvin is/was exactly. Now, he was encountered with a revolution which ended his dominancy in Perspolees. End of the story.

Now, consider the same Parvin you have defended for so long and wholeheartedly. Consider him being on top of Perspolees even today. A professional, a boss that says some stuff, does some more and thinks he is right and has some supporters like you. Right? Now consider the same Parvin going against Esteghlal in a game and then encounter what Branko has encountered in world cup. Figures like Karimi who would not give a shit about him. A few others in some sort of Chaos. A few more with injuries. And he would have lost the game against Esteghlal when as Perspolees fans, we would all expect a win.

What would you say then? Would the professionality that I talked about kick in? Absolutely, it would.

YOU would have demolished the likes of Karimi. Demolished such a player who would have rebeled against the person you believe in. I gaurentee you, that Parvin was not a competent coach even in YOUR eyes. BUT, despite that, you would have gone up and down to defend him for what was done to him. Dont you? Be fair, and say yes to this.

Didnt Parvin whom you defended had favoritisms? Didnt you tell me that what Parvin was doing was a NEEDED measure against all the wrong doings of this country? Wasnt he a hero who needed to stick to some players so that Perspolees would play with their hearts? So that players would give their 100% even if they were not even paid? Didnt you say that Perspolees jaan?

Now, what has happened that when the name "parvin" is now replaced with "branko" matters changed in your eyes? Whats the difference here?

Branko favoured a few players who he thought would never back stab him. He sticked to a few in his staff because he thought they were supporting him. In a country that "patriotism" is non-existant and people sell their own flesh blood for the sake of surviving and gaining power, you cant expect anything else.

Yes, Branko played with Daei , so did Parvin with Ansarian(a figure who was fired by Ari Haan for a few weeks and then brough back by INFLUENCES again. lol ironically, some people wany Ari Haan for TeamMelli, lol) and another 10. None of them are to blame, BUT the culture behind us.

As long as we have that type of culture, the ONLY way you can get a result is by STICKING to a few. The more you expand, the more risk you are taking.

Guess what. Branko cracked and added a few he never wanted. On top of that, the people whom he trusted the most (like Mr Karimi) back stabbed him.

It is not up to me to change anything on top. I still believe in professionalism. Which means, we ought to do better when we select people. We need to focus our attention and sacrifice a few vocal cords for the sake of changing what leads to this chaos at its root. Once selected, we need to criticise in a milder way. Because this culture of us can not handle criticisms in its current level.

Anther thing we should do is to introduce the parasites of this culture. Introduce people who dont care and go beyond their professional responsibilities with the selfish aim of fixing problems that they are not responsible to fix.

As long as the hierarchy is not maintained and respected, we are doomed to fail again and again. Parvin did, Branko did, so will Guus hidding and advocaat and you name it.

Thanks
Soheil

[smanhoobi]

there's a saying in english that goes something like this ( altho' I have forgotten the exact words ) :

"Respect is not given. Respect is EARNED"

this explains a lot about why progressively and continuously, layers lost respect for the incompetent coach.
becoz he never did anything to EARN it.

he stagnated and remained still, where he was years ago.

you cannot expect players to respect such a man.
hence, you shdnt be surprised to see disrespect for a FAILURE.



--------------

as far as what karimi said to shoja'ee ... despite the fact that I didnt want to get caught in this issue and topic , .... I must say we take things like our imagination too bloody far.

the simple fact is:
was any of you ppl there when he said whatever he said, to shoja'ee?

so lets stop hypothetizing , and stick to the closest thing we can have for the truth.
and that is what shoja'ee himself, said on record and in the press.
and that doesnt seem one bit harmful to the team.


some of us are campaigning against karimi , resembling a witch-hunt.
karimi is just a player.
and the area of influence of a single player is not wide enough ... certainly not as wide as the influence of a coach or manager or IFF head.

why are we fooling ourselves?
or are we trying to distract from the truth? do some of us have a hidden ( I'll use their own word ) "agenda" ? ;)
huh?


it's like if a car breaks down, due to massive engine and transmission problems, ... basically mechanical and electrical problems, .....we suddenly blame one of the seat belts for all its faults !!
:rolleyes: :cool:

I said in the first post Doki jaan, that I am just bringing this to the attention of people. I said, I do not conclude anything out of this.

However, the mere fact that Karimi acted very irresponsible does not come from this clip alone (IF it is true and to me it is[personal matter]). I am not judging Karimi based on this clip alone. I am judging him based on what I heard from people I trust (hail many were hard core Karimi supporters) and his refusal to play when asked.

Thats it.

PS: And I believe you are wrong with your car example. If you just design a pedegree of Football (and not just the one in Iran) you will notice where the most important element in success lies.

[Doctor DOOM]

well, soheil jan,

the DIFFERENCE, ... and it is a BIG one, ........ is that the area of influence of a player is far narrower and smaller than the influence of a coach.
I beleive I did say this earlier.

a coach can make or break a team with his decisions and actions, attitude and philosophy, his competence and ability ( or lack of it, in our case ).

a player, even at his worst, can damage himself, and a part of the team.
afterwhich, it all comes back to the coach ( once again ) and his decision to use this disruptive player or not.
even expullsion is allowed.

so no matter how we twist and turn.
it all comes down to team management.
and this is where we got hit the MOST in this WC.

[yashar_fasihnia]

well, soheil jan,

the DIFFERENCE... and it is a BIG one, ........ is that the area of influence of a player is far narrower and smaller than the influence of a coach.I beleive I did say this earlier.

a coach can make or break a team with his decisions and actions, attitude and philosophy, his competence and ability ( or lack of it, in our case ).

a player, even at his worst, can damage himself, and a part of the team.
afterwhich, it all comes back to the coach ( once again ) and his decision to use this disruptive player or not.
even expullsion is allowed.

so no matter how we twist and turn.

it all comes down to team management.
and this is where we got hit the MOST in this WC.

sokhani ham az man, madare aroos:
Iran is a country where anything and everything is possible which again relates to our culture and "ostokhun sazi" of our nation!
this is in regard to the "influence of player" vs "influence of coach" argument.
and we have a live example of it infront of our eyes: ali daei.

[smanhoobi]

well, soheil jan,

the DIFFERENCE, ... and it is a BIG one, ........ is that the area of influence of a player is far narrower and smaller than the influence of a coach.


And I disagree completely.

I think, no matter how good a coach might be, the players determine the end result of the game. Hence, players, their determinations, stamina and chemistry is a MUCH more important factor than anything else.

In your eyes, Branko Ivankovic was useless. I brought Mayeli Kohan's incident to prove a point. To prove that, even when a coach is as crappy as MK, team had always a chance because they sticked together. I said that by assuming that Branko, in your eyes, is as useless as Mayeli Kohan. In my eyes and based on my opinion, that is not true though. It was just an assumption to have a shared point of view so that I can prove another point.

I said Doki jaan. Draw Football's pedigree (Hierarchy) and check it out. It is so obvious which level is the most important level in obtaining results.

Other levels makes you be stronger. But players act like an all or none. Meaning that their collective work can either destroy a team, or it can cause success.

[zzgloo]

And I disagree completely.
I think, no matter how good a coach might be, the players determine the end result of the game. Hence, players, their determinations, stamina and chemistry is a MUCH more important factor than anything else.
In your eyes, Branko Ivankovic was useless. I brought Mayeli Kohan's incident to prove a point. To prove that, even when a coach is as crappy as MK, team had always a chance because they sticked together. I said that by assuming that Branko, in your eyes, is as useless as Mayeli Kohan. In my eyes and based on my opinion, that is not true though. It was just an assumption to have a shared point of view so that I can prove another point.
I said Doki jaan. Draw Football's pedigree (Hierarchy) and check it out. It is so obvious which level is the most important level in obtaining results.
Other levels makes you be stronger. But players act like an all or none. Meaning that their collective work can either destroy a team, or it can cause success.
Dear smanhoobi.......
I believe,the point you just raised, " IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ", reason for TM failear...!!!...
What I mean is, After all,analyzing a Dynamic situation as which factor is the most vatial....I must say, it is quality of individual players !!!!
All,xxs and oos ,and the bottom line,is that In individual battles,our players, did not measure up.....The reason, the president of asian Football association just said,we need to work for better leagues in asia........just to have higher level of individual players........
makeing right dicisions at the right time.
adjusting the feet for the better angle of shoots.
not giving away the balls.
winning one on one battles
anticipating how the next 5 secounds will unfold.
understanding the game plans
understanding one's body and its preparedness.
out smarting the opponants.
etc,etc,etc.....
these,reguire not only experince,but also higher level of talent,as well as intelegence.
For the future of football in Iran.....Nothing is as important as haveing higher class of players.................which can only be acheaved,by better leagues.

[Doctor DOOM]

I am deleting my post, as I see no point in re-hashing the same issues , again and again.

ppl have their own opinions and are entitled to it.

I choose to no t talk about branko anymore ( posht-e zar-e modeh harf zadan, khoobiyat nadareh ).

we want to blame x or y or z ... .
so be it.


all I wish for is let us have POSITIVE approach to things, and not want stagnation and mediocrity.
let us all want to progress , all the time, and not be happy with occasional small bursts.

good luck to all

[Vahshi]

This discussion is rather ridiculous, however this is one way to look at it.

Would you ever see Karimi tell Magath anything? forget refusing to take the pitch (provided that actually happened), not even a hint!

The people you push around are people you have no respect for, Bronko had no respect amongst the players (a lot of fans included), Karimi simply took advantage of that.

Its simply human nature, nothing else.

PS. This is all provided that this indeed is what was said and done, its all pure speculation.