This is a Test for TM and Iranian Football [Archive] - PFDC : Best Hangout for Iranian Football Fans

smanhoobi

11-23-2005, 07:48 PM

BRANKO WILL AND SHOULD STAY

The pressure and all the rumors surrounding Iranian Football and its issue with Branko is a Real Test for the destiny of football in Iran.

It is without a shadow of a doubt that TM will do much better than what they are doing today when they step in the pitch a day in 2006 in Germany. This is so natural and obvious. And it will definitely happen even if you have a person Like MayeliKohan as the head coach.

Football is played more with desire, compassion, motivation and professionality. More than half of the potential of a team comes from thses factors alone. Tactical inputs can get you through with a game, but it is not a necessity for being there and loosing "Good".

Therefore, we will always play "Good" in world cup. And again and again, irrelevant people will get the credit for it and we will have this circus time and time again in the future world cups to come. And hence, we regress, we loose credibility among the top Coaches in the world and hence the dirty intentions will be achieved. Less and less people who really have a say in football in will remain and hence their presense or absence will not matter for "Nuclear Iran".

It is a fact that any organisation or government is in enourmous threat (Mainly in 3rd world Countries) when they can not have control over things or individuals. Whether that is Karimi, Daei or anyone for that matter. Bringing success to that level, will bring with it a very big threat. Cause then, those individuals and things will have so much support from the commoner that stopping them means destroying yourself.

If let alone, Iranian football is going through a very systematic approach towards professionalism. With introduction of Branko and Co, although we have not shown the best that we can be, Irans football has changed quite a bit. Knowledge, systematic and scientific approach has been introduced. All of this with the least amount of infra-structure.

I am very bitter today. Bitter that many of us dont see the "Peecheshe Moo" instead of the "Moo". Yet again, we are sacrificing a systemic approach, a step toward professional mentality for rotted and historic ideas or for being a puppet of rulers. Its a pitty.

I am extremely confident that these rumors will not have its intended effect. If it happens, it will happen with major changes in Iranian football including the resignation of so many people who have tried so hard in the past few months to achieve something. Are they perfect? No, they arent. But as long as we are not, our culture is not, and our mentalities are like this, we even cant think about perfection. So what we got, is the best we could get.

I certainly will be one of the people who will kiss goodbye TM IF that happens.

Thanks
Soheil

Amirza

11-23-2005, 09:44 PM

It is without a shadow of a doubt that TM will do much better than what they are doing today when they step in the pitch a day in 2006 in Germany.

Unsubstantiated claim !!

This is so natural and obvious. And it will definitely happen even if you have a person Like MayeliKohan as the head coach.

Another one !!

Football is played more with desire, compassion, motivation and professionality. More than half of the potential of a team comes from thses factors alone. - Very Wrong. Technique, Tactics, and Physics - all come before the subsidiary factors like motivation, or even experience.

Therefore, we will always play "Good" in world cup.

Why ? another unsubstantiated claim.

If let alone, Iranian football is going through a very systematic approach towards professionalism. With introduction of Branko and Co, although we have not shown the best that we can be, Irans football has changed quite a bit. Knowledge, systematic and scientific approach has been introduced. All of this with the least amount of infra-structure.

I agree with that except I would not call the move "systematic" - how can it be when there is no infra-structure ?

I am very bitter today. Bitter that many of us dont see the "Peecheshe Moo" instead of the "Moo". -
You claim to see Peechesh Moo - yet show no signs of seeing Moo !!

Yet again, we are sacrificing a systemic approach

Again - we have no "system" hence no systematic approach.

In conclusion - I will say this:
We need to add system, tactics, plans, and plays to our football. Replacing Branco is a mistake, unless we plan to replace him with a specific coach who can add the above to our team. At this point in gtime I know of no vatani coach capable to bring system, plans, and tactics to our football. Therefore replacing Branco with an Iranian coach will definitly mean disaster. As for a replacement for Branco - we must approach top non Iranian coaches with that specific goal. In interviewing these coaches, we must ask one question only. What are some examples of your offensive and defensive plays, and how do you teach them to our kids ?

Martin-Reza

11-24-2005, 09:20 AM

Ok, you want facts.

Positive campaigns: Asian Games Gold 2002, WAFF 2004 gold, Asian Cup bronze, early World Cup qualification 2005

Negative campaigns: WAFF 2002 bronze, in which he tried to find the perfect U23 squad against mainly full teams though.

35 matches played, 26 matches won, 4 drawn, 5 lost (2 competitive and 3 friendlies: Kuwait, Germany, Korea) since Branko's reappointment in 2003. Compare, during Shahrokhi's spell in 2003 we had 6 matches, 2 wins, 1 draw and 3 losses!

Now your facts please - and your assessment of tactics or gameplan are no facts but also unsubstantiated claims.

Doctor DOOM

11-24-2005, 10:59 AM

35 matches played, 26 matches won,

shall we talk about which teams ?;) .... and whether that is to relieve us of our worries about the WC games ?

-----------------------

soheil jan , aside from supporting branko, do you think his methods are going ensure TM playing well at the WC ?
I do not want to hark back to 4 years back and busan or waff or ... .

I am tallking about the present and now.
5 years down the line, and considering the trend the TM has been in during the last year.
which , btw, is a more correct indicator of TM's state, than the games it played 5 -4 years back.

Amirza

11-24-2005, 11:15 AM

Martin Jaan -
what's up with the blind unconditional support for IFF and Branco.
You present the 2002 Asian cup campaign as a FACT for which we have to keep Branco ?? That team did not have the problems we have in 2005. I guarantee you anyone including you can put together a team from IPL players and win 20 of 30 games against the usual Asian competition.

Please try to get this - We are not discussing how to stay amongst the elite in Asia here. The goal is to strive ahead and shine beyond Asia.

VivaItalia

11-25-2005, 09:45 PM

Soheil jan,

Harfe dele kheyliaa ro zadi.

Damet garm

Martin-Reza

11-26-2005, 07:36 AM

shall we talk about which teams ?;) .... and whether that is to relieve us of our worries about the WC games ?

Yes please. Talk about which teams. Compare the stats to the stats of other Asian teams who play similar opposition every year and compare to stats of European teams. At least for once you'd be talking about facts then and not about your personal very experimental views.

And to your information, there is a ranking which considers results and strength of opponents, it's called FIFA ranking. Branko overtook Shahrokhi's team from position 45 in October 2003 (note: he had left at position 33, December 2002 - and Asian Games matches were not counted in that back then) and lead it up to position 19 (November 2005).

But facts are not important to you anyway. Your amateurish rating of gameplay and tactics are much more important.

You present the 2002 Asian cup campaign as a FACT for which we have to keep Branco ?? That team did not have the problems we have in 2005. I guarantee you anyone including you can put together a team from IPL players and win 20 of 30 games against the usual Asian competition.
Please try to get this - We are not discussing how to stay amongst the elite in Asia here. The goal is to strive ahead and shine beyond Asia.

The 2002 Gold medal in Asian Games is a fact. Other than your (sorry, but accept the truth) worthless analysis of problems you believe to see. Other than you worthless and plainly irrational guarantee anyone of us would get a similar record as Branko with IPL players. And other than your worthless imagination we could easily shine beyond Europe if we just change the coach.

I believe your subjective judgment of the happenings let you down. You overestimate our players, heavily underestimate the opposition and therefore of course underestimate the achievements of the coach.

But in the same way you will of course, and very rightfully, not simply accept my belief. So the only thing we can talk about is facts. Facts like the achievement of the team under Branko Ivankovic compared to achievements of earlier Iranian coach, other teams, etc.

It's time to get personal analysises are fun, but they are not worth a penny if you really want to draw conclusions. So come up with facts or keep on getting lost in your subjective and emotional understanding of football.

Doctor DOOM

11-26-2005, 11:02 AM

just a little nugget :

while japan was drawing with brazil and beating greece, we were struggling to cope with the loss to jordan and just barely, by the skin of our teeth scraping through against qatar !

while we boats about a 2-1 crummy win against azerbaijan, s korea beats germany !

while we look so frightened to play china, when their crowds had done nothing but cheer for us from the beginning of the tourney (up until that game) , japan , who faced extreme opposition throughout the tourney, still shows guts to take the game to the chinese despite the immense presuure from the crowd.

while some of us are so bothered about meeting teams like panama, azerbaijan, lybia,.. ( all D grade teams ) , our rivals are playing A grade and B grade teams from europe and SA.

and these are just FEWl examples & FACTS.

------------

your "professional" (??? :o ) view of our team "gameplay and tactics" satisfies you ?
:o
so be it.
if you think this is our peak and ceiling.
suit yourself, mate.
dont expect everyone to follow such mediocrity, though.

damn right the "gameplay and tactics" of the team matters more to me than a set of numbers , most of which corresponds to beating teams like laos, panama, lybia, .... !!

you want to pull the wool over your head and not see the truth ... go ahead.
dont expect everyone else to do so, but.

Amirza

11-26-2005, 12:40 PM

Martin Jaan - you just don't get it.
Let me put it in another way you may understand.

Regardless of the success or defeats we have had in the past - out TM today has something missing. It is called "offense with a plan". Our TM needs it just as much as Chelokabab needs Somak - get it ? without Somak you can still eat and enjoy it - it's still better than hommus or any Arabian dish - but it's just not the best dish in the world. With the resources we have, ours has a chance to become one of the top footballs in the world. This is not about Dadkan or Branco - If they can bring the Somak - more power to them. But unlike you - I am just not satisfied with winning 1-0 games against the likes of Bahrain and N. Korea. I want Somak on my Kabab !!

VivaItalia

11-26-2005, 12:45 PM

Amirza

11-26-2005, 08:14 PM

Interesting that you wanna eat Somagh with AAB-GOOSHT!!

Our team is not Chelo Kabab, I hope you get it!
but you are free to eat whatever you want with your AB-Goosht, I'll stick to my own Noon-Sangak and believe me: It tastes sooooooooo good.

This is the whole problem - You are fine with ab goosht - even though you have paid for chelo kabab. I want the CK and I want Somak Too !! in fact I want an extra koobideh on the side. I may not get it in this Wc maybe not even in the next one - but I will get my order straight ;) :cool:

Dr.shark

11-27-2005, 01:09 AM

Interesting that you wanna eat Somagh with AAB-GOOSHT!!

Our team is not Chelo Kabab, I hope you get it!
but you are free to eat whatever you want with your AB-Goosht, I'll stick to my own Noon-Sangak and believe me: It tastes sooooooooo good.
with the team we have it is a shame for us to think of them as ab-goosht.
this is the team that is known as our most powerfull team ever. so at this time this is the best we have. if you think not then YOU don't think like Branko then YOU think some one or some thing must be added to the team so that it will no longer be ab-goosht. that means new players must be added to the team and those that are in the team and suck must be taken out.
now this means we havr 2 type of TM fans:
(a) the type that thinks we have to play our best and always look for ways to improve become the best we can be fix our problems...
(b) the type that thinks since we have Branko we should sit on our fat as* and do nothing cause this is all we can be and hope for the best.
If you want to be (b) type of fan that is ok but don't think that others will look at you and think they want to be like you and give the type of support thhat you think you are giveing to TM.
no most people want this team to be at it's best I don't see us and t&t as the same they won over bahrain 1-0 as well to go to the world cup.
go and look at their ranking then look at our ranking.
we have a team with players in good europian club teams we have other players coming from the best ot asian teams such as pas.
with players like that we should not be looking at them as ab-goosht and being happey we should be crying why they are ab-goosht when they should be kabaabe kubede.
I don't think they are a soltane dish yet and they have a lot to go but they should be a kabaabe kubede by now.

Hamsafar

11-27-2005, 05:43 AM

maij

11-27-2005, 06:42 AM

I don't suppose the argument for or against Branko will end very time soon, but one thing that amazes me and leads me to think that people are just do NOT realize very simple facts.

The list of top or world class coaches that consider coaching Iran is probably A BIG FAT ZERO !!!!!!!!

Not that I would not like the likes of Ericsson or Carlos Albrto or Wenger or.... even the ones out of work to be employed....

They simply WILL NOT....

Do you want to know why ....I am sure you all know the facts.

Hamsafar

11-27-2005, 06:45 AM

Maij jan aziz:

Are you sure that a top coach will not accept coaching Iran when we have qualified for the WC. I am not sure..!!!

Amirza

11-27-2005, 12:08 PM

maji Jaan -
I am not saying we must necessarily fire Branco - in this short time.
We do need to change our approach however. Let me mention some of the obvious approaches we must change.

1- Daei must start !! why is that ? because he wants to ? it seems like the whole Iran knows Daei does not belong to TM anymore - yet they have accepted it !!!

2- As of today we all know Branco is a Tarsoo coach - he shall go into everygame in hope of a 1-0 win - that vision must change.

3- As I understand - TM is planning 2 friendlies - that is ridiculous !! but even 2 games is too many if we do not use them to identify and test new alternatives. As far as I am concerned we have wasted the LG cup testing nothing new.

Having said all that - I believe we still have time to hire a better coach with balls.

maij

11-28-2005, 02:53 PM

Maij jan aziz:

Are you sure that a top coach will not accept coaching Iran when we have qualified for the WC. I am not sure..!!!

If you force me to swear to GOD , then I certainly will not commit myslef:) :nono:

maij

11-28-2005, 03:12 PM

Amirza Jan ...No disrespect , But I simply will not be drawn into tactical arguments about Branko's errors or mistakes or whether it is right for player X to be there instead of Player Y. The topic here is : IS there any possible candidate who will want to coach Iran or to replace Branko taken into consideration all aspects?

Let me put a few pointers to initiate the argument (and Soheil Jan , excuse me if I drift a bit from your original topic.)

1- Iran is NOT a politically stable living/working place for Europeans. I don't need to go into minute details but anyone who follows Iranian political news, will know that IRI is not exactly considered in high regards by the Western governments and their allies mainly due to Nuclear power ambitions and human rights violation. PLEASE NOTE…this is not my personnel point of view and I do not necessarily agree with it>.

2- Living in Iran is a challenge for any person let alone a Westerner. Different social behavior , different mentality , lifestyles , social restrictions, religious radicalism and a few other factors form deterrents for Europeans.

3- The saga of Zobel is not to be taken lightly. He and people like him do not forget the ill-treatments and surely any German coach will ask for his advice before accepting an Iranian offer to coach Team Melli.
4- Top class coaches ask for horrendous amount of money. Some of the figures are beyond one’s imagination. IFF simply will not entertain such demands otherwise there will be another revolution in Iran....

OK...I will stop there before going any further...please tell me your point of views in this respect ( Employment of Top level /World Class coach) before I carry on further.

Amirza

11-28-2005, 06:41 PM

maij jaan -
everything you said is true -
but it sounds like you have given up - justifying your satisfaction with mediocracy and underachievements.

maij

11-29-2005, 10:43 AM

maij jaan -
everything you said is true -
but it sounds like you have given up - justifying your satisfaction with mediocracy and underachievements.

Nah Khair , Azizam.....I certainly have not given up.

Sorry , I forgot to ask : Given up on what ????

If you mean given up on arguments about tactics and players , I will maintain my stand that I , like all of the other fans , have no business questioning a professional coach on why he is selecting this player or playing this tactics or that.......

What you call mediocracy and underachievements is nothing more than a figment of your imagination and personally I think it is as far as possible from facts.

There are a lot of people that make their own assumptions or personnel desires (dreams) and expect it to be a fact of life and demand that it is either their way or it is NO WAY !!!!

Some even think that Iran should at least be in the semi-final of the WC !!!
OK...That is fine...there is no harm in dreaming, I do that all the time ( ....... But in my case I dream of the a World Cup Final match between TM and Brazil...where Brazil leads 2-0 upto minute 80 , when suddenly Ali Karimi , Borhani and Nekounam score 3 consecutive goal and......)

BUT ask any of them , how you do you base your assumption of TM standards , you get answers varying from the mediocre to the absloutely comical!!

NO sir....football is a wee bit more complicated than thinking that a change in coaching will bring you miracles.....or thinking the selection of this particular player will be the solution of all our problems!!!

The best of teams sometimes get humilated or have a series of bad runs. England lost to Denmark by 4 goals and then to Northern Ireland 1-0 but then bounced backed to clinch qualification to the WC and beat mighty Argentina 3-2 in a thriller........

I STILL think that Branko Ivankovic is the best option for Team Melli for the World Cup. He is not perfect , he is error-prone like any one of us, but in my prespective he is STILL the best.

.....And if Team Melli does not acheive much..... I would not even loose one bit of my passion for this team.....

OH WELL........... I suppose different people have different reasons for supporting different teams......

*************************************************

I like to have fun like them>>>>>>>> :banana::banana:

Amirza

11-29-2005, 02:11 PM

ARYA

11-29-2005, 05:42 PM

I just have a simple question for you maij jan, if our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko??

If you mean given up on arguments about tactics and players , I will maintain my stand that I , like all of the other fans , have no business questioning a professional coach on why he is selecting this player or playing this tactics or that......

Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?? Or do you have your limits too??

I think you'll agree that we all have our limits, therefore, I don't agree with your above statement, and I don't believe you mean to say that you have no right to question such things? Because we all have the god given right to question just about everything.

That said, I agree with you about the current state of affairs of our nation and the unlikelihood of a capable and respected coach volunteering for the job. I also agree that the IFF will not afford a high priced coach.

I like many others am not asking for Branko's replacement but am entitled to form an opinion based on my own observations, which by the way is not far from yours. You also agree that we have weaknesses within out line-up and/or formation, even Branko himself admits to the fact that he has observed weaknesses within our line-up, but what's become puzzling to me and many others is, why, if we have indeed observed these weaknesses for the past year, have we done nothing to improve in the same areas, and why we insist in allowing the same players in the same formation? Is it in hopes that they will eventually one day soon make a miraculous turnaround and suddenly overnight become the best player in the post?

I'd have to agree with some here that say Branko has not moved away from his original team members and players for the past well 3 to 4 years. This cannot be healthy for our team, nor is it healthy for IPL.

Doctor DOOM

11-30-2005, 10:08 AM

daaaamn !
for once ( :D ) I'm lost for words.
both amireza jan and arya jan covered pretty much what I wanted to say !

I especially like the quote : "training on the job" by amireza.
very apt.

also the matter of one's "limits" brought up by arya.
another great point.

finally , I'd like to make something clear here.
maji jan, everyone appreciates your support for the team.
we all do so too.
I think the fact that inspite of some pretty disappointing games, we still get a lot of fans to come and talk about the team shows EVERYONE is as passionate and fanatical about Iran and TM as it could be.
in that, there shd be no doubt.

but some of us are unhappy with HOW this team is run.
and if we voice our concerns, it shd NEVER ... EVER be construed as undermining TM and Iran.
NEVER.

not that I think you dop so, but I have seen some friends twist things in that way that if anyone says above branko's eyes are eye-borws, it means they are degrading TM !!!
( no wonder many teenagers swicth their votes in all these polls !! )

we are all passionate about TM, but have our own ways of showing it.

and just as arya pointed out , we all have our limits.
while some of us are not as blessed as others with unlimited patience, some ARE, and they continue to seek anything positive in the matter ( not to mention it is becoming harder and harder by the day to find positive points nowadays !! :( ).

I ran out of patience a year back .
some ran out 6 months back.
some have given up now.
.... and rest assured, if things continue this way, more will do so,in the very near future.

it is just branko's ... ahem .... "luck" that they refused to accept any proposals for friendlies in Dec.
( hmm... I wonder why ? ;) )
another showing like the last few, and the scrambled eggs we saw dished out on the pitch by our stars, and I think this present 52-54% support for branko's methods is going to shrink even more to 30's .

I'm just puzzled why we dont accept to have a game which can go a long way to help the team iron out some areas of trouble !
is there any ulterior motive to that ? ;)

VivaItalia

11-30-2005, 12:28 PM

I just have a simple question for you maij jan, if our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko??

Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?? Or do you have your limits too??

.

Very funny question!
So you base your arguement and logic on "IF"s? Your question is out of place here since our team has reached the WC.

Let me ask you this question: If your father would beat and molest you when you were a child, would you still love him? Think about it! now hate your father and through him out or possibly kill him!!!

This is how your question sounds!
anyways...forget it.

ARYA

11-30-2005, 04:01 PM

Very funny question!
So you base your arguement and logic on "IF"s? Your question is out of place here since our team has reached the WC.

Let me ask you this question: If your father would beat and molest you when you were a child, would you still love him? Think about it! now hate your father and through him out or possibly kill him!!!

This is how your question sounds!
anyways...forget it.

Viva, you and I have held mature conversations not long ago. I must say that I'm shocked by your pubescent reply. Were you not able to find a better way to bring your point across? Making such a vulgar and disrespectful remark makes you sound as though you were brought up on shabdol azim.

So you understand my meaning, since apparently you are unable to read between the lines, what I was trying to arrive at by asking maij such a question is that I highly doubt he would feel that he should not question a professional coach had TM not qualified for the WC. In his own words maij states that, as a fan he doesn't feel it is his place to question a professional coach, when we all know that is not how he truly feels, and as a fan he himself would have been the first to ask for Branko's resignation had Iran not qualified, and if that is not questioning a professional coach, than I don't know what is.

Hence "we all have our limits"

Perhaps, you didn't bother to read my whole post!!

faraz

11-30-2005, 04:11 PM

Actually, Arya poses a great question - is there a limit where this non-stop support will fail to exist? If we argue that those who are displeased by Branko have invalid reasoning due to a lack of a coaching degree then can we, by the same token, argue that those who are pleased with Branko do not know what they're talking about because they too do not have a coaching degree? Based on the recent RESULTS and general PLAY from TM (let's get factual now), is it safe to say that Branko has hit some turbulence, out of which he does not seem able to progress?

Merely some questions from a fan to other fans, who feels like answering?

VivaItalia

11-30-2005, 05:31 PM

Viva, you and I held mature conversations not long ago. I must say that I'm shocked by your example. Were you not able to find a better example to bring your point across? Making such a vulgar and disrespectful remark makes you sound as though you were brought up on shabdol azim.

So you understand my meaning, since you are apparently unable to read between the lines, what I was trying to arrive at by asking maij such a question was, that I highly doubt he would feel that he should not question a professional coach if TM hadn't qualified for the WC. In his own words, maij states that as a fan he doesn't feel it is his place to question a professional coach, when we all know that is not how he truly feels and as a fan, he himself would have been the first one to ask for his resignation, had Iran not qualified, and if that is not questioning a professional coach, than I don't know what is.

Hence "we all have our limits"

Perhaps, you didn't bother to read my whole post!!

Arya, (thanks for not saying "jan", some people try hard to pretend to be a nice person by saying "Felany Jan"! ;) )
How did you know I am from Shabdol Azim?! damn! very good guess :)

Now lets go back to our old good days when we had civilized conversation.
your post had two parts; the first part is based on "IF"s which is highly invalid arguement since your hypothesis has not been fullfilled (TM not going to WC) therefore the question has only one answer :I'll tell you when TM gets eliminated next time! or if TM fails in the WC.

the second part, on the other hand, contains a valid point/question: can we question the coach? and my answer is YES. and should we question the coach? YES.
Hope it clears things.

you had a question about why Branko uses the same group of players over and over. to answer you from my own perspective, Italia, Brazil and France have been doing the same thing since the last domestic cup. there are only a few changes to their main squad since then due to injuries, old ages and ... some coaches (including Branko, I think) believe that National Team should act like a club. You select the best players and train them to coordinate. but sometimes you need to replace a few members of the club which we are in this proccess too. on the other hand some coaches don't think this way and invite players quick and strike off quick. so there are different types of mentality and we can't determine which one is better.

ARYA

11-30-2005, 06:23 PM

Arya, (thanks for not saying "jan", some people try hard to pretend to be a nice person by saying "Felany Jan"! ;) )
How did you know I am from Shabdol Azim?! damn! very good guess :)

Viva, in the Persian culture saying jan is a sign of respect, it's not a matter of being nice. :nono:

Now lets go back to our old good days when we had civilized conversation.

How was I uncivilized within my initial post, just curious? :confused:

your post had two parts; the first part is based on "IF"s which is highly invalid arguement since your hypothesis has not been fullfilled (TM not going to WC) therefore the question has only one answer :I'll tell you when TM gets eliminated next time! or if TM fails in the WC.

Wrong Viva, my post had but one question, therefore consists of one part. You only chose to conveniently see it in two parts. By the way you have answered my 1 question correctly within your following statement. ;) And that is, we all do have out limits. Yours has simply not been reached as yet.

the second part, on the other hand, contains a valid point/question: can we question the coach? and my answer is YES. and should we question the coach? YES.
Hope it clears things.

you had a question about why Branko uses the same group of players over and over. to answer you from my own perspective, Italia, Brazil and France have been doing the same thing since the last domestic cup. there are only a few changes to their main squad since then due to injuries, old ages and ... some coaches (including Branko, I think) believe that National Team should act like a club. You select the best players and train them to coordinate. but sometimes you need to replace a few members of the club which we are in this proccess too. on the other hand some coaches don't think this way and invite players quick and strike off quick. so there are different types of mentality and we can't determine which one is better.

Do you know something we don't? Who are these players that we have or are in the process of replacing?? I haven't seen anybody be replaced. On the contrary, it seems to me that Branko has already picked his main squad and is now only looking for a couple of subs for here and there. Why else than would he start the main squad in every single game and play the new invitees in the last 15 minutes of each game, even in a friendly match?

And as for Italy, Brazil, France playing with the same squad, even if that were true, what does that have to do with TM. Perhaps they have found all the missing links for their WC squad, but the question is, have we?? I’ll even give you the answer, “NO WE HAVE NOT”

Amirza

11-30-2005, 09:15 PM

VivaItalia

12-01-2005, 12:03 PM

VivaItalia Jaan :D ;) with all due respect -
Maybe Maij is right - maybe comenting about our TM is not for every fan.
Fans like you who don't have enough to digest the points beeing made here - would obviously not have enough to raise any critic of value either.
We have written volumes about not having plans on the field - yet you are still looking for 3 new players ?!! Granted - finding a couple more Kia and Karimis will make us much better - but without pre-practiced offensive plays - we will not get much farther than where we are.

Amirza khan,

I held my respect for you for a long time although I disagree with you in many ocasions. I see that you are desparatly/unfairly/immaturely using words to belittle me. let's be it old man, if it makes you feel better.

After all, both of us are fans. only experts can say who is right. Until then...

VivaItalia

12-01-2005, 12:34 PM

Viva, in the Persian culture saying jan is a sign of respect, it's not a matter of being nice. :nono:

How was I uncivilized within my initial post, just curious? :confused:

Wrong Viva, my post had but one question, therefore consists of one part. You only chose to conveniently see it in two parts. By the way you have answered my 1 question correctly within your following statement. ;) And that is, we all do have out limits. Yours has simply not been reached as yet.

Do you know something we don't? Who are these players that we have or are in the process of replacing?? I haven't seen anybody be replaced. On the contrary, it seems to me that Branko has already picked his main squad and is now only looking for a couple of subs for here and there. Why else than would he start the main squad in every single game and play the new invitees in the last 15 minutes of each game, even in a friendly match?

And as for Italy, Brazil, France playing with the same squad, even if that were true, what does that have to do with TM. Perhaps they have found all the missing links for their WC squad, but the question is, have we?? I’ll even give you the answer, “NO WE HAVE NOT”

Arya'e aziz,

- Please don't teach me the Persian Culture. :) my brain is all full of that. But I think I am experienced enough to distinguish who means it and who does not. (that was my point, in case you missed it)
- Arya jan, did I ever say that you were uncivilized? I love this saying: Cheshma ra baayad shost, joore digar baayad did.
- You raised 2 different questions which could have 2 different answers:

1-if our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko?? (Feelings about Branko's (knowledge?))
2-Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?? (Questioning Branko)

I think it's pretty clear. isn't it? I can feel very strongly about Branko but believe that I can question him. right? so, I personaly could give you two different answers, therefore, there are two different questions.

- My post was supposed to be a friendly post, but you took it as a very hostile message! I have no idea why? Maybe next time I should attach my voice to the post too. and possibly a nice picture of mine smilling.

- Let's forget about Italy, Germany and ..., Can you tell me what positions you think we need to find a solution for? Ask every 10 year old kid in Iran, every one can line up TM and I bet 90% of people would line-up the same team, thanks to Branko. you wanna try it?
So, we already know what the problems are and they won't go away until we go to the ONE-MONTH camp. Branko just need to find 22 good players to take there and that's it. the team will be cooked in the one-month camp. the way Ivic cooked it. and this is the period that every national team's coach is waiting for it.

Va-ssalam.

maij

12-01-2005, 01:50 PM

Again - all you say is true - especialy the fact that no one wants to have their FUN disturbed - even if it's a short lived - seldom come around - type of fun - such as having our TM play in the WC. But I say again - it seems like you have given up on our football - you seem to be contempt with being in the last bracket - just happy to be there. That is fine and dandy - just don't call us Branko Bashers - or try to tell us there is nothing wrong - or Branco is the best coach.......

Amirza Jan...I think there is a case of mistaken identity here or a slight misunderstanding. I don't recall name calling , but even if I did call someone who bashes Branko a Branko-Basher then what is wrong with that linguistically or ethically?

When I said Branko is the best , you very well know that I meant it considering all aspects and circumastances , NOT that Branco is the best coach in the World !!!!!!

Just like you I love the fact that Iran is in the WC and look forward to them playing there - but let me remind you the 98 WC was much better than the 78 campaign - just because of that one 2-1 win !! And let me also remind you - the fun you may have experienced with our mediocracy - pales in a big way to the fun S.Korean and the Turkish fans experienced in 2002. That is the fun we are after - and we shall get there - by allowing ourselves to discuss Football, Football Organization, Tactics, techniques,........ after all - it's not nuclear physics !! :D ;) and knowing the unfortunate fact that these days in Iran, we have the era of the incompetant pretenders being in charge !! just about all decesion makers "Train on the Job" - so why not creating a training atmosphere for IFF as well as are pedestrian sports jounalists ??

That there is ineffeciency in football organization ...it goes without saying. That there is faults and shortcoming , that is undenaible fact....But the subject is NOT about this.

It is commendable that you have set your target and your satisfaction level to the standard of the Turkish or Korean teamn of 2002. BUt, that is YOUR personal standard of satisfaction...DO NOT mix it up with the reklaity that IRAN and Team Melli is has not reached that milestone on merit yet.

So, I definately want and perhaps expect the team to make it to the next round ( wait until 9th Dec.) but going beyond that is Roy of the Rover stuff for me.

maij

12-01-2005, 02:14 PM

I just have a simple question for you maij jan, if our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko?? .

I don't really think that is a simple question to answer.Ineed two and half pages to answer this , and I doubt that anyone will read it.:D

Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?? Or do you have your limits too?? .

I certainly have my limits. As a professional in my job ( which is nothing to do with footbvall) I respect other professional. Knowing a bit about politics reading the news , or watching documentarties on TV , does NOT entitle me to be a carrier diplomat telling Koofi Anan his job.

I think you'll agree that we all have our limits, therefore, I don't agree with your above statement, and I don't believe you mean to say that you have no right to question such things? Because we all have the god given right to question just about everything..

You lost me there. I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. However , since you mentioned it , a person can even question God , religion and anything that exists....my point is that , there are limits and boundries to that.

I can go and steal money from my company and I have ways to make it extremely difficult to get caught. But I elect not to do it for many reasons.

It is not question of ability to question it is a question wheteher you are entitled to do it ethically or otherwise.

That said, I agree with you about the current state of affairs of our nation and the unlikelihood of a capable and respected coach volunteering for the job. I also agree that the IFF will not afford a high priced coach.

I like many others am not asking for Branko's replacement but am entitled to form an opinion based on my own observations, which by the way is not far from yours. You also agree that we have weaknesses within out line-up and/or formation, even Branko himself admits to the fact that he has observed weaknesses within our line-up, but what's become puzzling to me and many others is, why, if we have indeed observed these weaknesses for the past year, have we done nothing to improve in the same areas, and why we insist in allowing the same players in the same formation? Is it in hopes that they will eventually one day soon make a miraculous turnaround and suddenly overnight become the best player in the post?

I'd have to agree with some here that say Branko has not moved away from his original team members and players for the past well 3 to 4 years. This cannot be healthy for our team, nor is it healthy for IPL.

I have NEVER said Branco is faultless. Nobody is. I have never siad people should not criticize him or other people involved with Team Melli. There is a limit on that though which is not absloutely clear even to me!
Simply . I beleive that Branco is clever enough to reliaze his team's weaknesses.
People question "Why is he doing NOTHING about it" which is just pure speculation and downright false..... Because he IS doing something about it ,but not necessarily what you and me think.

Look at Nosrati's saga. In my opinion, this player has shown enoughg weaknesses in National and club level matches , for him to be benched.

Branko thinks otherwise.

Does that mean because of my personal opinion , I should hate Branco or label him as incompetent ??? Sorry , but who am I to do that?? there are 70 million other people like me , what about their point of views??? should he go round collecting votes or thoughts ???

Sorry, it just does not work like that.......

maij

12-01-2005, 02:37 PM

Peyman jan...thanks for your kind words, but let me tell you something:
Do you think I will support Branco or any other name/coach/manager for that matter detrimental to Team Melli's reputation?? Do you think that I will ever think that Ali Daei is more important than Team Melli.??

Hell NO , in both cases.

In my book , Team Melli is the priority ,and next comes Team Melli.
I don't think that people who do not support Branco are traitors or what have you. My message is perhaps not as simple as I thought it is , but I will mention it anyhow.
There is a limit in critiques, ethically and technically. There is a wild variety of so-called football experts. A 15 year old boy thinks he is an expert and has the full right to bash anyone living to the eldest member of this forum....everyone thinks he is an expert......!!!!!

Although football is not nuclear science is not as simple as drinking a glass of water either.

Hell.....we are losing focus not to mention sanity in some of the discussions. We are arranging the team , calling for this player to play in that position , arranging friendly with certain countries only , picking the venues and some of them had the audacity to arrange and control the player's careers and lives by petitioning the players not to play in certain countries !!!!!!!!!!

What's next !!!!!! I suppose telling the players that eating banana's instead of oranges’ everyday is better for them!!!!! ........

....and we ALL ARE PASSIONATE TEAM MELLI FANS ......

Amirza

12-01-2005, 03:14 PM

I just want to clarify one very important issue.
First of all - as one who has been close to several IFF managers and football writers - let me assure you - some of the discussions going on here and on some other forums are far far more advanced than any football related discussions inside IFF or on the daily football papers in Iran. In fact I wish/hope IFF top officials could read english and benefit from some of the ideas, as well as the latest news and advancements in Football.

The point some of us are raising is not providing simple criticism - we are pushing hard to change the whole approach on how to hire the next coach !!
Whatever IFF asks for when they interview coaching candidates - must include questions about abilities of the candidates in devising and coaching offensive plays.

Doctor DOOM

12-01-2005, 03:34 PM

cheers majid jan

lol

... actually from what I have heard, eating bananas IS more beneficial to the players than oranges ( which are by themselves great sources of Vit C , btw )

:D

lets hope TM is pulled out of this slump and we all can get together and cheer their great performances.
and lets hope whoever it is that wields the magic wand, will correct all our defects before the games .

maij

12-01-2005, 03:49 PM

I just want to clarify one very important issue.
First of all - as one who has been close to several IFF managers and football writers - let me assure you - some of the discussions going on here and on some other forums are far far more advanced than any football related discussions inside IFF or on the daily football papers in Iran. In fact I wish/hope IFF top officials could read english and benefit from some of the ideas, as well as the latest news and advancements in Football. .

Funny you mentioned that....

I have the same feeling after witnessing live how the Iraninan press , think , act , behave and write. This was during last year's Asian Cup in China.

I can't comment on IFF managers though, I can not claim that I have enought connection with them to form an opinion.

maij

12-01-2005, 03:50 PM

cheers majid jan

lol

... actually from what I have heard, eating bananas IS more beneficial to the players than oranges ( which are by themselves great sources of Vit C , btw )

:D

.

Are you serious :D :D Is that a fact ??? I only said that because I was eating a banana at the time......:) :)

ARYA

12-01-2005, 05:19 PM

- Please don't teach me the Persian Culture. :) my brain is all full of that. But I think I am experienced enough to distinguish who means it and who does not. (that was my point, in case you missed it)

I didn't miss your point but rather wanted to ensure that you understand that the word "jan" is used as a sign of respect, it is not just for being nice. But like you say, not everyone means it.

- Arya jan, did I ever say that you were uncivilized? I love this saying: Cheshma ra baayad shost, joore digar baayad did.

Viva khan, within the following reply, you did insinuate that we are both being uncivilized, when the only one who was being not civil was you by your rash example in trying to put your point across.

Now lets go back to our old good days when we had civilized conversation.

- You raised 2 different questions which could have 2 different answers:
1-if our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko?? (Feelings about Branko's (knowledge?))
2-Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?? (Questioning Branko)
I think it's pretty clear. isn't it? I can feel very strongly about Branko but believe that I can question him. right? so, I personaly could give you two different answers, therefore, there are two different questions.

You are wrong again, it is all a single question in trying to arrive at one single answer. You prefer to see it in two parts, simply because you have been proven wrong. Think about it baba, you are trying to tell me what my question is??? Does that make any sense to you?? If you misunderstood the question, just say I misunderstood, but don't be trying to tell me what I'm trying to ask. That's just absurd.

"if our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko, Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?" This is all one question, now do you get it??

- My post was supposed to be a friendly post, but you took it as a very hostile message! I have no idea why? Maybe next time I should attach my voice to the post too.

I don't know about you, but in my book a reply such as the following is quite hostile.

Very funny question!
So you base your argument and logic on "IF"s? Your question is out of place here since our team has reached the WC.

Let me ask you this question: If your father would beat and molest you when you were a child, would you still love him? Think about it! now hate your father and through him out or possibly kill him!!!
This is how your question sounds!
anyways...forget it.

- Let's forget about Italy, Germany and ..., 1. Can you tell me what positions you think we need to find a solution for them? 2. Ask every 10 year old kids in Iran, every one can line up TM and I bet 90% of people would line-up the same team, thanks to Branko. you wanna try it? 3. So, we already know what the problems are and they won't go away until we go to the ONE-MONTH camp. Branko just need to find 22 good players to take there and that's it. the team will be cooked in the one-month camp. the way Ivic cooked it. and this is the period that every national team's coach is waiting for it.
Va-ssalam.

1. You know well and sure about our left back and left wing as well as our unreliable goalie problems, not to mention our team of reserves. So I don't understand the point of this question.

2. Yah lets try it. What kind of a question is that? I'd rather not ask any 10 year olds, but would rather listen to all of the professional coaches and footballers in Iran. Additionally, the point I'm trying to make, is that we are all quite capable of forming our own opinion based on what we see with our own two eyes. And it is all a matter of when one reaches ones limits, trust me Viva, there will come a day when you yourself will say "Enough is Enough". Unfortunately for you that day will probably be when this same exact TM and it's coach have experienced a humiliating WC.

3. First you’d like to do a survey and suggest that 90% of people will line-up the same team, and than you state that we already know what the problems are and will need to resolve them at the camp. So do we have problems within our team or don’t we have problems? You have to pick a side first before you begin an argument.

Branko is going to take the current squad to the WC, he is betting that his main squad will bail him out at the true test. He has proven over and over again that he is not concerned about our trouble areas nor is he concerned about the reserves, otherwise he will have tried the reserves in some friendlies, and would have tried other individuals in our areas of concern for more than 15 minutes in each friendly game?

Do you seriously think that at this point he is still looking for new starters, na azizam, he has already selected his main squad, and as I mentioned before he is now only looking for a couple of reserve players if any, ones who will more than likely see little to no minutes on the pitch.

Our left back, left wing, and goalie problems have gone unattended for so long, what makes you think that Branko will now all of the sudden insert a couple of new players in these areas to start? Why? Because he has proven to be such a flexible coach? Branko has not changed from his original squad in the slightest bit since he's been in charge, so he will not be making any changes at this late stage in the game. The squad you are looking at now with one or two exceptions are the same folks who have been part of the team ever since he took the helm, and will also be the ones representing us at the WC.

Since you agree that we do have areas of concern, and these areas of concern have existed within TM for quite a while, than I don’t understand how you or anyone else for that matter can remain so calm withstanding our current state of affairs, and continue to make excuses for a coach who has shown no signs of flexibility, under whom our TM has shown no signs of improvement in these areas of weakness. It is a case of the blind leading the blind perhaps.

I do like Branko, and respect him for what he has accomplished so far, but Iran and TM has entered a new era. Our professional league has improved considerably within the past few years and has produced quite a few capable footballers, unfortunately however Branko has simply chosen to ignore these new prospects and is choosing instead to stick with his main squad the same ones he put together 4 years ago.

I'd imagine it's the dream of every national team coach to be able to create a club like atmosphere within their team, but even clubs release team members each year for ones who have proven more promising. We are not saying that Team Melli is in need of 22 new players, but why continue to play those individuals whom even by IPL standards are not the best within their respective positions just because they were members of your original squad.

VivaItalia

12-01-2005, 08:00 PM

Arya jan,

The first part of our discussion is becoming very childish (you said, I said,...) I am getting kinda old for that. you are absolutely right about that. so lets forget it. I apologize.

and about the second part, lets agree to disagree. I support Branko all the way and I believe that 90% of what he is doing is right. you don't, it's respected. I just hope that Branko stays until the end of the WC and proves everyone wrong. but apart from that, I hope our TM shines (this is the most important objective).

Thank you very much.

ARYA

12-01-2005, 08:24 PM

maij jan,

Firstly I'd like to thank you for your well thought out reply.

I'd just like to clarify a few things with-respect to my personal points of view.

If our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko?? Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?? Or do you have your limits too?

The above question was intended to determine, to what extents you are willing to go in following and stand up for Branko. Your following answer proves you are a reasonable individual.

I certainly have my limits. As a professional in my job ( which is nothing to do with footbvall) I respect other professional. Knowing a bit about politics reading the news , or watching documentarties on TV , does NOT entitle me to be a carrier diplomat telling Koofi Anan his job.

I don't believe that I have disrespected anyone, also my posts are not titled "Dear Branko", therefore they are not meant to tell him how to do his job. Simply put, I am voicing my concerns as you do your confidence.

1. You lost me there. I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. However, since you mentioned it, a person can even question God , religion and anything that exists....my point is that ,2. there are limits and boundries to that.

3. I can go and steal money from my company and I have ways to make it extremely difficult to get caught. But I elect not to do it for many reasons.

4. It is not question of ability to question it is a question wheteher you are entitled to do it ethically or otherwise.

1. Within your initial post you had made mention of the fact that as mere fans you do not feel it appropriate to question a professional coach. And the point I was trying to make was that everyone has limits, at which point we can and will begin questioning anything and everything.

2. I disagree with this point of view, there should be no limits and boundries placed on ones ability to question things. How can you place limit on such a thing. It's like saying we should not have the right of self-expression. No one is above the law. The only one we are not to question is Khoda and his judgment.

3. I don't understand what point you are trying to make by this statement.

4. Again I disagree, everyone is entitled to question anything, also, who decides what one is entitled to question ethically or otherwise. Only God makes such decisions.

I have NEVER said Branco is faultless. Nobody is. I have never siad people should not criticize him or other people involved with Team Melli. 1. There is a limit on that though which is not absloutely clear even to me!Simply . 2. I beleive that Branco is clever enough to reliaze his team's weaknesses. 3. People question "Why is he doing NOTHING about it" which is just pure speculation and downright false..... Because he IS doing something about it ,but not necessarily what you and me think.

4. Look at Nosrati's saga. In my opinion, this player has shown enoughg weaknesses in National and club level matches , for him to be benched.

Branko thinks otherwise.

Does that mean because of my personal opinion , I should hate Branco or label him as incompetent ??? 5. Sorry , but who am I to do that?? there are 70 million other people like me , what about their point of views??? should he go round collecting votes or thoughts ???

Sorry, it just does not work like that.......

1. Wrong again, there should be no limits placed on ones right for self-expression.

2. This is your belief and your are certainly entitled to it.

3. Perhaps it's you who is wrong and speculating that he is indeed doing something about the current state of affairs, unless you know something I don't know.

4. We both agree on that. The only difference is that I say it my way and you yours. It is entirely up to you whether you wish to be critical and you have chosen not to do so, it does not mean that I love TM any less than you if I criticize the current state of affairs of our national team.

5. You and every other individual on this planet is entitled to question anything that you feel strongly about. Branko is just another man and he can form his own opinion and is entitled to his own point of view, however, does that mean that he is right 100% of the time? He could be wrong in the same way that you or I could be wrong; he can make mistakes as all of us humans do. You are correct in saying that he is there at the camp and sees what goes on, my concern is why have we seen no improvement in our areas of weakness if he has indeed been working on it for the past 4 years? Could it possibly be that perhaps he may not be right about one or two things?

maij

12-02-2005, 07:53 AM

Sorry Arya , I really am not interested in continueing such pattern of arguments...I hope you don't get offended.

I could be wrong, of course....BUT ..I have not seen evidence to that effect yet.

What I care for at the end of the day , is the success of Team Melli.

But even if TM looses all the 3 mathes in Germany , I will be as excited as ever for the next match to cheer them up....even a friendly against Maldive (... after a brief mourning period!...that is)

.... AND I want TM to be coached by one man only ( his name is Ivancovic at the moment) but NOT by PFDC members...Is that too much to ask ???

You might think that is an extremist point of view , but then again , everyone is entitled to his viewpoint.

Regards.

ARYA

12-02-2005, 01:09 PM

Sorry Arya , I really am not interested in continueing such pattern of arguments...I hope you don't get offended.

I'm not offended what so ever.

I could be wrong, of course....BUT ..I have not seen evidence to that effect yet.

I also could be wrong of course, but, I also have seen no evidence of that so far.

What I care for at the end of the day , is the success of Team Melli.

Ditto

But even if TM looses all the 3 mathes in Germany , I will be as excited as ever for the next match to cheer them up....even a friendly against Maldive (... after a brief mourning period!...that is)

As long as our boys give a good showing of themselves at the WC, even if they loose all three games I will not mourn. I will continue to cheer on my national team as I have been for the past 40 years with all of our peaks and valleys.

.... AND I want TM to be coached by one man only ( his name is Ivancovic at the moment) but NOT by PFDC members...Is that too much to ask ???

I think you'll agree, no one is sitting at the TM camp looking at the PFDC forum on their laptop and giving instructions to the players based on any of our comments. I don't think you mean to ask us not to speak our mind, this is a forum after all and it is designed for the very thing. And by the way, I also want our TM to be coached by only one man, and if Branko shows that he can do it than more power to him.

You might think that is an extremist point of view , but then again , everyone is entitled to his viewpoint.

Regards.

Neither one of us should view our own personal view as an extremist one, that's just the nature of things.

Amirza

12-02-2005, 04:24 PM

.... AND I want TM to be coached by one man only ( his name is Ivancovic at the moment) but NOT by PFDC members...Is that too much to ask ???

So - by the same logic - I am not allowed to even dare to question President Ahmadinejad - because Iran has one President and it's not me ?!!

I am sorry - but I just don't buy your argument - I tend to believe what another member said earlier - you guys don'r want to lose your stadium or TM camp passes or certain rights such as interview rights, etc. And we understand - it's an unfortunate reality that IFF disfavours those who are harsh with them !! and you guys just don't want to be put in that position. But what we don't understand is for some obviously intelligent members and moderators to be Kaseh Dagh tar az Ash.

maij

12-04-2005, 01:21 PM

maij

12-04-2005, 01:53 PM

I tend to believe what another member said earlier - you guys don'r want to lose your stadium or TM camp passes or certain rights such as interview rights, etc. And we understand -.

Now..this the kind of extremely cheap shot that immensely pisses me off
What you are saying is nothing short of slanderous, insulting pack of lies and offensive to me.

How can you accuse people you don’t even know of such act ??? or is it due to one of those divine powers that you posses that you have discovered that people like me don’t want to jeopardize their freebee entrance into Azadi.!!!!!!!!

I have spent my OWN hard earned money to fly across the globe to watch football matches in the past 30 years, I have paid for a couple of tickets for the European Cup final more than people pay for a monthly rent of a house , and your Excellency is accusing me that I am after IFF to give me a free ticket worth less that a couple of dollars !!!!!!!

That is crude and vulgar .

Doctor DOOM

12-04-2005, 02:04 PM

cant beleive I missed majid jan's words on PFDC members trying to coach TM.
sorry. I guess I didnt notice that at all !

majhid jan,
you must agree nobody here wants to coach TM.

and if at all we bring up issues on the team is perhaps to find reasons for their existence, reasons for the contunued occurence, and to seek different ideas by different ppl to see how they look at these issues .

noone wants to take the helm, but you surely cannot expect ppl to just bow down and stay quiet at the face of repetition of mistakes and defects.

you yourself have expressed some annoyance over a few issues.
so you'd know why ppl talk about different matters.
I dont think anyone misunderstood your discussions on those matters as your ploy to take over the helm of TM bench.

yes, he is the coahc.
yes, he has a Phd ( in physical training or ... whatever ).
but as we say, in ke noon-e shab nemisheh baraye maa !
we are still seeing many deficiencies in the team unattended .... or , ok, attended, but failed to resolve.

so shd we keep quiet and be happy with one attempt ( I dont know how forceful or measely it may have been ) to correct a defect, and say "ok, he tried. now lets accept it and live with it" !!! ?????

without going over many LOOOOONNGGG-standing issues, some of us are puzzled and confounded as how on earth when he is supposed to have learnt so much from his boss, and has a Phd, and ....... , he has not come even an inch closer in solving those longstanding problems !

isnt it fair to question this?

plz dont say it is unfair, coz for me , branko's comfort and relaxation means the least, and TM's quality and performance is THE ONLY thing that matters.

so if by enquiring about these longstanding problems, branko's delicate sentiments are offended .... well, I could give a rat's arse!
All I care is solving TM's problems.

now, if he is not capable to cope with inquieries and rectify the defects, then khey-e peesh. khosh amadi.
bring on someone else.

so far he has proven INCAPABLE to rectify these matters ( I dont care if he has tried this much or that much . the FACT of the matter is that those issues still remain ).
so shd we bow down, accept our miserable "fate" and go into the games limping on ne leg, with a keeper situation, ... a defender situation... a striker situation.... ?

some of us dont want that fate.

maij

12-04-2005, 03:02 PM

VivaItalia

12-04-2005, 03:26 PM

Peyman Jan.....I can't beleive that you are going round and round and round again arguing the same points.

Agha....who said that Branko ( or anyone for that matter) is beyond criticiscm ????? Who said he is perfect ?? who said that any Tom Dick or Harry can coach a team take them to the World Cup Finals?

Majid jan, vel kon baba joon, khooneto kasif nakon.

oon shere ro shenidi ke migeh: Aankas ke nadanad va nadanad ke nadanad, dar jahle morakkab abado-ddahr bemanad!

Bezaar khosh baashan in jamaa'at.

VivaItalia

12-04-2005, 03:29 PM

So - by the same logic - I am not allowed to even dare to question President Ahmadinejad - because Iran has one President and it's not me ?!!

I am sorry - but I just don't buy your argument - I tend to believe what another member said earlier - you guys don'r want to lose your stadium or TM camp passes or certain rights such as interview rights, etc. And we understand - it's an unfortunate reality that IFF disfavours those who are harsh with them !! and you guys just don't want to be put in that position. But what we don't understand is for some obviously intelligent members and moderators to be Kaseh Dagh tar az Ash.

You may want to appologize to PFDC Management and Moderators for such a horrible accusation, otherwise I'll ask Kamran to review this himself.

Doctor DOOM

12-04-2005, 04:15 PM

majid jan, that was my reference to the statement of a "pfdc member trying to coach" the team.
as I said, I had missed it the first time I read the posts.

just said my bit on that subject.

-----------
dear viva,
as you shd have noticed, when things reach such immature levels with childish takes on polls that translate to members ( and I quote : ) "losing", ( when polls are there to show the tendency or trend among masses. and there are NO winnign or losing sides. only different points of view on a given issue. believe me, that is all ;) ) , then ppl just stay away from such immaturities.

and immaturites reach new heights, when some ppl "CHOOSE" to accept one word of majority, and yet deny or refute another word of majority !!!!
if majority's vote is to be taken , then ALL their votes in all issues shd be taken in the same manner.

especially when polls are about what ppl like to "watch" !!! as if entertainment is the prime objective here, NOT quality or effectiveness ! ;)
and who cares if experts and persons in the know, ... ALL of them have spoken and validated the rise in quality of a player AFTER joining a certain club.
( yet, we have to go by what ppl "enjoy watching" .... no matter if that clashes with all sense and indication of elevated quality
not to mention that he same ppl differ between these two :
1- "both"
and
2- "mixture of two"
I mean after this, how can anyone take anything seriously ? :o )

and a few other matters that I'm just too bored to go over.
so keeping all those in mind, I'd suggest you , yourself review your above "sher" and perhaps, take heed.
:)

zzgloo

12-05-2005, 09:35 AM

BRANKO WILL AND SHOULD STAY
The pressure and all the rumors surrounding Iranian Football and its issue with Branko is a Real Test for the destiny of football in Iran.
It is without a shadow of a doubt that TM will do much better than what they are doing today when they step in the pitch a day in 2006 in Germany. This is so natural and obvious. And it will definitely happen even if you have a person Like MayeliKohan as the head coach.
Football is played more with desire, compassion, motivation and professionality. More than half of the potential of a team comes from thses factors alone. Tactical inputs can get you through with a game, but it is not a necessity for being there and loosing "Good".
Therefore, we will always play "Good" in world cup. And again and again, irrelevant people will get the credit for it and we will have this circus time and time again in the future world cups to come. And hence, we regress, we loose credibility among the top Coaches in the world and hence the dirty intentions will be achieved. Less and less people who really have a say in football in will remain and hence their presense or absence will not matter for "Nuclear Iran".
It is a fact that any organisation or government is in enourmous threat (Mainly in 3rd world Countries) when they can not have control over things or individuals. Whether that is Karimi, Daei or anyone for that matter. Bringing success to that level, will bring with it a very big threat. Cause then, those individuals and things will have so much support from the commoner that stopping them means destroying yourself.
If let alone, Iranian football is going through a very systematic approach towards professionalism. With introduction of Branko and Co, although we have not shown the best that we can be, Irans football has changed quite a bit. Knowledge, systematic and scientific approach has been introduced. All of this with the least amount of infra-structure.
I am very bitter today. Bitter that many of us dont see the "Peecheshe Moo" instead of the "Moo". Yet again, we are sacrificing a systemic approach, a step toward professional mentality for rotted and historic ideas or for being a puppet of rulers. Its a pitty.
I am extremely confident that these rumors will not have its intended effect. If it happens, it will happen with major changes in Iranian football including the resignation of so many people who have tried so hard in the past few months to achieve something. Are they perfect? No, they arent. But as long as we are not, our culture is not, and our mentalities are like this, we even cant think about perfection. So what we got, is the best we could get.
I certainly will be one of the people who will kiss goodbye TM IF that happens.
Thanks
Soheil
Dear Soheil,
Very nice and heartfelt post....
Although,I thought differently, but I must admit,that Branko indeed will stay, and yes, should stay........!!!!( from now on )
The criticism of Branko always came from different camps !
1- people who wanted to be against,just to be against !!!!
2-people who truely wanted some one elss.

Although,Branko has not helped his case much lately, yet,I agree with you now,that one should judge,only after considering all variebles .

A=true streangth of our football.
B=shortcommings of our football.
c=level of possibilities under Iranian system.
D=Realistic view of abilities of alternatives.
F=the time at hand.

I now, totaly agree with you,that Branko should stay,as time can only be used wisely to better our perfomance,with Branko from now on.

Doctor DOOM

12-05-2005, 10:35 AM

zz jan, there is another category you left out :

3- ppl who want the team to perform at a higher level.
these ppl dont really care who is in charge, as long as the TEAM plays good football.
be it x or y or even branko.
if the team plays good football, and its defects are removed , then who cares who has done it.
let it be faraki.
I dont care.

but the question is : is faraki or x or y capable ?
has branko been able to correct all those mistakes and shortcomings?
considering the long time he's had with the team, it is only fair to demand why all those defects ......... lets say they have been addressed , but NOT CORRECTED

and the way things are going, with time passing us by so quickly, and the games getting near, I'm afraid we may see a lot more give up.
my threshold is/was Dec 2005.
come jan 2006, most probably I will give up too.

but is it a good thing?
ppl throwing their hands in the air in exasperation and settling for something ( a team with many areas defective, and its fate full of doubt and worry ) that COULD have been far better , had it been handled better ?

I guess considering Iran's history and experiences, we are destined for such fates !!
and not only in sports, but socially and politically as well !

zzgloo

12-05-2005, 11:10 AM

My dear DR.
the time left, is not sufficient to change the total class of our football, as that may need yet another 4, to 8 years.....or even more !!!
The level of our football,that our " Omid team " played against the youth of kuwiat, just two days ago, is true level of our football......
now, you tell me.....is that level going to fool anybody in the world cup ?
The catagory you mentioned, goes under the catagory of " people who truly want some one elss ".....
We, should not just wish for mircle or supper metamorphysis at this point., nor should we feel so intimidated already,and concider ourseleves lost.
We should shoot for, the best performance " The best team in asia " could possibly offer.....thats all.....
If, we are going to be DOOMED !, lets be DOOMED for what we realy are !!,which is a powerful team in ASIA....and not just, elianated team who wants to pretent to be Holland !!

maij

12-05-2005, 12:46 PM

Ali Agha......bi khiyal.

Doctor DOOM

12-05-2005, 12:49 PM

hehehe :)

zz jan, ironically I dont think we are DOOMED ! :)

and we certainly dont require any metamorphosis or miracle for our short term future ( WC games ) .

yes, there are many things that are doggin the team, but many issues can be rectified WITHOUT going back to fundamentals.
( I agree, our fundamentals are not exactly strong and we need some infra-structural work desparately )

for example the issue of placing players out of their natural positions, which renders them useless or in the least, reduces their usefulness.
this certainly does NOT need "back to the roots" remedy.

or branko's laj-baazi concerning some players and some positions.
these issues dont need such drastic and over-whelming cures, and can be corrected with a change of philosophy and attitude on his part ( hence my category that said "those who dont care who, even branko, as long as he proves more flexible and less laj-baaz" )

testing an alternative for the GK, and providing enough motivation, in the form of competition for the spot, really doesnt call for fundamental build up.
that can be done in a jiffy.

THESE are many of the problems our team is suffering, and luckily , they are NOT as un-doable as branko and his supporters make it out to be.

yes, our players need to learn professionalism, and for that we need time and a lot of "right ppl" at club level.
but right now, TM needs such fixes that are imminently possible.

===========

I absolutely agree on the goal of "being the best asian representative" at the WC.
I am fine with that.
I dont ask for semifinals.
hell, I dont even ask for quarter finals.

what I ask for, personally, is a SERIOUS attempt to reach the next round.
just one round.
I dont think I am being flighty or over-demanding here.
and almost all those who are worried about the team are asking for this only.

nobody is asking for anything more.

a SERIOUS attempt.
which means the team shd show they are not afraid of teams like n korea, bahrain, panama .... .
the team shd be able to show great football against third rate nations' B team.

GREAT football. not some mess with no plans or harmony or team movement, that we saw.

a serious attempt that means the team shows POSITIVE evolution with each passing period.
I'm afraid TM's "evolution" in the past year and half has been more negative and regress than anything else.

and I dont think kia is any lesser than what he was last year.
hell , karimi is twice or thrice better than last year, now that he has become a team player, with stamina and energy and ...
even daei seems to be in better shape than last yr
and .... and so on .

so why is the team under-peforming?
( plz dont say it is becoz we didnt change our avatars to branko's face !!! :) )

VivaItalia

12-05-2005, 01:20 PM

Dear DD,

I was very concerned about your ADD (Attention Defecit Disorder), how are you doing? Is the doctor treating you well? I deelpy hope that you feel better after finishing all the therapy sessions.

Regards

PS. Dear DD, please note that this thread is not about the polls, Karimi, elections, Majority and Minority. Please pay attention more (if you can). Thank you soooo much. But if you have any questions about the polls, I'll be more than glad to help/teach you in the relevant thread.

Doctor DOOM

12-05-2005, 01:50 PM

why thank you very much, for asking.

I seem to be doing great.

:)

my doc, however, expressely ordered me to continue to avoid getting into immature discussions, even when others become so.

faraz

12-05-2005, 02:19 PM

c'mon guys, this ongoing thing between u 2 is getting ridiculous - in every thread too.

I know it's none of my business, but can't you guys just let it go? I don't really know who started what, who said what, who did what, all i know is that in many of the good threads, these sorts of things are coming up, and i don't think they're necessarily necessary. I know you 2 have opposing views and that's okay, but neither seem to respect the other's opinion.

VivaItalia

12-05-2005, 02:22 PM

why thank you very much, for asking.

I seem to be doing great.

:)

my doc, however, expressely ordered me to continue to avoid getting into immature discussions, even when others become so.

That is a fantastic news darling.

Amirza

12-05-2005, 02:43 PM

Now..this the kind of extremely cheap shot that immensely pisses me off
What you are saying is nothing short of slanderous, insulting pack of lies and offensive to me.

Dear Maij - I am sorry if you are offended - those words were certainly meant to be offensive - but not towrds you, the press or any other victim of such manipulative methods of oppressing voices. The attack was targeted at IFF and anyone who abuses any system which disfavours those who crtiticize them. The IFF ruling body is part of the same menatlity which kills journalists - for voicing a critical opinion.

Amirza

12-05-2005, 02:55 PM

3- ppl who want the team to perform at a higher level.
these ppl dont really care who is in charge, as long as the TEAM plays good football.
be it x or y or even branko.

Excellent response - DD Jaan

Who cares who the coach is - Fix the system. And I must disagree with those who say we have no time - Let's start fixing the system today. Fixing this system - may mean little to our upcoming WC matches - but then again it may be huge - don't undermine it. I know we can and will be limited by the time factor - but whose to say what the smallest adjustment can do to our team - especialy in this level of marginal and close competitions. Not that we are close to Brazil or the other top teams - but when you get to the next level of teams, on any given day, we can compete against any.

ARYA

12-05-2005, 05:33 PM

ARYA AGHA....did you say that you have been supporting Team melli for the past 40 years ????

Ay baba...damet garm....I thought I was the grand dad of this:bow: :bow:

You must have been playing against Marhoom Dehdari in your days :)

maij jan,

I only wish that I'd had the pleasure of playing against the likes of Parviz Dehdari, Mostafa Arab, Ghelichkhani, Kalani, Hejazi, etc. etc.

looking back I find myself very lucky to have watched these individuals and others alike playing their football live.

Don't you see, Iran's history in football is so rich and it saddens me to hear certain individuals, specifically ones who were not fortunate enough to have experienced what I have, downplay Iran's potential. We have so much more to offer than what some of us here let on, therefore, I can not in my right mind accept it when someone says that we are not that good, or that the IPL has not produced the right man for this or that position.

We are a country not new to football. We have such a glorious history in the sport so I know for a fact that we are a country not lacking in talent. Within the hundreds of thousands of Iranians currently playing football we are bound to have at the least two to tree candidates for each position on TM. What it therefore boils down to is a matter of preference.

Some of us here are just not satisfied with the inclusion of certain individuals in our current roster regardless of their lackluster performance on the TM pitch. We are not the coach, in that you are absolutly correct, but we will certainly voice both our pleasure and displeasures.

maij

12-06-2005, 09:34 AM

Dear Maij - I am sorry if you are offended - those words were certainly meant to be offensive - but not towrds you, the press or any other victim of such manipulative methods of oppressing voices. The attack was targeted at IFF and anyone who abuses any system which disfavours those who crtiticize them. The IFF ruling body is part of the same menatlity which kills journalists - for voicing a critical opinion.

I thought so:D :D :D

You are excused then :)

maij

12-06-2005, 10:11 AM

maij jan,

I only wish that I'd had the pleasure of playing against the likes of Parviz Dehdari, Mostafa Arab, Ghelichkhani, Kalani, Hejazi, etc. etc. .

Ahhh....you are singing my tune now.;)

Although I have missed Dehdari's playing days , the rest were all heros of mine and specially the outstanding Parviz Ghleechkhani....Like yourself, I also find myself very lucky to have seen different era of Iranian football.

Don't you see, Iran's history in football is so rich and it saddens me to hear certain individuals, specifically ones who were not fortunate enough to have experienced what I have, downplay Iran's potential. We have so much more to offer than what some of us here let on, therefore, I can not in my right mind accept it when someone says that we are not that good, or that the IPL has not produced the right man for this or that position.

Yes there is pedigree in Iranian football, but somehow such history is not necessarily an ingredient of your success. India, for example had football well before Iran. Success in football is very sophisticated and people who know the secrets are probably millionaires.

We are a country not new to football. We have such a glorious history in the sport so I know for a fact that we are a country not lacking in talent. Within the hundreds of thousand Iranians currently playing football we are bound to have at the least two to tree candidates for each position on TM. What it therefore boils down to is a matter of preference. .

In theory , this is correct. Practically ,it does not always work.
Uruguay with less than 2 million population has won the World Cup 2wice , while India never qualified for the WC, Chine qualified once only.

It is not about population... I am not really sure what ticks , although I have several theories.

Some of us here are just not satisfied with the inclusion of certain individuals in our current roster regardless of their lackluster performance on the TM pitch. We are not the coach, in that you are absolutely correct, but we will certainly voice both our pleasure and displeasures.

Very true.
As fans we express pleasure, satisfaction or dissatisfaction according to results or combination of results and performances. Even the degree of satisfaction is different from one fan to another and from one match to another. This is why we are here at such forums.

What I find quite disturbing and unreasonable , is when a coach is being attacked by the masses who under-estimate his intelligence and knowledge and dictating to him which player should he play !!!!

I don't find that attitude compatible with being a football fan. Furthermore, there are people who barely seen a few matches in their whole life , start act like professional theorists !!!!!

Never mind........ I simply have a different opinion and perspective about being a Team Melli fan.....and like I said.....the mere fact of watching them play gives me an immense pride and pleasure...... this feeling of mine has been like that for decades.

Doctor DOOM

12-06-2005, 10:35 AM

actually, majid jan, India was invited ( for sometime, countries were INVITED to world championships like fifa WC or olympics ) , but the indians declined !!
this invitation was extended since they had won the asian games gold ( I think Iran was eliminated in the earlier rounds ).
if I'm not mistaken, they also shared yet another asian gold with Iran.
I think it was in the 50's.

on another occasion, they attended the olympics football tourney, and some of their players, being used to playing barefooted, played the game with bare feet !

--------------

but I totally understand arya jan's mention of "pedigree".
right now, Iran is a pedigree team.
yes, we had our little dip, but we resurfaced in 96, and we havent looked back since.

like it or not, we ARE among the asia's royalty.
I think zz captured it perfectly, saying we at least shd aim to be the best ASIAN team at the games.
this is nothing flighty, and imminently do-able.
but we are NOT playing like royalty.
heck, at times we dont play like pretenders even !!
and we are NOT getting better !!

this is what worries ppl like us.
this is what concerns us, that in the biggest show , in front of billions, we display some haphazzard, confused and ultra-frightened football , ending up in Iran being ridiculed by the whole world !

maij

12-08-2005, 03:39 PM

this is what worries ppl like us.
this is what concerns us, that in the biggest show , in front of billions, we display some haphazzard, confused and ultra-frightened football , ending up in Iran being ridiculed by the whole world !

I think you are creating a doomsday scenario , Peyman Jan....

So what will happen to the likes of us if Team Melli is humiliated in the WC ??? My worst scenario will be a bunch of teen agers or delinquit juveniles teasing the Iranians for a while and some sh*t Head English Journalist By the name of Brian something demanding that FIFA reduces the number of Asian teams in the WC to 1 only !!!

So......Not exactly the end of the world , is it ????
Or maybe you should ask the Saudi's , who are getting freaking richer and richer everyday , despite their humilation in WC2002 :D

Not all the people of this world are the "Shishtaeee" type. There are grown ups , civilized and mature that live in this globe of ours....

Doctor DOOM

12-08-2005, 04:25 PM

majid jan, I would nt care about those juveniles.

I am bothered about us having a shot at doing something that many would talk about ( like nigeria, senegal, cameroon, turkey... ) , and WASTE it on being frightened.

waste it becoz dadkan and many others FORCED us with their attitude :
"so what if we dont make it to the olympics? the skies will not fall down to earth !! "
remember the very same words?
both MK and dadkan said it.

and how we rue our Omid team missing out on the olympics?
the Omid team that was arguably the strongest and most exciting one we've ever had.
all becoz of mismanagement and this attitude ; call it mediocre, call it inferiority complex, call it exaggerated humility, call it whatever u want.

why are YOU saying so what if we lose badly?
I'd have expected you to want TM to make a mark in football history.
I know I DO.

I ask WHY should we lose badly, when we have such stars in the team?

lets face it, I doubt we'd get a much better gathering of experience, youth and exposed pro's in the same team for a long time.

WHY waste it on a mediocre mentality and approach ?

no, the world will not come to an end.
no, none of us ( hopefully ) will commit suicide either.
we all will get up and cheer for the team the next time they have a game, also.

but we WILL rue.
we will damn our .... "luck" ( or vision, or stubbornness, or attitude, oir .... ;) ) for the LOST OPPORTUNITY.

ARYA

12-08-2005, 08:38 PM

I think you are creating a doomsday scenario , Peyman Jan....

So what will happen to the likes of us if Team Melli is humiliated in the WC ??? My worst scenario will be a bunch of teen agers or delinquit juveniles teasing the Iranians for a while and some sh*t Head English Journalist By the name of Brian something demanding that FIFA reduces the number of Asian teams in the WC to 1 only !!!

So......Not exactly the end of the world , is it ????
Or maybe you should ask the Saudi's , who are getting freaking richer and richer everyday , despite their humilation in WC2002 :D

Not all the people of this world are the "Shishtaeee" type. There are grown ups , civilized and mature that live in this globe of ours....

Oh my God in Heaven:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:what are you saying maij

So what will happen to the likes of us if Team Melli is humiliated in the WC??? What kind of an attitude is this for a Team Melli fan??

You are comparing the views of others, which happen to be different than yours, along with our analysis of an incompetent organization such as the IFF and an ineffective coaching mentality, as doomsday mentality. Is that what we portray to you when we bring to light certain aspect of the TM game which in everyone’s opinion require strengthening?

No, it would not be the end of all life as we know it, should TM get humiliated at the WC. We will all pick ourselves up and cheer for our TM at the very next game, but would you feel indifferent if such a thing were to happen?? Of course you wouldn’t, you will be devastated.

I don’t believe the picture you wish to portray by your above statement is that you feel indifferent about TM’s fortunes, on the contrary, I know you to be quite a devoted fan. Nor will I accept that you have given in and have thrown in the towel before the big event itself. Therefore, I can only assume that the above statement is meant to render individuals such as us fans who are critical, irrational.

maij

12-10-2005, 06:36 AM

I asked a simple question , but got no answer for my question. What will happen if we lose big time ?

I offered a scenario or an answer , but all I got from you is something like : HOW DARE YOU ASK THIS QUESTION ?

C'mon then , answer this question.

I did not say that I will be a happy man if TM looses big time , please do not twist my answer to indicate that I will be the happiest man in the world if we lose big time !!!!!!

Doctor DOOM

12-10-2005, 10:44 AM

majid jan, I think both me and arya answered you.

the answer was : the skies will not fall down to earth and the world would not end.
we would still cheer and scream for our TM, no matter what.

but that does not say we shd NOT try to achieve something either.

hence the question ; how and why would you asdk such a Q.

coz to have such a mentality at the onset, we have already set the scene for a mediocre and mundane campaign of 3 games, and coming back home.

especially after this draw, I think we DO have a chance to advance.
and if we DONT UTILIZE it , I know many ppl like me, will fell hard done, disappointed and look at it as a great opportunity lost for mediocre and inferior attitude.

zzgloo

12-10-2005, 03:16 PM

Just three months ago, Argentina beat Brazil 4 to one...and little later Brazil beat argentina 3 - 0..........but, I did not see any one them crying !!!
In my opnion ,no team in this world cup is going to be humiliated !!,actualy the possibility of obsets are much higher !!!........
Watch out for the Costa-Rica to obset the germans in the germany,on the very first day !!!!!!!!!!!

ramingeles2000

12-11-2005, 05:34 PM

martin reza...one of the only voices of reason on this entire board...i commend you, sir.

Branko has proven himself. Every coach has to get started somewhere. All the 'replacements' everyone on this board has suggested, weren't born world class coaches. Branko is well on his way to becoming one...having led a team that failed to qualify to wc2002, and a team that lost its quarterfinal match in the asian cup 2000 to the world cup and to 3rd place, is definitely on the route to being world class.

shame on you who call him a 'third class eastern european coach'. he's better than we've ever had.

Doctor DOOM

12-12-2005, 10:24 AM

ramin jan, nobody denies the reality that everyone has to start from somewhere.
ths issue of having enough experience to deal with all the TOP tier coaches at the WC is one.
but this, just by itself is no reason to not consider branko.

and I am sure if the team was performing well no-one would have minded much. so TM's perfpormance is the second issue.

but to come up short on BOTH issues ( coupled with an extremely light weight support staff - can be the third issue ) makes one worry and concerned.

Amirza

12-12-2005, 10:25 AM

VivaItalia

12-12-2005, 02:37 PM

Once again the Iranian community is proving to love the "NO ACTION" alternative !! :D :D

Yes go ahead and sit on your butts for another 6 months - excersie your favorite option: Do NOTHING !!

Go ahead and justify your "Give-UP" attitude, and the lack of WILL and DRIVE towards betterment - by sewing the sky to earth.

Better sit on butt than doing something destructive! I was 3 years old during the revolution and was not certainly involved in it, but I can point my fingure at you or the likes of you for bringing this misery to us!

So, I like YOU to sit on your butt and do nothing, please! No more, specially in football! We (75%, Majority!) want this group to continue what they are doing and you guys (25%) MUST respect it.

Amirza

12-12-2005, 03:41 PM

maij

12-12-2005, 03:57 PM

Peyman jan.....I don't have any reason to doubt the ability of Team Melli to do well in Germany , however , if , heaven forbids , they do not do well or if they fall short of my expectation ( notice ...My expectation) I shall still and will always support this team regardless.....I am NOT supporting this team purely based on Performance or achievement. There is more to it than that.

Like any fan , I DO want my team to do well , win trophies and honors. I set my ceiling of expectation realistically to be compatible with the basis of support of this team.

If I want to be clever, I can always claim that this team, the federation, the managers and people associated with the team are INCOMPETENT and will not answer our aspiration. Comes July 2006 I will be jumping in joy after TM is eliminated from the group stages or the next round ,by saying "I told you so …I told you this team will not achieve anything under this management!!" ........

What have I have personally achieved by this mentality? glory or self esteem ??? In reality , Nothing. …..The easiest thing in life is to be super critical , cuz you are on the safe side . It is so easy to criticize other peoples deeds and achievements and we are a culture that excel in that.

The team has won the third place in Asian Cup, won the gold medal in Asian games, ranked way up to 17th in FIFA ranking, qualified for the WC and still there is a large amount of criticism targeted at it, claiming it is under-achieving because………..Nosrati should be playing in right back and the team is not playing attractive football!!! ( or whatever the critique is )

There is a very remote possibility for the likes of yourself to support this team with such mentality. I am not saying that what you are thinking is a sin, and I am certainly not the type to demand that one must be sitting fat , dumb & happy about obvious shortcomings in TM or against acts that is insulting the fan's intelligense. What I find disturbing is the volume of criticism and what I preceive as unfair treatment and failure to recognize acheivements of the man who took TM to the World Cup.

In a country where none of the clubs own a football stadium, and where government virtually own all the teams, where players play football on pitches more suited to military excercise grounds, where footballers do NOT get paid for months, where players life are at risk at some matches, where fans are always in danger, where the TV recognizes 2 teams only for match broadcast, where there are much more dire priorities for the masses, where people find it difficult to make ends meet........ (do you want me to go on ???)

Under such circumstances, I consider the fact that Iran is amongst the World Elite in Football as an honor and an achievement in itself .

Enjoy.

VivaItalia

12-12-2005, 04:27 PM

Actualy Viava Italia - that 1978 revolution was also the result of us NOT DOING ANYTHING !! we simply sat around and watched a PLO supported minority take over our country - hoping for the best. Just as you are doing for this football team.

But here is the similarity here:

Shah was doing good (relatively) and a bunch of DD alikes wanted a better change! and here was the result!
and now, Branko and co are doing good (relatively) and again a bunch of DD alikes want a change for better! I don't wanna see the results again! Our history has shown that whenever a group in our nation ask for a change for better, worst things happen! am I wrong? show me an oposite case!

Thank god, that 99% has changed to 25% during this 26 years!

zereshk-ali

12-12-2005, 04:59 PM

Our history has shown that whenever a group in our nation ask for a change for better, worst things happen! am I wrong? show me an oposite case!

How about the overwhelming majority in support of Mossadegh being made Prime Minister and backing his nationalisation of the oil industry?

VivaItalia

12-12-2005, 05:08 PM

How about the overwhelming majority in support of Mossadegh being made Prime Minister and backing his nationalisation of the oil industry?

That's the key point in your post.
But we have more falures than success in our history, a lot more.

and who is the Mossadegh of Iran's football? Mayeli kohan or Jalali? :rolleyes:

or maybe the very Branko Ivankovic. and whom is majority supporting? Branko, right?

Amirza

12-12-2005, 05:09 PM

But here is the similarity here:

Shah was doing good (relatively) and a bunch of DD alikes wanted a better change! and here was the result!
and now, Branko and co are doing good (relatively) and again a bunch of DD alikes want a change for better! I don't wanna see the results again! Our history has shown that whenever a group in our nation ask for a change for better, worst things happen! am I wrong? show me an oposite case!

So based on your logic (or lack of it) we must never try to make anything better in Iran - right ?

Just a side note - we have a bunch of great players - but we don't have a good team !! guess why ? :D

VivaItalia

12-12-2005, 05:47 PM

So based on your logic (or lack of it) we must never try to make anything better in Iran - right ?

Just a side note - we have a bunch of great players - but we don't have a good team !! guess why ? :D

"Better" is a relative word you are using. I call it stupidity! to give up a good thing you have in order get a maybe better thing (considering the sitiations and the limitations in Iran), is simply stupidity!

Bring Capello, give him money to have whatever friendly games he needs, give him freedom to do whatever he wants, and I am with you all the way! But the way you guys speak on the air, is simply illogical, selfish and from stomach!

Just a side note: We have some great players, we have a relatively good team, but our fans think that we must beat the heck out of Brazil and every other team, guess why?! I know, Iranians are Khoda. :eyebrows:

We are close to get banned from the WC and DDs call for friendly games against Big countries! this reminds me of:
Yaaroo ro too deh raah nemidadan, soraghe khooneye kadkhoda ro migereft!

fsec

12-12-2005, 06:00 PM

Yel mooye sar e brtanko be sad hezaar jalili va mayel e goh (va) an miarzeh. Yek nafas az branko mohemtar az sad hezaar baisji parast o khaa'en hast.

The reason is not for TM to do well or not, it is to destroy Iranian people's happiness and make them a broken nation. At the moment TM is their pride and joy, their hope and happiness in a miserable existence enforced by basij parast. All you have to do is see the celebrations after qualification to know that to rule, these pig excrements have to destroy the people's will by any method or means at their disposal.

Traitrous scum.

Doctor DOOM

12-12-2005, 11:01 PM

there was once a philosopher who said :

"change is inevitable, but growth is optional."

a world of wisdom in the saying, and certainly worth pondering..... even for those who havent taken the "option" yet & have stayed juvenile...... even when life's milestones are passed !

=============

majid jan,

bro, I remember saying it before:
everything is relative.

the frequency of criticism is directly proportional to the frequency of mistakes and failures.

and the volume of criticism by X is directly proportional to Y's blind support or excuse fabrication or false propoganda.

You are a level headed fellow, so if asked, I am sure you can judge that the more Y's do their stuff, the more x's reciprocate.
and vice versa, I must say.

everything is relative.

cheers

zzgloo

12-13-2005, 02:02 AM

I used to be very out spoken about TM should change Branko,and lack of ability by Branko to present something new.....yet, I realy have given up on that position, and now, would like to give Branko the benefit of the doubt,and hope,he could at least ready TM for the world cup to at least play in a same level they did during the asian championships....
I agree now, that time now is for unity,and support of what we have now,and get as ready as we can be for the WC.....I do realize that considering the system in Iran, Branko has survived well,and some how has learned to work ( although not so well ) within that system.....
I recommand to those who believe Branko will under-represent us to come to terms with Branko's head coaching, and like it or not,support him, and pull for TM to do its best,under this cicumstances......
I also,recommand,Non-stop ! branko supporters, to stop saying ' I told you so ", and not give in to the Idea that this is the best TM could have possibly be,and not try to be master of wisdom ! for others....as non of us can prove the alternative would have worked, or not-worked ....

Amirza

12-13-2005, 02:54 PM

VivaItalia

12-13-2005, 03:29 PM

Viva
There is another famous persian saying:
margo begir ta taraf be tab razi besheh !!
You are satisfied with Branco - only because you are scared of Mayeli Kodan or Talebi to be the alternative. Our youth have been forced/formated to be content - not just in football but in just about every aspect of life. The catastrophy is that you know we have PROBLEMS, yet you choose not to do anything about it - why ? because you have seen things get worse. Well my younger brother - you have successfuly been formatted to be content - neutralized - Razi be Tab. Not me and others like me - I will not accept Tab, Larz or Marg. ;)
And as I said - people like me will win and we shall change things - if not in this WC - then the next one. The seeds have been planted.

Not at all.
I am happy with Branko, cuz he has brought us VICTORY, he has brough us trophies and I believe that he can do more. He has not still finished his job and I believe that he MUST given a chance to finish whatever he has been cooking for 4 years. I believe that whoever comes instead of Branko CAN NOT be more successfull than him considering the amount of time Branko has spent with all the players in Iran, the amount of time he has spent watching the league games, checking the players and getting to know them. I believe that he has the knowledge, right attitude, and experience of how to deal with Iranians and their football. I believe that if someone is doing a good job, he must be kept until he blows it. Do you consider losing against Macedonia's B team in a friendly game a blow?! I don't. What did you say after Jordan's game, where his miraculus subs worked? What about Qatar game? Oman? Korea? Japan? Germany? were you thinking that He can't do the job? or you were picking on Nosrati, Daei and Mirzapour?

Anyways, you choose to fight against the wish of 75% of your own people and if it's not the way YOU want, back-stab them till the last moment and wish for their failure in order to say "didi, didi man dorost migoftam! man khodaam". But I choose to support my team (including the coach, and including Enayati whom I hate the most, if he gets selected), I'll stand behind them, enjoy of their games and honor every single of them.

Mr.Good

12-13-2005, 04:16 PM

But I choose to support my team (including the coach, and including Enayati whom I hate the most, if he gets selected), I'll stand behind them, enjoy of their games and honor every single of them.

Now thats what I call a true fan, Barvo Ali

Amirza

12-13-2005, 04:52 PM

ARYA

12-13-2005, 05:24 PM

Viva, here's some food for thought!!

"Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted the indifference of those who should have known better the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most that has made it possible for evil to triumph."

"Most people would rather be certain they're miserable, than risk being happy."

"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."

VivaItalia

12-13-2005, 06:36 PM

viva,
don't kid yourself into believing we hane no problems. For me - the Unconditional love and support starts when the team gets to Germany - until then I will do anythiing I can to fix the problems - and to improve things.

Amirza khan,

Did I ever say "we have no problem"? please show me when and where? If you could quote me, I am willing to 1- give my Moderation right to whomever you like 2- leave the website and kiss everyones feet here.

So, please do not kid yourself and make up words from my mouth, thank you my friend.

No. I also believe that whiners remain whiner and supporters remain supporter. You along DD and some others will remain in the first group, always and forever; Never happy about anything. I look at the half filled glass and smile, you look at the half empty and cry, try to fight, win and fill it up (even if you have no access to any water sources, you just try to fill it up with urine so it'll at least look filled!)

Doctor DOOM

12-13-2005, 06:48 PM

I cant understand why ppl confuse two DISTINCT issues :

1- supporting the team

2- wanting better quality

I mean, exactly how hard is it to keep these two distinct issues separate?
believe me, it is NOT hard.

so while viva jan, tries to say if you criticise the coach, it means you dont support the team and wish them ill, it NOT necessarily is true.

can anyone support the team and wish them well and cheer for them, WHILE wanting better quality and performances, and correction of all its defects?

how hard is this concept to grasp?

anything can be spun.
one may be able to spin it this way too:
if you keep quiet while the team is suffering ( quality wise ) , you are dealing it great harm.
to stand and watch a man suffer with disease, and say nothing ( just becoz we like the doctor !!!!! ) , to me is criminal and extremely narrow-minded.

na aghayoon.
we all love and support the team.

some of us dont bother to question things as we are afraid things may get worse - not necessarily true , .......... and some of us question things and want many issues to improve and get corrected. and if we dont see that happening to our beloved TM, we criticise ppl who are in charge of such matters for their inabilities ( or refusal ).

can any SANE man say either party loves the team less?
no.

however, it shows one's extent ( or lack of it ) of maturity to start labeling those who dont agree with him.
and speak as if only THEY care about the TM and others dont.
which reminds me of Bush's speach : you are either with us or against us ( which is supposed to mean against liberty, justice, freedom, blah blah, blah ... ) !!!
how many ppl follow that kind of thought?

VivaItalia

12-13-2005, 07:24 PM

One problem could be that you guys don't consider Branko as part of the team.

How could you say "oh, I don't like this part of it, lets change it regardless of what other people want" this is an absolute selfish act. you have absolutely the same amount of share that I have from TM, nothing more and nothing less. But you are trying to take away my rights to satisfy yours. this is a crime.

Now you tell me DD jan, there are 100 people exist, 75 of them like to eat oranges and 25 of them like to eat apples, and we have only one choice (and not two!) either to buy orange or apple. What do you choose to buy? apple?!

Now, if you go to sky and come back to earth 1000 times a day, the majority still want Branko. Also the majority want changes and improvements from the same Branko and no one else. the same majority are sick and tiered of whiners and morale-damagers. They wanna hear good things plus constructive criticism, not criticism coming from aversion, not criticism from scumbags Mayeli-kohan and Jalali.

I call a person a supporter when I see him pointing out both good and bad things. so far it has been all whines and hostility toward the man and some players.

All I know is that criticism should not be made the way you guys do it. It must be in a friendly manner and should not be demoralizing.

Mr.Good

12-13-2005, 07:45 PM

I have a couple of points and would like your opinions on them..

Some of us here want a new coach, a very famous one. Now this coach comes and picks the same Nosrati, the same Mirza, the same formation for the team, then what? are we going to change him again because he did not pick our faviorte player?

The coach has the right to pick any system of play and pick any group of players that suite his plans. Who are we to dictate him his job. It is up to IFF to chnage him if he cannot meet the goals set for him. So far Branko has met his goals. We cannot stop him from completing his plans.
--------------------------------------------------
He said the work is divided in three phases.
** Phase one was to qualify for the world cup and he delivered. (Whats your point against this?)

** Phase two is to prepare the team for the world cup. He did not finish the preparation yet. The work just started. He needs to get infos on the teams we are going to face and set plans and tactics to face them. He did not take the first step yet and there are people whinning about it already. TM does not have friendlies to play, blame the IFF, our goverement..

** Phase three will be a good performance in the world cup. Branko's team has always showed good performances in tournaments because he had time to prepare the team for it. Players come from different teams with different tactics and systems of plays. They need time to play well toghether. after all they are Human, not machines.

Before Busan Branko had the team for a month, played a WAFF championship in preparation in which the team did not show a good performance, and finally got the gold medal in Busan, Every one hailed Branko for the success.

Before AC in China, again Branko had the team for a month, played a WAFF, then had a good performance in China and won the Bronze medal. Every one hailed Branko for that also. Remember, just before AC we had the WCQ with Jordan in Tehran which we lost, majority wanted Branko's head for that loss, why every one shifted 180 degrees after that.

Amirza

12-13-2005, 08:29 PM

"Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted the indifference of those who should have known better the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most that has made it possible for evil to triumph."

"Most people would rather be certain they're miserable, than risk being happy."

"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."

Exellent post Arya Jaan - I hope members read it twice.

One problem I see with our football fans - is the fact that they don't quiet grasp what professional football is all about. They fail to realize today's football is a science in which tactics, plans, and plays are keys, while evey square meter of the field in every game is accounted for. While many of us are crying over our "mindless" football - they are still hoping such factors as Player Gheyrat, Roohieh, players getting to know each other in friendly games,.... bring them success.

Our fans need to understand in today's pro football all motivation related factors combined account for maybe 5% of the game - and even at that - they need to recognize what keeps a pro footballer motivated. A player like Kazemian which has not been paid his salary for nearly a full year - has little motivation to be jeoperdized by any newspaper article.

zzgloo

12-13-2005, 09:14 PM

Although,hireing of real madrid coach was just a roomer....yet, " ta nabashad chizaki, mardam nabandand ..........!!!! "
I wonder, if Branko thinks of this roomer as just a roomer....and his trust in his job security and IFF.

Doctor DOOM

12-14-2005, 12:45 AM

1- no rights are being trampled upon if we ask ppl in charge to fix the problems, or if they cant, to ship out.
I am assuming we all want the good of the TEAM, and not any person or part of it.

----------------------------
2- branko ke sahleh … even if Daei is found to be unable to help the team, I would want him to sit out.

---------------------------
3- the imaginary 75 ( coz we know it is less than that now. And far far less, elsewhere ) out of 100 , have their own rights.
So do the 25.
No-1 shd say neither side should speak their minds.
The issue of going against the majority comes into play when I become the head of IFF and have the power to “exercise” my will, albeit, contrary to the majority’s.
THEN, ppl can question me and demand me following the majority.

( and not always majority is on the side of right. Ask those who voted “aye” to I.R.I. 28 yrs back )

---------------------------
4- as for the “majority” we all know it is not as big as it was, and shd the trend continue, they would find themselves in MINORITY !

this actual lessening of the % shd tell us a lot of things.
Now, if we want to DENY reality and refute or ignore it, it is a diff matter.
But there IS a REASON for this decrease.

Why not consider this REASON, for a moment?

------------------------
5- I don’t see any whiners here.
All I see is a set of ppl who are happy with the current situation at TM and its performances.
And another set who are NOT happy and want more.

Labeling ppl , just becoz they don’t share our view is not an attractive quality.

Becoz once the barrier is broken, we shd expect the same treatment from others too.
For example, these ppl who are accused of “whinning” :confused: , may turn around and call those who take whatever that is given to them, no matter how defective and not utter a beep, “sheep” or “too sari khor” !

And as they say: an eye for an eye, makes the whole world blind.

--------------------
6- friendly is as it sees or receives.

A very important point.

One side discusses its views.
If the other tries ridiculing, labeling, accusing, berating, name-calling, …., only an utter fool would expect the first party to keep quiet and not react.

------------------
7- ey baba …. Mrgood jan, you’ve gone back to the (now) age-old question of “have we tried and tested all our options” and come up empty?

There are a gezillion threads on this.
When for more than 2 yrs we see only 2-3 ppl tested for a position, and more often than not, they fail in that role.
And yet, no-one else is seriously tested , one starts to wonder and asks questions.

Yes, some may not ask.
But then again, some WILL.
And thank god for that.

If another coach comes and SERIOUSLY tests a few others for these troubled spots, and finally settles with the same players, then so be it.
But we know we have NOT tested anyone else seriously.

some will argue for it, some against it.
The fact is in almost all matches of TM, we see only the USUAL 2 or 3 players given ample time to perform. And they fail more often than not.
To persist with a failed option, WITHOUT testing others forces many to question branko.

-----------------------

8- phase 3 is in SERIOUS jeopardy.
This is apparent from the trend of performances by the team.

To deny the REALITY, is just ………. ( u may fill in the blank urself )

Amirza

12-14-2005, 09:43 AM

Some of us here want a new coach, a very famous one. Now this coach comes and picks the same Nosrati, the same Mirza, the same formation for the team, then what? are we going to change him again because he did not pick our faviorte player?

Wrong -
we don't just want a new coach for the sake of having a new coach. We want someone who can bring about some sense and logic into our football. We want organization, planning. Now there are top class coaches who can bring it all while even influencing IFF into having better structure and organization - but for the sake of this WC, I personaly am willing to settle for someone who can bring new tactics and plays - so we are no longer limited ONLY to long crosses to score. I want someone who has the ability to analyze the opposition and prepare the best possible team and gameplan to defeat that opposition. Note that if the ultimate gameplan requires the services of Nosrati and Mirza - I will have no problems with that. Remember - Great coaches don't make teams out of the players they have - they think of the team they want and get they players who fit into their team.

Doctor DOOM

12-14-2005, 11:05 AM

Wrong -
we don't just want a new coach for the sake of having a new coach. We want someone who can bring about some sense and logic into our football. We want organization, planning. Now there are top class coaches who can bring it all while even influencing IFF into having better structure and organization - but for the sake of this WC, I personaly am willing to settle for someone who can bring new tactics and plays - so we are no longer limited ONLY to long crosses to score. I want someone who has the ability to analyze the opposition and prepare the best possible team and gameplan to defeat that opposition. Note that if the ultimate gameplan requires the services of Nosrati and Mirza - I will have no problems with that. Remember - Great coaches don't make teams out of the players they have - they think of the team they want and get they players who fit into their team.

now, this is what I'd call a "perfect post".

ramingeles2000

12-19-2005, 02:30 AM

everyone here is overrating what a coach can do...especially with less than 6 months to prepare...cut the crap guys...branko has been in iran for SO long that even if he is a terrible coach, he knows enough that he has put at least one of the best squads possible out there. give me a break. there's only so much we can do. arab nations get th ebest coaches all the time and they still suck. jesus christ guys, the difference between 0 points and 5 points in our group isnt the coach, its how we play on that day and whether fortune and opportunity come together.

zzgloo

12-19-2005, 08:38 AM

I for one, can not live by hope of good fortun and luck..!,niether any oneels who looks for progress.....
have you all ever wondered,why Nigeria, and cameroon, and sengal....did not qualify ?????, they replaced thier good forign coaches for domestic ones.!!!

Doctor DOOM

12-20-2005, 07:22 PM

يادداشت
انگار مرغ آقاى برانكو هنوز يك پا دارد
على رئيسى
برانكو ايوانكوويچ، سرمربى مورد پسند سازمان و فدراسيون فوتبال براى آنكه بتواند اين دلپسندى را به جامعه فوتبال و دوستداران فوتبال تسرى دهد، بايد نگاه تازه اى به سياست هاى قبلى خود بيندازد.
برانكو پس از بازيهاى دوستانه تهران و باخت به مقدونيه اين فرض را براى خود به وجود آورد كه نياز به تغيير رفتار دارد.
اما به محض اينكه تا حدودى آب ها از آسياب افتاد و زير پاهاى خود را محكم تر از آن روزها ديد، در موضعگيرى هاى جديدش چنان وانمود مى كند كه او قصد ندارد تا در اين مدت باقيمانده تا جام جهانى روال و شيوه گذشته خود را تغيير دهد.
او خوب مى داند كه تمام منتقدان او، روزهاى پايانى عمر مربيگرى او در تهران را پيش رو دارند، بايد با آنها به نوعى كنار آمد تا اين چند ماه باقيمانده هم سپرى شود. در اين موضعگيرى توجه به خواست عمومى مردم از درجه اهميت ويژه اى برخوردار است، اما آقاى برانكو، اين ضرورت را نيز حس نمى كند.
او تلويحاً از بازيكنان قبلى خود دفاع مى كند چشم به روى بهترين هاى ليگ مى بندد و حرف هاى او درباره كريم باقرى را مى شود نمونه اى از اين بى توجهى قلمداد كرد.
وقتى درباره يكى از بازيكنان شاخص ليگ، اينگونه اظهار نظر مى شود، در واقع تعريف تيم ملى دچار اشكال مى شود.
اگر بپذيريم كه تيم ملى، تيمى است مردمى كه از بين بهترين هاى فوتبال يك مملكت انتخاب شده است آن وقت اين پرسش به وجود مى آيد كه اين بهترين ها در كجا جاى دارند و چگونه است كه ضعيف ترين ها در بعضى از پست ها جاى بهترين ها را اشغال مى كنند. براى علاقه مندان و دوستداران تيم ملى اين ضرورت نيز به وجود مى آيد كه نسبت به آينده تيم ملى نگران باشند.
اگر ما نتوانيم، زبده ترين نفرات خود را به مصاف بهترين هاى دنيا بفرستيم اگر ما در فاصله باقيمانده نتوانيم انگيزه رقابتى در نزد نفرات خود را بالا ببريم خواسته يا ناخواسته رشد تيم ملى خود را به نوعى متوقف يا كند كرده ايم، اگر بازيكنان ما خود را در دايره رقابت حس نكنند و اگر بازيكنان ما در پست هاى خود احساس امنيت خاطر داشته باشند و در رقابت قرار نگيرند، شرايط بهتر شدن رشد كيفى و رو به جلو رفتن از تيم ملى ما سلب خواهد شد.
لذا بايد توجه داد كه تصميم گيرندگان تيم ملى براى برانكو حرف هاى گذشته را مرور كنند